Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Boris,  a buffoon Billy Bunter image is not PM & world leader image material & as our local MP a few years ago I tend to agree Kevin's critique. 

I should be a May fan as she was our local vicar's daughter & went to the local school. She might be  ruthless and incredibly astute,  but I don't see leadership material. 

Grove queered his pitch with Education  

I fear we have an empty barrel to scrape around & the only apple might be a chubby blond flop mop.

Like DayJay above, I also think we will muddle through.  We always do.

As a man of a certain age, I remember only too well the unrest of the 1970s, culminating in the three-day week.  It took a while to play out, but in 1979 a new consensus emerged which has dominated our politics ever since: neo-liberal conservatism.

That said, that new consensus lead to policies that have done our society immense damage.  Our exit from the EU will be chaotic as our established political parties fall apart in mutual acrimony.  I suspect though that we are on the verge of a new settlement that, hopefully, will be more socially just and compassionate..

I have just been watching the Bloomberg TV channel with Christine Lagarde answering questions at a conference in Aspen (USA). She outlined the Brexit situation rationally and factually and expressed regret that the UK did not believe all the expert opinions before the vote, which are niw becoming reality. She believes the decision will have negative consequences for both UK and Europe, but the extent of harm can be limited if there is a constructive and cooperative negotiation.

That still would not address the feeling of loss of those (mainly younger) people who have grown up with and embraced the European concept regarding freedom to work and travel and other integration benefits. I feel for them. At least I can look my own children in the eye and say I did my best for you.

Kevin-W posted:

 ...

Personally I hope for a new, re-energised democratic process, an end to neoliberal economic dogma, a fair share of the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens...

You've always struck me as an intelligent chap Kevin, barring your views on Islam being an evil religion, but I am baffled by your choice and position taken on this fundamental question. Your hopes sound like wishful thinking at best. If I wanted to be less polite and more direct, I'd have to say it is a very naive outlook on things to come. At best the democratic process in the UK will be invigorated for a short while, although I fail to see the UK leaders in waiting you put such faith in. More importantly, though, the chance of Britain bringing about an end to the neoliberal economic dogma all on its own is pointing towards zero. Not with the City of London being what it is, exerting the influence it has on the UK economy and your politicians in particular. If anything, Britain has been the feistiest proponent of that dogma on the European stage. Same goes for the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens. That sentence in itself is an oxymoron. In any case, if these three points were so important to you, you should have voted to stay within Europe, pushed for solidarity amongst like minded people and parties across Europe to bring about change and achieve those goals. As it stands, if it came to the UK leaving Europe, the people you care so much about will find themselves on the loosing side, yet again. 

totemphile posted:

Kevin-W posted:

 ...

Personally I hope for a new, re-energised democratic process, an end to neoliberal economic dogma, a fair share of the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens...

You've always struck me as an intelligent chap Kevin, barring your views on Islam being an evil religion, but I am baffled by your choice and position taken on this fundamental question. Your hopes sound like wishful thinking at best. If I wanted to be less polite and more direct, I'd have to say it is a very naive outlook on things to come. At best the democratic process in the UK will be invigorated for a short while, although I fail to see the UK leaders in waiting you put such faith in. More importantly, though, the chance of Britain bringing about an end to the neoliberal economic dogma all on its own is pointing towards zero. Not with the City of London being what it is, exerting the influence it has on the UK economy and your politicians in particular. If anything, Britain has been the feistiest proponent of that dogma on the European stage. Same goes for the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens. That sentence in itself is an oxymoron. In any case, if these three points were so important to you, you should have voted to stay within Europe, pushed for solidarity amongst like minded people and parties across Europe to bring about change and achieve those goals. As it stands, if it came to the UK leaving Europe, the people you care so much about will find themselves on the loosing side, yet again. 

I suppose (reading both Kevin and totemphile's posts here) that if the result of Brexit will be the collapse of The City as all the banks move to EU nations then that influence will be removed from the UK's politicians!

Mike-B posted:

Boris,  a buffoon Billy Bunter image is not PM & world leader image material & as our local MP a few years ago I tend to agree Kevin's critique. 

I should be a May fan as she was our local vicar's daughter & went to the local school. She might be  ruthless and incredibly astute,  but I don't see leadership material. 

Grove queered his pitch with Education  

I fear we have an empty barrel to scrape around & the only apple might be a chubby blond flop mop.

Regardless of who takes over in charge; I do feel that any change in Prime Minister should be cause for an immediate (say within 3 months) General Election. Brexiteers like Gove and Johnson should welcome it as it will enhance the democratic process the feel is so lacking in the EU. At the very least there should be a confirmation "vote of confidence" in the two Houses of Parliament. 

Eloise posted:

totemphile posted:

Kevin-W posted:

 ...

Personally I hope for a new, re-energised democratic process, an end to neoliberal economic dogma, a fair share of the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens...

You've always struck me as an intelligent chap Kevin, barring your views on Islam being an evil religion, but I am baffled by your choice and position taken on this fundamental question. Your hopes sound like wishful thinking at best. If I wanted to be less polite and more direct, I'd have to say it is a very naive outlook on things to come. At best the democratic process in the UK will be invigorated for a short while, although I fail to see the UK leaders in waiting you put such faith in. More importantly, though, the chance of Britain bringing about an end to the neoliberal economic dogma all on its own is pointing towards zero. Not with the City of London being what it is, exerting the influence it has on the UK economy and your politicians in particular. If anything, Britain has been the feistiest proponent of that dogma on the European stage. Same goes for the benefits of globalisation for all UK citizens. That sentence in itself is an oxymoron. In any case, if these three points were so important to you, you should have voted to stay within Europe, pushed for solidarity amongst like minded people and parties across Europe to bring about change and achieve those goals. As it stands, if it came to the UK leaving Europe, the people you care so much about will find themselves on the loosing side, yet again. 

I suppose (reading both Kevin and totemphile's posts here) that if the result of Brexit will be the collapse of The City as all the banks move to EU nations then that influence will be removed from the UK's politicians!

It won't happen. Operations selling to the EU may get moved but the more aggressive and expansive parts of their business will stay in London. Without any EU regulation it will be a bankers paradise. UK politicians will do diddly squat about it. 

As a non-Labour voter (somewhere between one nation Tory/free market-social liberal) I respected Jeremy Corbyn - true to socialist beliefs, Clause 4 etc none of the new Labour facade  - but from I have read about how he might have scuppered the Remain campaign and someone on R4 on Saturday even suggested that he might well have voted Leave in the privacy of the polling stn but couldn't declare publicly to be on the same side as  Boris/Gove/Farage -  I'm afraid that he might well be a duplicitous maneuverer of the very worst.

Corbyn is being skittled by the people who never supported him anyway; Labour MPs. They have waited for their moment from the day he started.

The question for him now is clear. Stand again, and probably be re-elected by the membership/unions as before but leave a Labour Party riven with division (and that will perhaps split?) or step aside from any re-election and try to let the party find a unifying candidate. Good luck with that folks (see the Tory party for further information).

We actually have the least unified Parliament I can imagine. The Brexit vote also suggest a major disconnect between the major parties and the population Can any of this be good?

Bruce

Bruce - it's terrible.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Bruce - it's terrible.

Indeed it is.  A country as big as the UK and in these turbulent times needs good leadership. It's hard to see where that's going to come from at the moment, in any political party.

Crabb and Jarvis?

C.

ursus262 posted:

Like DayJay above, I also think we will muddle through.  We always do.

As a man of a certain age, I remember only too well the unrest of the 1970s, culminating in the three-day week.  It took a while to play out, but in 1979 a new consensus emerged which has dominated our politics ever since: neo-liberal conservatism.

That said, that new consensus lead to policies that have done our society immense damage.  Our exit from the EU will be chaotic as our established political parties fall apart in mutual acrimony.  I suspect though that we are on the verge of a new settlement that, hopefully, will be more socially just and compassionate..

Unfortunately, the outcome of this vote will be a completely ineffective and broken Labour Party leading to a one party political state (in England anyway), and perpetual rule by a Tory party that will for the time being have tilted significantly to the right.

I really do not see how the "more socially just and compassionate new settlement" can come about. 

Possibly Nigel Farage will form a new Political party on the right of the Tory party, to replace UKIP and re-introduce a two party state. Then the Tory party will be classed as the centre of British politics fighting for the rights of the less well off and disadvantaged.

Do I really hope that this will happen? Of course not! Not even if Scotland has decided to go it's own way. I for one, as a Scot, still feel British as well, although my Britishness has been diminished more than slightly by this whole referendum process and its outcome. 

eazyryder posted:

Eazyryder,

I appreciate and concur with the sentiment. You just got the flag wrong!

or

if Northern Ireland also goes its own way.

DAYJAY posted:

On the downside, the endless attacks on the democratic process and bile and vitriol we have seen, from both sides, since the vote has been depressing in the extreme.  It is early days, things will settle down and we will see where we are going, I hope we can all do that with dignity and respect because, at the end of the day, we all have to live on the same island together.

DAYJAY, that is a rather blinkered and very high-handed moral stance to take. You obviously believe that you have the moral high ground in this argument , but I beg to differ.

What you must accept is that as a supporter of BREXIT, in the event that the referendum had gone the other way, you and the other supporters of BREXIT would simply have re-grouped and gathered your strength for another opportunity a little further down the line. You may possibly argue that you would have accepted (indefinitely) a vote of 5%/48% the other way, but one thing is for sure. The majority of BREXIT supporters would not.

Those of us on the other side of the argument do not have this luxury. We know very well that the single act of posting Article 50 will result in an irreversible exit from the EU, and that we need to pursue any legitimate option to attempt to ensure that this does not happen.

My personal high moral ground is based on the fact I genuinely believe that the majority of the people in this country do not want to leave the EU, and would have voted differently if they had been made truly aware of the consequences, and will do so if they are offered another referendum.

You cannot deny that most of our children and children's children do not aspire to a BREXIT. At the very least, we owe it to them to look at all our options before the final step is taken. Do we condemn them to a bleak and isolated future just because our politicians were not capable of fighting an effective campaign, or because the right wing British press and their vested interests pushed the entire agenda and argument in a particular direction?    

 By the way, I do share your sentiment that the British political system is stale and unrepresentative of the people. However, this is not the way to change it, Change the British political, it will. But certainly not in the way I (or you, by the tone of your posts) would like. It will certainly not result in a system that will support the needs of the under privileged in our country.  

Hmack posted:

DAYJAY posted:

On the downside, the endless attacks on the democratic process and bile and vitriol we have seen, from both sides, since the vote has been depressing in the extreme.  It is early days, things will settle down and we will see where we are going, I hope we can all do that with dignity and respect because, at the end of the day, we all have to live on the same island together.

 

My personal high moral ground is based on the fact I genuinely believe that the majority of the people in this country do not want to leave the EU, and would have voted differently if they had been made truly aware of the consequences, and will do so if they are offered another referendum.

You cannot deny that most of our children and children's children do not aspire to a BREXIT. At the very least, we owe it to them to look at all our options before the final step is taken. Do we condemn them to a bleak and isolated future just because our politicians were not capable of fighting an effective campaign, or because the right wing British press and their vested interests pushed the entire agenda and argument in a particular direction?    

 

Nail - hammer - head.   

a joke to lighten things up..

52% of Mumbai decided to Exit Mumbai but were prevented from doing so by a massive traffic jam at the main roundabout.. 

Hmack posted:

or

if Northern Ireland also goes its own way.

If Northern Ireland also goes its own way, why would we keep the diagonal red cross of St Andrew?

It would make more sense a flag made up of the yellow cross on black background (of St David) and the red cross on white background (of St George)... or perhaps a dragon and a rose and forget the saints completely. 

So, we’re not going to invoke Article 50, until we get a beneficial exit agreement. What are going to do is we can’t get one. Threaten not to invoke Article 50.

I watched the cabinet arriving at No.10 this morning, most of them walked, Gove arrived in a black SUV with blackened out windows, dropped him off as close to door as it was possible to get. The only thing missing was a blanket over his head.

Eloise posted:

If Northern Ireland also goes its own way, why would we keep the diagonal red cross of St Andrew?

Agreed! Just laziness on my part I guess, when I was looking for alternative flags.

By the way, I really do hope that this does not come about. I will have a real dilemma if it does come to a vote.

The flags being posted are rather academic - there's no way Wales will stay joined to England if the rest of the United Kingdom becomes disunited. Nothing to do with EU, just they wanted their independence long before Scotland's moves to devolution, though admittedly have been relatively quiet of late. Whether such small countries are viable players on the world stage if standing solely on their own two feet is another matter, ditto how they would fare as small new entrants to the EU. (Pops: Wales ~3M, Scotland ~5M, NI under 2M (though latter might join with Eire - hoping  that doesn't rekindle the violence of the all too recent past).

i used to think of the UK as remarkably stable. now I am worried, and  the exchanges on just this forum do nothing to quell that fear, some of which have revealed diametrically opposed views and at times barely hidden hostility, when this might have been expected to be a more refined group of individuals than the bulk masses.

it is time everyone calmed down, and time for politicians to wake up to the reality of post-referendum life, and start to show leadership before the current meltdown leads to a  breakdown of society, which I believe is a real rusk, while I hope and trust it will not go that far.

There's an emerging view (I mean a properly-argued legal view) that constitutionally the Government itself can't trigger Article 50 and that Parliament has to do that.  No doubt it will be discussed endlessly on this evening's news programmes.  I must say that I doubt that a Bill to enable the triggering of Article 50 would get through Parliament at the moment. I'm not sure where this is all going, but it feels very bad, whichever scenario one thinks about.

best

David

David

To put it indelicately, the pooch would seem to have been well and truly screwed on this one. No outcomes without breaking a lot of dishes in the UK and one can only speculate on the next few months-year in the EU. You wish everyone patience and forebearance but such character traits seem at a premium in the modern world.

So many British voters were (and still are) taken in by the false info spread  by the Brexit leaders, now the genie is out of the bottle.

The people I feel most sorry for are those who are in the position, or will be in the position over the next 2 or 3 years of having to buy annuities when they retire. I feel very fortunate that I am not in that position.

Unfortunately for them, they will be well and truly screwed. It's not just the young who will suffer!