Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

I've just had a look at the "article 50 " briefing document. ((Mainly because, I wasn't entirely convinced about the claim in a post this morning (since removed), that the UK couldn't rejoin after 5 years)).

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/...2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

And it states.

1. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49

With regards to the claim/assertion that the government where wrong/undemocratic with respect to requiring only >50% to trigger such a monumental change, it appears the EU can’t be criticised for making the same mistake.

The Council decides to conclude the agreement with a 'super qualified majority, without the participation of the state concerned. The qualified majority is defined in this case as at least 72% of the members of the Council, comprising at least 65% of the population of the Member States (without the withdrawing state) (Article 238(3)b TFEU).

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Perhaps we need the Lib Dems again?

I'll get me coat

Bruce

Crikey! The LibDems! Whatever happened to them?

Actually, whatever happened to George Osborne, our smirking Chancellor?

Romi posted:

The petition is now reaching 3 million signings, I hope it rolls on into an avalanche of signings so that Parliament will be forced to consider a second referendum.  It might even be welcomed, a sort of equivalent to get out of jail free card in Monopoly.

So then we call for a petition from all those not wanting to revisit the referendum. We know for sure the upside there is about 17 mil. signers. Did they not even teach the basic concepts of democracy to you during your schooling?

This by the way is why we have representative democracy rather than direct democracy ( everyone voting on everything). The inflamed passions of the crowd don't always result in good/rational  decision making.

Everyone calm down and take a few days off. Look,at it again in a week or so,when the rhetoric of the 7/24 media barrage has moved on to the next crisis.

Britain is a great country and will come through this just fine. Might even be giving us all a good lesson in listening to one's citizens as a whole not just those that agree with us.

Kevin-W posted:

Actually, whatever happened to George Osborne, our smirking Chancellor?

He’s probably in some darkened dungeon with Theresa May, plotting Boris’s undoing.  

Big Arse. Big Dog. Big Bite.

Kevin-W posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Perhaps we need the Lib Dems again?

I'll get me coat

Bruce

Crikey! The LibDems! Whatever happened to them?

Actually, whatever happened to George Osborne, our smirking Chancellor?

It's probably against forum rules to provide a link, but have a look at the daily mash

Oops, edit: The Canary, not the Daily Mash. But the latter is worth a look too, as an oasis of sense in a mad world.

MDS posted:

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

In fairness to the rest of the EU, those governments will be concerned that protracting the exit will also protract the uncertainty that will hurt their economies so I can understand their call to get on with it.  And it does seem a bit cheeky for us (the UK) to puff up our demands of EU reform before holding the referendum and then say we will work at the pace of the Conservative party annual conference before formally executing the result.  

There must also be a lot of emotion in this, even at the the top of governments.  The result of this referendum is akin to one partner in a marriage saying they are suing for a divorce.  The other party can be forgiven for feeling rejected and acting accordingly.  

Oh, and I should add I'm also stunned and deeply disappointed at the result.  This is going to be one very messy divorce with many unintended consequences. 

Mike

Mike, what's interesting is that the most bellicose statements - Schulz, Juncker etc - have been coming from the EUrocracy. Individual nations have been more conciliatory - Merkel, for example, this morning. It is in everyone's best interest that our exit (providing it happens of course) is conducted calmly and amicable. We are not, after all, leaving Europe, just the EU.

Kevin-W posted:

In other developments this morning, it turns out that the petition was started some weeks ago by a right-wing Brexiter named William Oliver Healey, who was worried that his side were not going to win. The crybaby elements within the Remain camp then jumped on it after Thursday's result. Oh the irony!

In any case, fraud or not, the possibility of this petition being enacted are close to zero, because it asks for retrospective legislation.

It doesn't really call for retrospective legislation; as has been repeatedly stated the referendum has no legally binding status so the government could hold a second referendum on the basis that they feel the result was unclear... Perhaps this time setting it as legally binding.

Kevin-W posted:

Mike, what's interesting is that the most bellicose statements - Schulz, Juncker etc - have been coming from the EUrocracy. Individual nations have been more conciliatory - Merkel, for example, this morning. It is in everyone's best interest that our exit (providing it happens of course) is conducted calmly and amicable. We are not, after all, leaving Europe, just the EU.

One (albeit a one word summary) comment on what Merkel has said was that she wanted a quick presentation of a business like timetable.  That sounds reasonable to me.

If the election of a new conservative leader takes till October, there is a possibility that would lead to a GE which wouldn't take place for (say) 3-6 months so any real movement towards a formal exit would not happen till March time, and that's if the political will didn't change as a result of the GE.  

Clay Bingham posted:

 The inflamed passions of the crowd don't always result in good/rational  decision making.

I prefer to sentiments of one of the 20^th century’s great philosophers Ronnie James Dio.

Dave***t posted:

It's probably against forum rules to provide a link, but have a look at the daily mash

Oops, edit: The Canary, not the Daily Mash. But the latter is worth a look too, as an oasis of sense in a mad world.

I know Dave, it (Mash) has been a breath of fresh air these past few days. This one in particular made me laugh out loud:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/...party-20160625109822

But I will take a look at the Canary - thanks for the heads up...

The one thing I notice is absent from this debate is the fact (and this part is a fact, irrespective of opinions and politics) that the EU is in VERY bad financial condition, and in danger of collapsing on itself whether the UK stays or goes. European banks (like their US counterparts) are woefully under-capitalized; the whole project and the Euro as a currency are in a dismal state.

Since I am trying to get there, I pay particular attention to Italy. At a 135% debt-to-GDP ratio, Italy is not in good fiscal shape. It’s economy is still smaller than it was in 2007, its banking system has more than $200 billion of bad debt, its public sector consumes more than 50% of GDP and its politically fractured government is paralyzed. And economically, it is far from alone in the bloc.

Personally, as an EU passport holder, I like the idea of a pan-Euro trade and visa-free region. And the basic concept of keeping the nations of Europe from going to war against one another is the most positive feature of the EU. But as I have mentioned before, it appears to have had a terrible level of mission creep, and has become a bureaucracy that just feeds itself...and worse, a bureaucracy that cannot be voted out. I think it should have been a trading bloc and negotiated very broad trade agreements, instead of trying to run the minutia of every detail of European life. And NO ONE with that kind of power should be unaccountable to the citizenry.

A pretty good quote I read this week: "All growth beyond what is necessary is either obesity or cancer." Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the European Union.

I also think the EU is a means by which the USA extends its control or influence over Europe - trying to herd one cow is easier than trying to herd 28. (Hence Mr Obama's pre-referendum "scolding" of the British people.) And we are busy building an empire here, you know...terribly unsporting of you to possibly throw a wrench in that plan.

I personally think you have just gotten in a life boat from the Titanic, economically speaking. And the lower the Titanic sinks, the more glad you will be...except for one simple fact. Politicians, being what they are, have an incredibly bad track record, and without knowing too many details about British ones, I feel pretty confident they can steer the lifeboat into another iceberg too.

And that is NOT an American feeling smug about anything - we are about to have an election here between 2 people (or perhaps better, 2 sub-humans) neither of whom should never be allowed anywhere near the Oval Office. And Europeans are going to pay much of the price for that too, because that's how we roll over here.

I think the best thing would have been EU reform, but getting a bunch of fat-cat leaches to give up their cushy positions would not be easy. It would just be horrible to see the likes of Tusk, Draghi, and Juncker have to actually get a bloody real job. And they don't want reform, because they are part o the cabal that is trying to run everything.

Eloise posted:

A month or so ago Farage didn't think a 52% majority was enough...

[Last month, Nigel Fararge] told the Mirror: ‘In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/...63900/#ixzz4CcPe7ySO

I'm sorry, but what makes you think I am in the slightest bit interested what that liar and fraud Nigel Farage has to say about anything? He was completely wrong about re-running the referendum; as he is about pretty much everything.

As someone who voted in a particular way in the referendum, I was - and am, should things change - willing to respect the will of my fellow citizens, whether I agree with the decision or not. 

Frank F posted:

Hi Boris 786 - it all sounds a bit like Gary Glitter - Do You Wanna be in My Gang, My Gang, My Gang.  

Who put the bang in gang I wonder, Junkers 88?

FF

Eloise posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Eloise posted:

Sorry sometimes my posts and replies verge from serious to more flippant and this is one of those...

The problem is, Borris is trying to work out how to get out of making good on his campaigning and actually stay in the EU.  

<--- an exploding Emulsified High-Fat Offal Tube ... a.k.a. the British Sausage!

And yet again, the meaning of the exploding sausage completely escapes me.

Damn you Winky ... its not a sausage ... its an Emulsified High-Fat Offal Tube*   :-)

No idea what it's meant to mean though!

*sorry I guess the reference to a 1980s political sit-com passes you by being Canadian.  If you can track down Yes, Minister's final episode "Party Games" (which lead into Yes, Prime Minister) all will become clear.

Passed me by as well and I am English.........

Kevin-W posted:

MDS posted:

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

In fairness to the rest of the EU, those governments will be concerned that protracting the exit will also protract the uncertainty that will hurt their economies so I can understand their call to get on with it.  And it does seem a bit cheeky for us (the UK) to puff up our demands of EU reform before holding the referendum and then say we will work at the pace of the Conservative party annual conference before formally executing the result.  

There must also be a lot of emotion in this, even at the the top of governments.  The result of this referendum is akin to one partner in a marriage saying they are suing for a divorce.  The other party can be forgiven for feeling rejected and acting accordingly.  

Oh, and I should add I'm also stunned and deeply disappointed at the result.  This is going to be one very messy divorce with many unintended consequences. 

Mike

Mike, what's interesting is that the most bellicose statements - Schulz, Juncker etc - have been coming from the EUrocracy. Individual nations have been more conciliatory - Merkel, for example, this morning. It is in everyone's best interest that our exit (providing it happens of course) is conducted calmly and amicable. We are not, after all, leaving Europe, just the EU.

Kevin - I suspect the major players will speak and behave in a more moderate and constructive manner once the initial shock of the result and feeling of rejection has worn off.  That said, the practicalities and potential knock-on effects are huge.  There is little by way or precedent here.  I think the only MS to leave the EU was Greenland back in the early eighties and I read somewhere that took three years of difficult and sour negotiations to achieve.  The UK is the fifth largest economy in the world so I think it reasonable to posit that the negotiations to achieve our exit will be more complicated and difficult than Greenland's.  I suspect that when the issues and scale of all this becomes apparent there will be many who voted exit who come to regret it.   

Mike

Innocent Bystander posted:

As I Have already suggested, UK Gov is not legally bound to leave, but of course having had a referendum to find and now know the will of the people, as expressed by those who could be bothered to vote, and accepting that there may be many reasons why choices were ill-informed (which can count in either direction), it needs to show that it recognises the will of the people. But it takes the politicians in power to see that one way forward may be to go to Brussells (and lobby all other member countries), to try to find a deal that would make staying appropriate for Britain, and maybe food for Europe. Unfortunately the powers that be are, as all too often the case, more bound up with furthering their own careers than showing any interest in getting the best for Britain.

 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I was talking to a 16 year old at the gym earlier. His view, like that of my 18 and 21 year old sons, is that the old and the stupid have ****ed things up for the young, who are our future. In my view, he's not wrong. 

To dismiss the views of the older section of the public like that  (and iiuc the assessments suggest it was more that the proportion gradually slewd with age, not just a sudden swing past a certain age) is simply not understanding and not recognising the fact that views inevitably change with experience as well as life expectation - and a high proportion of the older sectors will have children, in whom they have a vested interest in a stable and productive future. (Not picking on you HH, as others have said, but yours the most recent)

as for things like 'ballot control', that is si,ply an insult to democracy - the answer is proper information to everyone before the vote, and keeoing emotive things out of it - sadly distinctlylacking in the run-up to the referendum

My two 18-24 year olds and it seems most of their peers have same view. I would not count on my son giving up his seat on the bus any more! Actually thinking about it a seat he will have paid for unlike most of the  passengers on  the bus.

On low voting rates do you think the election before last might have had an effect   - young people piling into voting for Lib Dems on single issue basis Student Fees and the grown ups delivered there didn't they?

No vote without paying the price. If and when the next round of cuts arrive maybe pensions could be looked at...............

No country for young people.

OscillateWildly posted:

Hashtag weepfortheworldandourdataplans

Those who don't agree are thick old child eating racists, and worse. Hashtag comfortblanket

It isn't fair we don't have more than them, it just isn't. We cannot let the bastards get away with not counting the votes of those who didn't vote. Hashtag stealingourvotes,  Hashtag petition

Why aren't we doing what the lovely even-handed leaders of the Project want? Hashtag ukhurryupalready

Hashtag growup, Hashtag night,

OW

Very amusing OW. I can't imagine that many on this forum are young enough to be members of Generation Snowflake but there are certainly some who are behaving as if they were.

I am young enough. I have taken over my reactionary Dad's account to find he is actually  liberal.  I await your further views on me with interest.

Incidentally I work in manufacturing and have just heard that a company that was looking to expand into Europe has now put it's plans on (50 jobs in England/ 200 in Germany and France) due to uncertainty. I will let my zero hours contract brother know the first solid benefit this has brought to us. 

I do think you are either stupid or just selfish take ur pick.

The Snowflake

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

Oh Dad said to say I will buy it a Linn when I have saved enough money to buy a decent music system. Might take me a while given my current rent/crusty landlord.

My pleasure.

Anna 

Tony2011 posted:

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

What is an album? Bye got to go to work to bring about ur bright future/ pay for your pensions.

Ta ta

Tony2011 posted:

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

No apology necessary - in fact I thought it was intentional, and aposite... Maybe some Edgar Broughton would be even better...

And maybe it's time this thread was closed, lest more of the unsavoury comments made a while back start to surface again.  There is no right or wrong to this debate, most of the anticipated or alleged  effects one way or another are just conjecture, some more solidly founded than others. There was no ageism or racism in the decision, even if some people said things one way or another, or believe that to be the case. A fresh thread discussing how to get the best for UK and EU out of the present débacle might be better, but keeping a suitable level of respect and decorum.

As this is the padded cell, maybe its time for ECT, lobotomy, straight jackets, or whatever else takes anyone's fancy. (And this is aimed at absolutely nobody, or everyone, depending on your point of view.)

Boris786 posted:

Tony2011 posted:

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

What is an album? Bye got to go to work to bring about ur bright future/ pay for your pensions.

Ta ta

Oi, behave! I'm old enough to... Oops, did I say that too loud?

naim_nymph posted:

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Perhaps, Cameron should have done this due to only 36% of eligible voters backing Brexit.

Cameron, instead of resigning, could stay put to defend the rights of the majority who have not voted for it.

Interesting. So you know exactly how the c. 38% who didn't vote, would have voted, had they voted? 

Either you're a mindreader or you're talking crap. 52% of those who voted, voted to leave. The other 48% voted to stay. Those who didn't, or couldn't be bothered, to vote are irrelevant.

Spoken like a typical Farage bitgot, and very dumb too. You want a minority of the silly third [who hate Johiny Foreigner] to hijack the other two thirds into fools paradise. that isn't democracy that stupidity. You made a big mistake with your vote, Kevin. Why don't you man up admit it and apologise - like so many other idiots who voted Leave have already.

Debs

That post is judgemental, disrespectful, rude and offensive. Are you sure you didn't vote leave because you appear to have all the necessary qualities.