Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Being Japanese, we are never good at English, but I am glad to see that your  (EazRyder's)  English is comparable to mine.
Sorry for being off topic here, but I can not  help commenting as that makes me feel not too bad !!!

OscillateWildly posted:

For GBP 350 million, there is GBP 4,300. For cries of Leave lies, there are the Cameron deal and a reformed EU.  For Farage, see Guy Verhofstadt and Juncker. UKIP poster, Operation Black Vote poster. Intolerance on both sides. There's no high ground for Remain, they are in the same gutter.

Cheers,

OW

I have to agree with Oscillatewildly about the conduct of the campaign but it was what I expected in a binary poll. Thank God  the margin of victory was 1.3 million and not a couple of thousand or worse hundreds (imagine the recounts).

Ray

Frank F posted:

Well, well, well I thought that I had voted remain but I have just had a Postal poll card sent to me with a stamp saying "MISSENT TO MALASIA"  Was I disenfranchised, how many other postal votes from abroad have been "MISSENT" 

There are enough ex-Pats to swing the vote the other way!!

FF

Certainly quite a few.

My niece and her husband live in Canada and had applied for a postal vote. They would have voted 'Remain' if the postal poll cards they requested in good time had arrived. They didn't.

I expect that there were many similar stories, but hardly likely to amount to a million or so.

OscillateWildly posted:

For GBP 350 million, there is GBP 4,300. For cries of Leave lies, there are the Cameron deal and a reformed EU.  For Farage, see Guy Verhofstadt and Juncker. UKIP poster, Operation Black Vote poster. Intolerance on both sides. There's no high ground for Remain, they are in the same gutter.

Cheers,

OW

Eloise has eloquently dismissed your ridiculous statement.

How anyone has the bare-faced audacity to give any credence to Farage, and claim that there is any comparison between the campaign sides and their arguments is completely beyond me.

Well, now there are calls for the Tory party to be taken over by a small group of BREXIT Tory MPs who backed the 'Leave' campaign, because they are the only ones who can represent the UK in the forthcoming trade negotiations. Are you happy that a small group of inexperienced (with a few exceptions) and unrepresentative members of parliament should be given control of the Conservative party and our Government for the next four years, just because they happened to vote in a referendum for the BREXIT side?

There is obviously quite a few Remain voters on here and I have a few questions for them.

Do they think the institution apparatus is bureaucratic?

Do they think it offers good value for money for the EU citizens?

How do they reconcile the leaders of Labour and Conservatives previous let's say Luke warm enthusiasm for EU with their referendum campaigns?

Ray

I find this topic interesting, although at times some people have a tendency to try to belittle others' opinions by attacking some aspect of the person, which in fact does nothing other than belittle the author.

The only qualification for membership of this forum is acceptance of the individual by Naim. As it is a Naim forum, the vast majority are likely to have some interest in Naim, many as owners, some as past owners still liking to keep in touch, while some may have joined as potential future owners. That is our common thread, and I believe there Is neither requirement nor limitation on race, country of origin, country of residence, 'class', level of education, standard of English, etc.

Nor in respect of this particular thread is there any requirement to declare whether an individual has a direct vested interest, or what it may be if they do have one, although it may be relevant or of interest to others trying to understand the arguments - however that is up to the individual.

I have found some of the comments distasteful in the extreme, and am pleased to see that some remarks have been removed. I trust that others will refrain from such in the future - yes, we can avoid them by avoiding reading this thread, but that defeats the object of the forum, where it is interesting to read the views of different people with different backgrounds, knowledge and expectations, which can help any and all of us better understand what is going on and what might happen - and possibly how we might seek to influence things for the best, again accepting that individuals will have different ideas as to what is best, and recognising that the views of people on both sides of the leave arguments, and also those with no directly vested interest, may be equally valid contributions. The crying shame, and shame is the correct word, is that the arguments presented widely to the public during the campaign were so full of misleading or incorrect statements. All the UK can do is hope that out of the ashes of the political meltdown will arise a leadership that will genuinely assess what is best for Britain, and seek to achieve it, whether or not that is seeking a rapid exit from the EU...

For the record, I'm the 'wrong side' of 60 but voted remain, for a variety of reasons including fear that it would lead to just the chaos and confusion that seems to be happening, and fear that in the end Britain will not end up better, or better of, for having left, not least because the cost of trade deals could well end up comparable to the cost of membership. I would have preferred UK to stay in but keep battling to reduce the inexorable Brusselisation, and to seek to either pay less, get more rebate, or get back other tangible EU investment that seems only to be enjoyed by smaller countries. I now await political leadership leading to a properly considered plan of action that avoids hasty knee-jerk reaction and genuinely seeks the best outcome for the country, which may or may not involve invoking Article 50 sooner or later.

The crying shame is many of those who sought to give the establisment a good-kicking mistook direct democracy for representative democracy. The onus is on us, the voters, to understand what we're voting for.

C.

Mr Johnson says that he will not stand for the Cons Party leadership or to be the next PM! Does it mean he now knows that he has been wrong all along or he wants to avoid the responsibility of his own action or he knows that it is going to be real bad so he let someone else do the job?

No, it means that he knows leading the brexit campaign and successfully delivering its objectives has made him toxic to just under 50% oof the country. 

No, it means he's got Gove to be the fall guy.

I think he knows that he would not be able to deliver what he promised those who supported Brexit and as Gove has stepped forward, BJ has the perfect excuse to stand back and let him fail, leaving himself to enter the fray again in a few years time when everything is clearer. But I doubt that Gove will win.

thebigfredc posted:

 Thank God  the margin of victory was 1.3 million and not a couple of thousand or worse hundreds (imagine the recounts).

Ray

Ray,

You really ought to be careful which god to believe in.

Your margin of victory only looks correct in the interest of inappropriate electoral procedures, but if you want to dial in true democracy then your 1.3 million figures is completely misleading.

17, 401,742 voted to Leave

29,090,499 did not vote to Leave

Therefore the margin is 11,688,757  of the electorate not voting to leave the EU

Plus the Remain margin would have been even larger if 16 and 17 year olds were allowed to vote, it was very unjust to exclude them.

Debs

I think it's important, as far as far as possible, to reduce tension.  We should refrain therefore from labelling those that voted Leave as fascists, bigots, xenophobes etc they had legitimate concerns about the Brussels intrusion into the government of the UK.

But there is no hiding from the fact that this is disastrous for the UK - economically, socially, politically.   How it is resolved, despite having extensive experience of working across Whitehall,  I have no idea.   I'm actually beginning to think that despite assertions otherwise from No 10 that a new PM might be inclined to go back to the Country before invoking Clause 50.  How the questions would be framed I equally have no idea and for the outcome to be legitimate it would need to be a very positive result - one way or other.

Regards,

Lindsay

naim_nymph posted:

thebigfredc posted:

 Thank God  the margin of victory was 1.3 million and not a couple of thousand or worse hundreds (imagine the recounts).

Ray

Ray,

You really ought to be careful which god to believe in.

Your margin of victory only looks correct in the interest of inappropriate electoral procedures, but if you want to dial in true democracy then your 1.3 million figures is completely misleading.

17, 401,742 voted to Leave

29,090,499 did not vote to Leave

Therefore the margin is 11,688,757  of the electorate not voting to leave the EU

Plus the Remain margin would have been even larger if 16 and 17 year olds were allowed to vote, it was very unjust to exclude them.

Debs

Conversely, 

16,141,241 voted to remain.

30,351,000 did not vote to remain.

Therefore the margin is 14209759 of the electorate not voting to remain within the EU. 

thebigfredc posted:

There is obviously quite a few Remain voters on here and I have a few questions for them.

Do they think the institution apparatus is bureaucratic?

Yes, but no more so that the British government.

Do they think it offers good value for money for the EU citizens?

Yes. 

How do they reconcile the leaders of Labour and Conservatives previous let's say Luke warm enthusiasm for EU with their referendum campaigns?

Well the Labour leader was honest in his campaigning ... but apparently that isn't what anyone wanted him to be.

dave marshall posted:

naim_nymph posted:

17, 401,742 voted to Leave

29,090,499 did not vote to Leave

Therefore the margin is 11,688,757  of the electorate not voting to leave the EU

Conversely, 

16,141,241 voted to remain.

30,351,000 did not vote to remain.

Therefore the margin is 14209759 of the electorate not voting to remain within the EU. 

Which just goes to show that a stupid ***k up the who referendum was.  There was no plan (from anyone) what would happen if Leave won.  There was no consideration for what kind of Majority would be considered a victory to change the status quote (the the Question when it boiled down to it was ... Do you want the status quo in regard to our situation within the EU to be changed).

Though on another note ... seeing the candidates standing for election of the leader of the conservative party ... PLEASE come back David ... now I never thought I would ever be writing that!  Gove and May will both be a disaster.  

Non voters don't count never have and never will regardless of what you are voting for.

Eloise posted:

Though on another note ... seeing the candidates standing for election of the leader of the conservative party ... PLEASE come back David ... now I never thought I would ever be writing that!  Gove and May will both be a disaster.  

What about Crabb?

C.

dave marshall posted:

naim_nymph posted:

thebigfredc posted:

 Thank God  the margin of victory was 1.3 million and not a couple of thousand or worse hundreds (imagine the recounts).

Ray

Ray,

You really ought to be careful which god to believe in.

Your margin of victory only looks correct in the interest of inappropriate electoral procedures, but if you want to dial in true democracy then your 1.3 million figures is completely misleading.

17, 401,742 voted to Leave

29,090,499 did not vote to Leave

Therefore the margin is 11,688,757  of the electorate not voting to leave the EU

Plus the Remain margin would have been even larger if 16 and 17 year olds were allowed to vote, it was very unjust to exclude them.

Debs

Conversely, 

16,141,241 voted to remain.

30,351,000 did not vote to remain.

Therefore the margin is 14209759 of the electorate not voting to remain within the EU. 

 

There is no conversely other way around in this instance due the obvious reason that the only people who actually want an EU Brexit election are the minority of people who want the UK to leave the EU, the majority of UK people did not want or feel the need for this election so the onus is on the Brexit supporters to prove that over 50% of the electorate want to leave, and Brexit have not only clearly failed to demonstrate that but the results prove that far more eligible voters do not want the UK to Leave the EU. The EU election results are a miss-representation due to the electoral procedure being highly inappropriate in the circumstance.

Debs

Statisticians could play with the numbers and argue whatever they might want to. But the straight facts are:

1. A small majority of those who voted (2.7%) indicated a desire to leave the EU, based on the information of which they were aware at the time of voting 
2. Ten times as many eligible to vote (27.9%) abstained. The reasons can only be a matter of conjecture, but might reasonably include confusion or lack of clarity because of the mixed and evidently not definitive information that was made available to them. 
3. Of uncertain relevance perhaps: approximately 28% of the population wasn't eligible to vote. Some - but not all - of those will be due to young age (insufficient maturity to understand the ramifications).
4. it doesn't take much of a review of some of the populist propaganda that was presented before the referendum to see that some things were patently flawed (at best), with some of the post-referendum assessments of what exit will actually entail only just starting to show the complexity and cost involved.
5. Astounding though it is, none of the politicians or leading the country into the referendum appear to have had any thoughts as to how to proceed in the event of a 'leave' vote, not even the most basic of a fall-back 'plan B'.
6. The politicians in power are clearly unfit to run the country, now there's squabbling over who wants to be leader, and oddly one of the most prominent 'leave' campaigners has declined to seek to lead.
7. A hornet's nest has been stirred up between the component parts of the supposedly United Kingdom.
8. EU commissioners have been shown by some British politicians in the past few days just how fractured and leaderless Britain is, and understandably they want shot of us asap before we 'contaminate' the rest of the EU.

To my mind the one inescapable conclusion from the above  is that the UK urgently needs a general election (not a leadership fight), followed by a thorough review of the present position and the various options, to determine a way forward with a clear mandate from the people. Whether that should include another referendum is a moot point - I believe one is not essential from a legal point of view whichever way they go, but might be desirable, with very clear criteria, and campaigning limited to proveable facts.

whether that is what will happen, however, is anyone's guess...

banzai posted:

Being Japanese, we are never good at English, but I am glad to see that your  (EazRyder's)  English is comparable to mine.
Sorry for being off topic here, but I can not  help commenting as that makes me feel not too bad !!!

Hi Banzai,

Translating from a non-synthetic language with relatively clear roots (Japanese) to a synthetic language with completely mixed up roots (English) is always going to be complex and difficult.  I admire those who do so with such aplomb.  I certainly couldn't do it.

But then I'm tolerant, liberal and not in the least xenophobic, contrary to many of the arguments in this debate, particularly on the leave side.

Pcd posted:

Non voters don't count never have and never will regardless of what you are voting for.

That's just an argument for needing a qualified majority such as 66% - a figure often chosen by many organisation as the majority needed to get a mandate for constitutional change.

So with with 66% majority if you had a referendum (and you never would) then the country would explicitly have to accept as little as 1/3rd of the population being the 'winner'.

Would not look much like democracy.

I think the fact it was so close is, in some way, an argument for a referendum. A difficult decision therefore put to the people.

I hate the result myself (or more particularly the campaign lies that preceded it), but I have accepted it. I have just had to grind my teeth repeatedly when people come to see me and ask how we might spend the extra £350million per week in the NHS. Fantasyland .

Bruce

Ps. Did the Scots consider their referendum flawed?

Christopher_M posted:

What about Crabb?

C.

A tub thumper!  No thanks!