Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

jfritzen posted:

Frank F posted:

Now here is one for the Human Rights Lawyers.  

My Citizenship of the EU is likely to be lost when BREXIT happens because the EU/EC will dictate that.  I voted Remain and will potentially loose health benefits because I am resident abroad for much of the time (the weather suits my bones and clothes), my Human Rights are therefore likely to be reduced.  Surely a clever HR Lawyer could take the EU/EC to the European Court of Human Rights because this affects hundreds of thousands of people, not just from GB but from other states?

Worth a punt and more lucrative that challenging a Romanians angst at having to go to a Greek Jail.

 

FF

Why would you need health care in a EU country when you're going to lose the right of residence anyway?

He isn't going to lose the right of residence anyway. He may lose the automatic right of residence, although it seems most likely that UK citizens already resident in EU countries will be able to stay there as will EU citizens who are already resident in the UK be able to stay here. But even if Brexit came about in some extreme full version, he could still apply to live in another EU country and if he lived there then he would need access to  healthcare. 

Adam Meredith posted:

eazyryder posted:

Life goes on people, our country wont fail us.

Presumably - a third as likely of success as three, reassuringly symbolic, lions might be?

Personally, I would go for a dragon!

Still in Europe, and more importantly (as Harry Hill would testify), a dragon would beat a lion in a fight any day of the week!

Frank F posted:

Hi David, that is correct.  I have residency and have the health rights transferred to Spain but in the longer term, loosing the human right to continue with health care is a big worry.  Any lawyers wanting to take the EU to the ECHR??

FF

Health care is not a human right.

You won't find any lawyer to agree to do this now because nothing has happened yet and the residency/healthcare bit could go in any direction post-negotiation.  But anyway I expect that whatever happens there will be mutual recognition of citizens from EU countries who are already resident and mutual recognition of healthcare rights for them too. A bigger issue for older UK citizens living in Spain is likely to be the loss of inflation linking on their state pensions.

best

David

Bananahead posted:

Frank F posted:

Hi David, that is correct.  I have residency and have the health rights transferred to Spain but in the longer term, loosing the human right to continue with health care is a big worry.  Any lawyers wanting to take the EU to the ECHR??

FF

Health care is not a human right.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with that.

As the NESRI website puts it:

"The design of a health care system must be guided by the following key human rights standards: Universal Access: Access to health care must be universal, guaranteed for all on an equitable basis. Health care must be affordable and comprehensive for everyone, and physically accessible where and when needed."

Eloise posted:

totemphile posted:

Well, I am concerned, for two reasons: First, I live in the EU and I don't think it's good for the EU, if the UK left. Second, I used to live in the UK for nine years and do care for your country. I think the people have been short changed and deserve better. Unfortunately, I fail to see how leaving the EU will improve the lives of most people. But you're right, it's early days and my hope is that somehow this lunacy will end well, i.e. the UK will stay. I am sure you disagree.

I think your statement which I have emboldened sums up my feelings of dispair.  People have been sold a dream with no basis in reality and no plan exists how it might even be achieved.

IMHO very little to none of what was promised by the Leave campaign is likely to be achieved. I would be very surprised, if the UK were to gain access to the EU market without having to pay a lump sum of money, which realistically will be around about the sum it paid minus the sum it got back from the EU. So no change there. The idea that a European country can have access to the EU market without contributing to its growth is ludicrous. After all the whole idea of the strong economies within the EU being net contributors is to develop the weaker economies, so that over time these economies become stronger and, thus, more lucrative markets, increasing trade across and within the EU, benefitting everyone. It's an investment into the future. All of the European countries that have access to the EU market are paying. I don't see why the EU would want to make an exception for the UK. They will not, it's a matter of principle. 

With regards to migration into the UK from EU countries, the free movement of labour is a fundamental element within the EU and for good reason. Again, both Norway and Switzerland have accepted this (in fact EU migration into these two countries as a % of their population has been higher than that into the UK). It is highly unlikely that there will be an exception for the UK. The only change here may be the level of access to social benefits but the UK already negotiated these changes successfully within the EU. 

The vast bulk of the existing trade agreements is unlikely to change in any great detail or better said to the advantage of the UK. The UK will still need to comply to EU rules and regulations for any given trade. It will be in the EU's interest to make any deal the UK negotiates worse than what is currently in place. It has to. There must be disadvantages of leaving the EU as opposed to being a full fledged member. Getting all the benefits of EU membership without any responsibilities just doesn't make sense as it would only encourage other countries to push for more referendums on leaving, something the EU cannot afford to happen. It would be suicidal.

So I fail to see what control the UK will have taken back by leaving the EU? If I am not mistaken, it was free to control the influx of migration from outside the EU by introducing the much talked about Canadian or Australian points system. Why has this not happened until now? It was free to set its own interest rates through the Bank of England. It was free to adjust the level of VAT down to the lowest possible level in the EU, which I believe is 15%. It has not done this. It was free to reduce income taxes and determine public spending up until now. But signs are taxes are going to increase and public spending is going to decrease as a result of exiting the EU. The Leave campaign has already backtracked on the promise of additional funding for the NHS. Foreign investment into the UK is likely to decrease once the UK exits the EU, jobs will be lost. Where on earth are the positives? 

eazyryder posted:

I look forward to the future so I can look back on all these "optimistic" views with a big smile on my face.

I have full confidence in MY countrys decision and have no doubt we shall prevail.

 

It's good to be optimistic but blind optimism can lead you straight into a brick wall. Your optimism seems to be based on an off the cuff feeling, rather than an understanding of the economic and political complexities. The global reaction so far has been catastrophic, some will recover but already it will have had negative consequences on people's lives. On the whole the outlook is rather bleak, unless there is a fundamental change of the current mandate.

totemphile posted:

 Where on earth are the positives? 

 

 

I thinks you've overlooked something here.

We will have the freedom to remove VAT from tampons, build gargantuan vacuum cleaners and sell deformed fruit and veg at will.

Jeremy Hunt was on the radio this morning talking about immigration after we leave the EU. He seems to think we will be able to set a maximum EU total and pick and choose who comes in. (each EU country will be given a quota)

If this is the case, presumably there will be reciprocal agreement with regard to UK citizens migrating to the EU.

It’s ironic that the young educated/employable (the ones who voted remain) will be free to migrate the EU and the young uneducated/not so employable will not be free to do so.

The BBC are reporting that in the 'no-confidence in Corbyn' ballot of Labour MPs the vote went 176 to 44 against him.  It's just about the only issue on which the Opposition can outdo the Government at the moment i.e. which party can have the deepest internal divisions . Sad to see. 

totemphile posted:

eazyryder posted:

I look forward to the future so I can look back on all these "optimistic" views with a big smile on my face.

I have full confidence in MY countrys decision and have no doubt we shall prevail.

 

It's good to be optimistic but blind optimism can lead you straight into a brick wall. Your optimism seems to be based on an off the cuff feeling, rather than an understanding of the economic and political complexities. The global reaction so far has been catastrophic, some will recover but already it will have had negative consequences on people's lives. On the whole the outlook is rather bleak, unless there is a fundamental change of the current mandate.

 

 

totemphile,

That interview with Richard Branson is incredibly powerful.

Why can't I see the Branson video on my original post now, even though I could when first posted? It shows up in Firefox but not Safari 9.1.1 (El Capitan) and 8.0.8 (Yosemite)? Strange. Trying this again....

Ok that seemed to work, the video shows up in the above post here as well as on my other Mac running Safari 8.0.8. However, the video in my initial post is not visible on either system, nor is it visible in any of the replies quoting my original posting of the video. They were visible before in each of the posts but disappeared successively, one after the other!! Is there a bug on the forum with regards to Safari? 

Anyone else having this issue? 

eazyryder posted:

Yet another powerful and honest speech

On the contrary, it's an arrogant diatribe, and all about the man's inflated ego. So we want  good trade deals with the rest of the EU so let's insult them. Fortunately, he's treated as the joke he certainly is by the rest of the MEPs. Disgraceful.

totemphile posted:

Ok that seemed to work, the video shows up in the above post here as well as on my other Mac running Safari 8.0.8. However, the video in my initial post is not visible on either system, nor is it visible in any of the replies quoting my original posting of the video. They were visible before in each of the posts but disappeared successively, one after the other!! Is there a bug on the forum with regards to Safari? 

Anyone else having this issue? 

It appears to happen when someone replies to the post with video, the video is carried forward with the reply.  Happens with embedded videos.  I have it happen on the Listening thread in the music room.  Work around is probably don't embed, just cut and paste the link.

A very rude man.

And very cheeky, did he really say

The main reason the United Kingdom voted the way it did, is you have by stealth, by deception, without ever telling the truth to the British.

Sound familiar.

Jeff Anderson posted:

totemphile posted:

Ok that seemed to work, the video shows up in the above post here as well as on my other Mac running Safari 8.0.8. However, the video in my initial post is not visible on either system, nor is it visible in any of the replies quoting my original posting of the video. They were visible before in each of the posts but disappeared successively, one after the other!! Is there a bug on the forum with regards to Safari? 

Anyone else having this issue? 

It appears to happen when someone replies to the post with video, the video is carried forward with the reply.  Happens with embedded videos.  I have it happen on the Listening thread in the music room.  Work around is probably don't embed, just cut and paste the link.

Ok, thanks, but on my systems it's only an issue using Safari. Same for the other video, which was posted and quoted afterwards - not that I mind much in that instance. More seriously, though, all the videos show up in Firefox, so the bug must be Safari related. Also, I didn't embed, just posted the link using the "Insert/edit video" function from the menu. Or are you referring to this as embedded? Asking cause there is an "Embed" option within that function, which I did not use.

eazyryder posted:

tonym posted:

eazyryder posted:

Yet another powerful and honest speech

On the contrary, it's an arrogant diatribe, and all about the man's inflated ego. So we want  good trade deals with the rest of the EU so let's insult them. Fortunately, he's treated as the joke he certainly is by the rest of the MEPs. Disgraceful.

Its an opinion, everyone is entitled to one and if you listen carefully there where a few applauses, but I guess you are a remain voter. We are a strong country and the EU needs us as much as we need them and the economic world consists of a FEW more trading countries than just the EU ones.

We're a damn sight weaker now we've decided to leave the EU. And if you think we'll get the same favourable trade deals we're currently enjoying under the EU, you're mistaken.

eazyryder posted:

Y

Hmack posted:

totemphile posted:

eazyryder posted:

I look forward to the future so I can look back on all these "optimistic" views with a big smile on my face.

I have full confidence in MY countrys decision and have no doubt we shall prevail.

 

It's good to be optimistic but blind optimism can lead you straight into a brick wall. Your optimism seems to be based on an off the cuff feeling, rather than an understanding of the economic and political complexities. The global reaction so far has been catastrophic, some will recover but already it will have had negative consequences on people's lives. On the whole the outlook is rather bleak, unless there is a fundamental change of the current mandate.

 

 

totemphile,

That interview with Richard Branson is incredibly powerful.

Incredibly powerful yes- and so is MR Branson but unfortunately for all his VAST wealth even he cant overrule British democracy and I am sure whatever happens Richard will get to keep all his mansions

I'm not a Branson fan, but what I took him to be saying was that if many of those who voted for Brexit could foresee the likely economic consequences - he said recession -  they would likely have voted differently and therefore at some future point there should be another referendum to give all voters another opportunity to consider the issue.  I don't think that amounts to overruling British democracy.  Indeed, I think it arguable that once the new PM has negotiated major elements of Brexit with the rest of the EU that could be explained to the electorate together with a vote on whether the government should press ahead and leave on those terms.  To date the political leaders for Brexit have not adequately explained what they propose to do. They have no worked up policies. 

totemphile posted:

Why can't I see the Branson video on my original post now, even though I could when first posted? It shows up in Firefox but not Safari 9.1.1 (El Capitan) and 8.0.8 (Yosemite)? Strange. Trying this again....

 

The that video has gone now too! However, if you reply to the original post, it will come up in the quoted reply, until it disappears there too some twenty minutes or so later. I deleted the video from this post here in order to avoid yet another duplication.

Certainly it could be argued that if a referendum was the correct way to decide if the UK should leave the EU, another referendum is the correct way to decide if the deal the UK negotiates with the EU is acceptable.  Both will affect the country in a deep and fundermental way.

Posting the Branson video link straight into this text now for those not able to see it in their Safari browser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQZyP_Odio

Sorry for the multiple posts. Maybe Richard or one of the other moderators can pass on this Safari bug to Hopeless.

TIA

Eloise posted:

Certainly it could be argued that if a referendum was the correct way to decide if the UK should leave the EU, another referendum is the correct way to decide if the deal the UK negotiates with the EU is acceptable.  Both will affect the country in a deep and fundermental way.

A second vote would simply be an indication if the exit terms where acceptable. If the vote was no, it would be an instruction to renegotiate, it couldn't overturn the result of the original vote.

David Cameron did try to renegotiate our terms earlier in the year and he EU did not cme close to what was asked for possibly if they had offered better terms the Referendum result might have been different.

So as far as I'm concerned the result is OK by me the world is bigger than the EU.

fatcat posted:

Eloise posted:

Certainly it could be argued that if a referendum was the correct way to decide if the UK should leave the EU, another referendum is the correct way to decide if the deal the UK negotiates with the EU is acceptable.  Both will affect the country in a deep and fundermental way.

A second vote would simply be an indication if the exit terms where acceptable. If the vote was no, it would be an instruction to renegotiate, it couldn't overturn the result of the original vote.

You might think that a second vote couldn't overturn the first vote, but it most certainly could, especially if it were worded to have that intention.

A referendum would need a new Act of Parliament (the existing one was put in place by the EU Referendum Act 2015) and the new Act would just need to say that the new vote would have that effect. The referendum we just had was only advisory anyway, but Paliament can always overturn any earlier decision by making a new one in any case.

best

David