Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

I doubted the provenance of the quote, too, and couldn't see any such sentiment coming from him when I had a quick Google. If it is as made up as it seems to be, surely we've had enough of the cynical, manipulative lies? The truth is quite daunting enough as it is.

Have to say I like the tone of the statement actually, he seems to get what's going on.

Said quote seems to have originated from a tweet by a Giovanni Zibordi, whoever he is. (Tweet in Italian <Schultz: "gli inglesi hanno violato le regole. Non è la filosofia UE che la folla possa decidere del suo destino" >

So - Brexit have invited the electorate to vote out because we can be strong and independent.  But EU although we're leaving we still want to be play in your playground!!!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So - Brexit have invited the electorate to vote out because we can be strong and independent.  But EU although we're leaving we still want to be play in your playground!!!

....but although we may want to play your games with you, we will want to make up our own rules and we will decide which players you are allowed to have in your teams.

David Hendon posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So - Brexit have invited the electorate to vote out because we can be strong and independent.  But EU although we're leaving we still want to be play in your playground!!!

....but although we may want to play your games with you, we will want to make up our own rules and we will decide which players you are allowed to have in your teams.

Its like joining a golf club and complaining that there are little white balls everywhere...

FTSE 100 closes above pre brexit levels, perhaps Armageddon has been postponed 

Not yet, 80 % of the UK GDP are from services (primarily the financial services from the city of London), so the impact will be huge.

If Brexit proves, over a reasonable time, to be a disaster for UK then I lay a large proportion of the blame on the Newspapers who help to spread this support on the public and I found their attitude quite shocking.  I really hope all this doom and gloom news is just expected after a few days from the referendum result and all will be good and optimistic.  But the other side of me feel that we are heading into a recession and wonder how many of the people who were so quick to vote for Brexit realised that a full blown depressing recession will follow ..?  Lastly I get the feeling that no one from Parliament wants to take charge (not so surprising), perhaps it is a contest what is the most dangerous job; be the next Prime Minister or the next English manager of our football team?  

dayjay posted:

FTSE 100 closes above pre brexit levels, perhaps Armageddon has been postponed 

FTSE250 still down significantly... And FTSE100 has only reached the closing level for the 23rd (well 2 points down).

And GBP is still around the 10 year low against the dollar.

And pound still down 10% against the Euro. The reason that the plunge has slowed down is that the smart money is on nothing happening quickly.

Romi posted:

If Brexit proves, over a reasonable time, to be a disaster for UK then I lay a large proportion of the blame on the Newspapers who help to spread this support on the public and I found their attitude quite shocking.  I really hope all this doom and gloom news is just expected after a few days from the referendum result and all will be good and optimistic.  But the other side of me feel that we are heading into a recession and wonder how many of the people who were so quick to vote for Brexit realised that a full blown depressing recession will follow ..?  Lastly I get the feeling that no one from Parliament wants to take charge (not so surprising), perhaps it is a contest what is the most dangerous job; be the next Prime Minister or the next English manager of our football team?  

No comparison- one is a deadly serious job, affecting the lives and livelihoods of millions of people, the other is just well paid fun, managing well paid people.

Sadly the leaders UK had have shown they are anything but leaders, and there's clearly no-one with the mettle and of sufficient calibre to fill the chasm. Why, oh why, did the idiots take the country to the brink with no effective 'plan B'? They deserve to be publicly ridiculed, stripped of all their fancy decorations and dressed in sackcloth and ashes, and made to seek real work.

in the meantime, what the country needs is probably a benevolent dictator, but that would certainly be anathema to most, so maybe they just need an emergency coalition to devise the best next steps, and call a general election, with a prime electioninging requirement of a short essay by all candidates on the  theme "what I would do if I were prime minister facing a decision of whether or not to leave the EU"?

Innocent Bystander posted:

No comparison- one is a deadly serious job, affecting the lives and livelihoods of millions of people, the other is just well paid fun, managing well paid people.

ah but which is which :-)

in the meantime, what the country needs is probably a benevolent dictator, but that would certainly be anathema to most, so maybe they just need an emergency coalition to devise the best next steps, and call a general election, with a prime electioninging requirement of a short essay by all candidates on the  theme "what I would do if I were prime minister facing a decision of whether or not to leave the EU"?

I argued (on another forum) that that is what democracy (or representative democracy as practiced the world over) essentially is ... You elect a group of people to rule you for a period of time.  Once elected you have zero say in what happens.  At the end of 4-5 years, you vote again and if they did an okay job you elect them again.

Distasteful? No, spot on, and rather funny to boot. It's not up to you to decide when a topic should be removed. Thankfully.

It would be nice if we could concentrate on ways of re-uniting this country.

I voted to remain.

I consider this episode had revealed the worst in British politicians, European politicians and many individuals. It's natural that feelings have been hurt and extremes of expression vented.

However, whatever the future brings, we have to work together. And that includes this forum.

Having started this topic, I would be deeply concerned if it was up to others to have it removed.

+1, nice bit of satire. It's something of a modern tradition to lampoon the events of the day with that (brilliant, I thought) scene.

eazyryder posted:

I think its time to remove this topic completely, its getting childish and distasteful, with the above as a prime example.

I agree, stop calling for the thread to be closed or removed, you are not the moderator. Plenty of people are interested in this topic. If you don't like what's posted, there's an easy way to avoid it, just stop reading the thread.

tonym posted:

Distasteful? No, spot on, and rather funny to boot. It's not up to you to decide when a topic should be removed. Thankfully.

+1

Downfall still doing the rounds? Quoting vox pops?

Don Atkinson posted:

It would be nice if we could concentrate on ways of re-uniting this country.

I voted to remain.

I consider this episode had revealed the worst in British politicians, European politicians and many individuals. It's natural that feelings have been hurt and extremes of expression vented.

However, whatever the future brings, we have to work together. And that includes this forum.

It would be nice.

However, this referendum was won because of a series of lies and predictably undeliverable promises about immigrants and reallocation of money that is paid to the EU.

A small group of opportunists and a right wing press with vested interests have managed to hoodwink a large number of people into thinking that their concerns would be mitigated by a vote to leave. Not everyone who voted to leave, but enough to swing the vote in their direction.

Five days is not enough time for me to forgive and forget. This decision is going to cause chaos in many parts of the UK, and divisions have been created which will not easily be healed. The more unpleasant and distasteful minority on the leave side have been emboldened by the vote and the disarray, and Incidents of 'hate crime' have already significantly increased and need to be quickly stamped down by leaders of both sides of the campaign before they get out of hand. I fear that things will only get worse, as these idiots come to the realisation that immigration will not diminish significantly as a result of this decision, and that Nigel Farage was simply blatantly scaremongering in the most vile and base way in order to further his own political ends. My fervent hope is that Farage will have no further part to play in British politics, and that he fades away to the obscurity that he deserves.

Five days is not enough. Perhaps one or two months from now when the dust is settled, I will agree that we need to accept what has happened and work together for the good of the country going forward. Then will come the difficult decision of whether or not to vote for Scottish independence. I can't say that I feel particularly happy with either of the two options open to me. 'Remain' in a politically and socially divided UK with the prospect of being governed by a perpetual and increasingly right wing Tory party, or 'Leave' and embrace the uncertainty of independence in a small country that will probably have to apply for future EU membership and the uncertainty this will bring. 

I genuinely fear for what will happen in Northern Ireland. I think perhaps our focus will need to be on ensuring that this decision does not result in the re-establishment of border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That would be absolutely catastrophic. Hopefully, both the EU and the British Government will see sense and not allow this to happen. Freedom of movement needs to be retained, and I think a lot of people on the 'Leave' side are beginning to appreciate this.

Don, before I wind down and attempt to embrace your sentiment about working together I need to make one more point. The political leaders of the 'Leave' campaign were  well and truly aware that freedom of movement would almost certainly have to be retained in order for them to be able to negotiate a non catastrophic trade deal with the EU single market. Boris Johnson and the other more (shall we say) respectable leaders of the leave campaign chose to ignore this and hide behind Farage's more extreme and distasteful tactics.

Rant over!

For now at least.       

eazyryder posted:

tonym posted:

Distasteful? No, spot on, and rather funny to boot. It's not up to you to decide when a topic should be removed. Thankfully.

Oh dear.

Why cant you accept your countries decision like a grown up?, even your own constituency of west Norfolk decided 2 to 1 to leave the EU.

I would give up on this one if I were you. This thread is so one sided you have no chance of getting anywhere. 

We need to just get on with it. I can't believe how unprofessional the politicians are being, even the EU lot want us to do the article 50 thing asap. 

eazyryder posted:

tonym posted:

Distasteful? No, spot on, and rather funny to boot. It's not up to you to decide when a topic should be removed. Thankfully.

Oh dear.

Why cant you accept your countries decision like a grown up?, even your own constituency of west Norfolk decided 2 to 1 to leave the EU.

With all due respects, I think first of all,  you need to write English properly , unless you are an EU immigrant yourself?

totemphile posted:

ursus262 posted:

...Richard Branson isn't poor or working class.  Neither does he live in the North where there are shocking levels of poverty.  People with nothing don't care about the shrill messages he and others like him have for the nation.  They have nothing to lose!

The EU was only ever a neoliberal corporatist racket that has allowed a situation where London makes money hand over fist, and everyone else has virtually nothing.

Richard Branson not being working class is completely irrelevant, his companies employ 50,000 people in the UK. When investments are cancelled or put on hold jobs are at stake or being lost. He is just one example. Other companies are finding themselves in the same situation, which means more jobs are at stake. The situation is simply very bad for current and future employment across many sectors in Britain. People with nothing should care because it will be even more difficult to find a job in this climate.

Your second point has nothing to do with the EU. Blame your own government and governments past but not the EU.

 

I'm afraid that I totally disagree.  The issue is that he is far removed from the people at the bottom, and it is the people at the bottom who have spoken.  Many of the people who work for his businesses are either on the minimum wage, or on zero hours contracts.  While he has complained about the share prices of the business affected, we must remember that he is part of the establishment - the very establishment to which this vote appears to have struck a blow.

The second point is that our own government and the EU are pretty much one of the same, following neoliberal, corporatist ideologies ever since the Maastricht Treaty was signed.  In many respects, our own government's hands have been tied ever since.

Hmack posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

It would be nice if we could concentrate on ways of re-uniting this country.

I voted to remain.

I consider this episode had revealed the worst in British politicians, European politicians and many individuals. It's natural that feelings have been hurt and extremes of expression vented.

However, whatever the future brings, we have to work together. And that includes this forum.

It would be nice.

However, this referendum was won because of a series of lies and predictably undeliverable promises about immigrants and reallocation of money that is paid to the EU.

A small group of opportunists and a right wing press with vested interests have managed to hoodwink a large number of people into thinking that their concerns would be mitigated by a vote to leave. Not everyone who voted to leave, but enough to swing the vote in their direction.

Five days is not enough time for me to forgive and forget. This decision is going to cause chaos in many parts of the UK, and divisions have been created which will not easily be healed. The more unpleasant and distasteful minority on the leave side have been emboldened by the vote and the disarray, and Incidents of 'hate crime' have already significantly increased and need to be quickly stamped down by leaders of both sides of the campaign before they get out of hand. I fear that things will only get worse, as these idiots come to the realisation that immigration will not diminish significantly as a result of this decision, and that Nigel Farage was simply blatantly scaremongering in the most vile and base way in order to further his own political ends. My fervent hope is that Farage will have no further part to play in British politics, and that he fades away to the obscurity that he deserves.

Five days is not enough. Perhaps one or two months from now when the dust is settled, I will agree that we need to accept what has happened and work together for the good of the country going forward. Then will come the difficult decision of whether or not to vote for Scottish independence. I can't say that I feel particularly happy with either of the two options open to me. 'Remain' in a politically and socially divided UK with the prospect of being governed by a perpetual and increasingly right wing Tory party, or 'Leave' and embrace the uncertainty of independence in a small country that will probably have to apply for future EU membership and the uncertainty this will bring. 

I genuinely fear for what will happen in Northern Ireland. I think perhaps our focus will need to be on ensuring that this decision does not result in the re-establishment of border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That would be absolutely catastrophic. Hopefully, both the EU and the British Government will see sense and not allow this to happen. Freedom of movement needs to be retained, and I think a lot of people on the 'Leave' side are beginning to appreciate this.

Don, before I wind down and attempt to embrace your sentiment about working together I need to make one more point. The political leaders of the 'Leave' campaign were  well and truly aware that freedom of movement would almost certainly have to be retained in order for them to be able to negotiate a non catastrophic trade deal with the EU single market. Boris Johnson and the other more (shall we say) respectable leaders of the leave campaign chose to ignore this and hide behind Farage's more extreme and distasteful tactics.

Rant over!

For now at least.       

Hmack, I don't disagree with what you say. I actually agree with much of it and have found myself pointing these things out myself, both before and after the Referendum.

As  I said above, this episode has brought out the worst of politicians and people the world over.

For GBP 350 million, there is GBP 4,300. For cries of Leave lies, there are the Cameron deal and a reformed EU.  For Farage, see Guy Verhofstadt and Juncker. UKIP poster, Operation Black Vote poster. Intolerance on both sides. There's no high ground for Remain, they are in the same gutter.

Cheers,

OW