Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

BORIS786 posted:

My two 18-24 year olds and it seems most of their peers have same view. I would not count on my son giving up his seat on the bus any more! Actually thinking about it a seat he will have paid for unlike most of the  passengers on  the bus.

Boris? (surely not, you aren't, are you?)

Anyway, I can understand how your 18-24 year olds feel, but please bear this in mind.

I for one don't believe the stats that fewer than 25% (or whatever) of the under 25's voted, or that 65% (or whatever) of the over 65s voted to leave. I just can't believe these statistics any more than I believed the accuracy of the opinion polls leading up to the referendum. I did believe the accuracy of the bookies' odds, though, (more fool me) and am now completely disillusioned with them.

Tell your sons that this (not yet, but quite soon to be) pensioner voted to remain, and will continue to campaign for our future in Europe. And this referendum result has aged me quite considerably, so if they spot me on a local bus, please ask them to consider giving up a seat for me.  

Been a pensioner for many years and I voted Remain, I thought that the vote should have been restricted to youngsters.  Now have a squabble as how to define a youngster.

Boris786 posted:

Tony2011 posted:

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

What is an album? Bye got to go to work to bring about ur bright future/ pay for your pensions.

Ta ta

Thank you Boris786/Boris786's son or daughter or whoever you are, for your three contributions to this thread.

I have not the foggiest idea what you are on about, but it's good that people are getting involved and honing their debating skills.

Must get on though - gotta earn a crust so I can pay my taxes and NI so that everyone (young, old, middle-aged, gay, straight, male. female, white, black, Asian, etc etc) gets the chance to have an education, healthcare, state pension, police force, fire service etc etc.

That's the thing about a well-rounded society - everyone works for everyone's benefit: not just a narrow group - bankers and billionaires, for example, or tweenies with an inflated and belligerent sense of entitlement.

If only it was just the tweenies, Kev.

C.

dayjay posted:

That post is judgemental, disrespectful, rude and offensive. 

A perfect description of the original recipient.  He loves dishing it out so I'm sure he can take it.

What goes round comes round.

Speaking of which, it seems the LDs have found an unclutched straw.. Hilarious. They turned out to be so trustworthy last time.

Tony2011 posted:

We should have some kind of have "ballot control"  only issuing them to people who were proven to be mentally capable of making rational decisions and protect them from harming themselves, which has proven to be the case with people regretting their decision. Too late once you pull the trigger!

Oh well, so much for the 400 years of struggle to get universal suffrage.

Ray

naim_nymph posted:

Spoken like a typical Farage bitgot, and very dumb too. You want a minority of the silly third [who hate Johiny Foreigner] to hijack the other two thirds into fools paradise. that isn't democracy that stupidity. You made a big mistake with your vote, Kevin. Why don't you man up admit it and apologise - like so many other idiots who voted Leave have already.

Debs

You're a real charmer, aren't you Debs? Perhaps you could come round to our house one day and give us all the benefit of your oh-so-enlightened thinking. Bitgots [sic] like me could learn so much from beacons of reasoned tolerance such as yourself.

I can't do very much about your apparent lack of knowledge about how democracy works, or indeed elections, but I can tell you about a thing called a bigot. According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, a bigot is: "A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions".  Qui sine peccato est, primam lapidem mittat,if you'll pardon my (very) schoolboy Latin.

As to what I'm supposed to be apologising for, or to whom, and why, I haven't the faintest idea. Since armageddon has not come yet (I hope that it never does, and that everything will be fine, which is more than I can say for some emittered Remaniacs) I think I'll hang fire for a bit if you don't mind.

Ray (and two others) I fear you missed Tone's tone.

C.

Kevin-W posted:

MDS posted:

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

In fairness to the rest of the EU, those governments will be concerned that protracting the exit will also protract the uncertainty that will hurt their economies so I can understand their call to get on with it.  And it does seem a bit cheeky for us (the UK) to puff up our demands of EU reform before holding the referendum and then say we will work at the pace of the Conservative party annual conference before formally executing the result.  

There must also be a lot of emotion in this, even at the the top of governments.  The result of this referendum is akin to one partner in a marriage saying they are suing for a divorce.  The other party can be forgiven for feeling rejected and acting accordingly.  

Oh, and I should add I'm also stunned and deeply disappointed at the result.  This is going to be one very messy divorce with many unintended consequences. 

Mike

Mike, what's interesting is that the most bellicose statements - Schulz, Juncker etc - have been coming from the EUrocracy. Individual nations have been more conciliatory - Merkel, for example, this morning. It is in everyone's best interest that our exit (providing it happens of course) is conducted calmly and amicable. We are not, after all, leaving Europe, just the EU.

Actually while living in the UK (many years ago)  I was always reminded the you were never in Europe. The nearest that you came by was to say:  "the continent". This then does not make you European. You said it!!

Harry posted:

dayjay posted:

That post is judgemental, disrespectful, rude and offensive. 

A perfect description of the original recipient.  He loves dishing it out so I'm sure he can take it.

What goes round comes round.

Well that's me told I suppose. [Slinks off guiltily]

I haven't read anything positive resulting from Brexit. Bad stuff is already happening, not just speculatively but actually.  The politicians advocating leave have been unusually subdued. Even the Brexit propaganda machines are now telling their readers how bad it's going to be for jobs and the economy and dealing with the consequences. 

So for those on here that voted leave just remind us about all the benefits we can expect, together with some evidence rather than wishful thinking. 

If nothing else a total shake up of British politics, and a realisation that the two main parties don't represent the views of millions of the electorate is a stunning result for democracy. Politics in this country was stale, unrepresentative and arrogant and moving further and further away from true democracy. I live in hope that there will be a new type of politics, and one that doesn't involve UKIP taking advantage of those people who felt ignored, and one that returns accountability to the politicians who make our laws and govern our affairs.  On the downside, the endless attacks on the democratic process and bile and vitriol we have seen, from both sides, since the vote has been depressing in the extreme.  It is early days, things will settle down and we will see where we are going, I hope we can all do that with dignity and respect because, at the end of the day, we all have to live on the same island together.

Those are laudable and optimistic sentiments, David, and I would like it to come true.  My worry is that this exit is a hugely complicated tasks which will involve immense effort by government, parliament and others; there will be many unexpected twists and turns; and the process will last for years. And if that weren't challenge enough for a stable government with a good majority, we're going to have to cope with the two main parties in turmoil and without clear leadership.  I must confess to finding the prospect rather depressing.

Mike  

dayjay posted:

If nothing else a total shake up of British politics, and a realisation that the two main parties don't represent the views of millions of the electorate is a stunning result for democracy. Politics in this country was stale, unrepresentative and arrogant and moving further and further away from true democracy. I live in hope that there will be a new type of politics, and one that doesn't involve UKIP taking advantage of those people who felt ignored, and one that returns accountability to the politicians who make our laws and govern our affairs.  On the downside, the endless attacks on the democratic process and bile and vitriol we have seen, from both sides, since the vote has been depressing in the extreme.  It is early days, things will settle down and we will see where we are going, I hope we can all do that with dignity and respect because, at the end of the day, we all have to live on the same island together.

Unfortunately the likely consequence of "a total shake up of British Politics" is the replacement of Cameron and Osborne with Johnson and Gove, and you thought things couldn't get any worse?

I understand Mike, anyone not scared by current events is as stupid as some of us have been accused of being.  Sometimes though you need a burning bridge to bring about change and often people show their true abilities when faced with a challenge. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some co-operation within the political parties, or if a true leader, or two, could step forward and propose a way forward.  Personally I think there is a gap at the moment for a party that occupies the central ground and that allows a more eurosceptic option without the two main parties continually in fighting on the same subject to all of our detriments.  I am optimistic by nature and I genuinely believe that we will find a way, we always do. 

Well Jonn, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I did not state any explicit benefits in the short term. This is akin to a revolution, and the outcomes of revolutions are notoriously difficult to assess . Think of Zhou Enlai's famous 1972 quote when asked about the importance French Revolution (1789): "It is too early to tell."*

Add in the fact that we - and Europe - are now sailing in completely uncharted territory and it's difficult to predict anything either way.

Personally I hope for a new, re-energised democratic process, an end to neoliberal economic dogma, a fair share of the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens and a Europe that's a free trade zone between friendly like-minded Western democracies, rather than an overweening bureaucracy with centralising tendencies.

I fear tomorrow will be a turbulent day in the markets (which bet the house on a Remain vote) though, because there is so much uncertainty about.

But there are a number of upsides already: Cameron is finished; Osborne is in all likelihood finished; Creepy Gove will retreat into the shadows; Farage will soon be unemployed; and if Boris becomes PM and fails to trigger Article 50, he's finished; if he triggers Article 50 and fails to deliver on his various lies (£350m per week extra for the NHS etc), he's finished; and if he fails to deliver on his false promises to slash immigration, he's finished. He has signed his own political death warrant.

*Caveat - it may be that Zhou's translator misheard his interrogator, Richard M Nixon. He thought he was asking about the 1968 Paris insuurections. But you get the point.

dayjay posted:

I understand Mike, anyone not scared by current events is as stupid as some of us have been accused of being.  Sometimes though you need a burning bridge to bring about change and often people show their true abilities when faced with a challenge. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some co-operation within the political parties, or if a true leader, or two, could step forward and propose a way forward.  Personally I think there is a gap at the moment for a party that occupies the central ground and that allows a more eurosceptic option without the two main parties continually in fighting on the same subject to all of our detriments.  I am optimistic by nature and I genuinely believe that we will find a way, we always do. 

It would indeed, David. Perhaps I'm just sceptical about the prospect of any of our current political leaders rising to such a challenge and putting party/personal ambition to one side.  

Mike

Kevin-W posted:

But there are a number of upsides already: Cameron is finished; Osborne is in all likelihood finished; Creepy Gove will retreat into the shadows; Farage will soon be unemployed; and if Boris becomes PM and fails to trigger Article 50, he's finished; if he triggers Article 50 and fails to deliver on his various lies (£350m per week extra for the NHS etc), he's finished; and if he fails to deliver on his false promises to slash immigration, he's finished. He has signed his own political death warrant.

 

Blimey, Kevin. If you're right who the hell is going to run the Government? That incorrigible liberal Ms May, perhaps?

I rather prefered the original Theresa May myself to be honest 

dayjay posted:

I rather prefered the original Theresa May myself to be honest 

Well Borris is still spouting his pie in the sky promises... Absolutes and assurances over things he has no control.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...-of-europe--and-alw/

Kevin-W posted:

Boris786 posted:

Tony2011 posted:

Apologies to everyone for misposting an album cover here. Carry on..

What is an album? Bye got to go to work to bring about ur bright future/ pay for your pensions.

Ta ta

Thank you Boris786/Boris786's son or daughter or whoever you are, for your three contributions to this thread.

I have not the foggiest idea what you are on about, but it's good that people are getting involved and honing their debating skills.

Must get on though - gotta earn a crust so I can pay my taxes and NI so that everyone (young, old, middle-aged, gay, straight, male. female, white, black, Asian, etc etc) gets the chance to have an education, healthcare, state pension, police force, fire service etc etc.

That's the thing about a well-rounded society - everyone works for everyone's benefit: not just a narrow group - bankers and billionaires, for example, or tweenies with an inflated and belligerent sense of entitlement.

Last post honest. Sorry you don't understand. From my point of view I just cannot see any net benefit to leaving and have already seen a loss of opportunity stemming from the same.  My feeling is that the younger generations are being disadvantaged but I assume you do not think so or perhaps simply do not think them deserving hence the twinkies comment.

Lastly I do not think you and I are ever likely to understand each other and on that happy note I depart. We can agree to disagree.

KEVIN-W posted:

Well Jonn, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I did not state any explicit benefits in the short term. This is akin to a revolution, and the outcomes of revolutions are notoriously difficult to assess . Think of Zhou Enlai's famous 1972 quote when asked about the importance French Revolution (1789): "It is too early to tell."*

Well, so now we know.

A vote for BREXIT was nothing to do with the EU, and our exit from the EU was just fortuitous collateral damage. This was nothing less than a vote for a revolution in British Politics.

If only we had all known!  

"Anarchy in the UK"! Are you by any chance a Sex Pistols fan?

MDS posted

Blimey, Kevin. If you're right who the hell is going to run the Government? That incorrigible liberal Ms May, perhaps?

Mike, I think the Conservative leadership conference will be between May and Johnson, but both are going to have a very diificult job.

I know Boris a little bit because I worked (part time) on one of his charity projects when he was at City Hall. He is very clever (if rather shifty), with a much better grasp of detail than most people would think. And ruthlessly ambitious.

But he has two flaws - one, he is rather lazy; and two, he cannot bear people not liking him. He was very upset when Eddie Mair tore him to shreds on the BBC a couple of years ago, and apparently he was absolutely mortified when he was jeered, booed and sworn at by Londoners on Friday morning. That's why he plays the buffoon - an insecure chubby kid who plays for laughs in order to get people to like him. Thus far he has had a very easy ride, and has been let off by his chums in the media - but he will find it much more difficult if he becomes PM.

I wonder if he has the stomach for it. I would suspect that May, a ruthless and incredibly astute operator, probably has.

I wish Labour was more together - they've been handed the country on a plate and are in too much disarray to take advantage.

Hmack posted:

"Anarchy in the UK"! Are you by any chance a Sex Pistols fan?

 

I like them yes, but much prefer PiL's first two albums.