Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Quite so. First milk, then jobs and communities. 

She had bigger balls than Blair's and Cameron's put together.

Ray

Clay Bingham posted:

dayjay posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Magaret Thatcher was infinitely worse than Boris Johnson and David Cameron they are just amateurs compared to that monster.  'Battle of Oargreave',  'IRA Hungrer Strike' 'Care in the Community' need I go on Margaret Thatchers legacy is one of misery not national pride!

Its nice to be able to agree with someone on this thread and I couldn't agree more with that post.  

Fascinating. Again from the outside, Britain was the poor man of Europe before Thatcher. Strikes everywhere, aging non-competitive businesses, lazy and surly workforce, lousy product quality, a country still exhausted by WWII. Whatever you may think about her, the difference between before and after Thatcher Britain is night and day. Greater wealth, greater productivity, more home ownership, thriving industries, and a world class financial center.

Comments like this remind of comments made by Russian citizens when asked to reflect on the Soviet era. Unexpectedly, they have some fondness for that time. They concede they had no say in governance, nothing worked, and and they were as poor as church mice but they liked the fact that they had nothing together. They were all treated poorly. Human nature is interesting.

 Apologies for going off thread. Won't do it again.

"lazy and surly workforce" "lousy product quality" "more home ownership" some absolute gems but the best by a mile "a country still exhausted by WWII"  WOW!

Dayjay, Allante. Thanks for the insights. Looking in is never the same as being in. The piece on elites had a counterpart in the New York Times a day or two ago.

Bob: That time period was very interesting. If you give it a close look, you'll be fascinated. I enjoy history because of all the insights. Keeps an old guy going.

Cheers  all.

thebigfredc posted:

She had bigger balls than Blair's and Cameron's put together.

Ray

So has my German Shepard but he'd make a terrible Prime Minister 

Clay Bingham posted:

Dayjay, Allante. Thanks for the insights. Looking in is never the same as being in. The piece on elites had a counterpart in the New York Times a day or two ago.

Bob: That time period was very interesting. If you give it a close look, you'll be fascinated. I enjoy history because of all the insights. Keeps an old guy going.

 

Cheers  all.

 

Thanks for the condescension Clay the next time I go online and start spouting about things I don't really understand I will take your advice and take a closer look.

Clay Bingham posted:

Dayjay, Allante. Thanks for the insights. Looking in is never the same as being in. The piece on elites had a counterpart in the New York Times a day or two ago.

Bob: That time period was very interesting. If you give it a close look, you'll be fascinated. I enjoy history because of all the insights. Keeps an old guy going.

 

Cheers  all.

 

I agree Clay, looking in, is not the same as being in.

 I just mention Marget Thatcher, and wow!

She's a Monster, etc.....

But the British Exit, or Brexit.

 Dissension in the Party, even in 1988!

Two types of Elitist:

Blaming The Elites, For The Rise of Populism

 Nice read:

Well, back to hi fi corner!

Allante93!

dayjay posted:

thebigfredc posted:

She had bigger balls than Blair's and Cameron's put together.

Ray

So has my German Shepard but he'd make a terrible Prime Minister 

I am not sure. Dogs have qualities that prime ministers often tend to neglect. But in the current situation a border collie would perhaps be a more sensible proposition than a german shepard. Best, nbpf

So, let me get this straight...

the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they'd all done nothing to help them.
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. 
Clear?

copy & pasted and hope it's not been posted here prior

Seems a spot-on summary!

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

That's a great summary, makes you realise what a ridiculous situation the UK finds itself in (and that includes me unfortunately!)

the_third_mind posted:

So, let me get this straight,............there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. 
Clear?

copy & pasted and hope it's not been posted here prior

Very clear, spot on!

Meanwhile their health care, is far better than the norm.

There salary enables them to purchase a Statement, if the choose.

And the only thing that really matters is to lengthen their political career!

Got!

Thanks Third_Mind!

Allante93!

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

No it's not. The map on the right is simply a monochrome rendition of the map on the left.

Shame, because I thoroughly agree with the implication.

Newsnight (BBC 2) has just opened with Dylan's "Positively 4th Street" playing over video clips of Gove & Johnson.  Brilliant use of soundtrack.

elkman70 posted:

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

Excellent, more misinformation, or outright lie as the case may be, another example of statistical reporting that is inaccurate and more scare tactics.  A worthy contribution to project fear.  And you wonder why you lost

dayjay posted:

elkman70 posted:

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

Excellent, more misinformation, or outright lie as the case may be, another example of statistical reporting that is inaccurate and more scare tactics.  A worthy contribution to project fear.  And you wonder why you lost

Or just maybe the utterly British habit of taking the piss a bit, and never even intended to be taken seriously.

dayjay posted:

elkman70 posted:

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

Excellent, more misinformation, or outright lie as the case may be, another example of statistical reporting that is inaccurate and more scare tactics.  A worthy contribution to project fear.  And you wonder why you lost

don't be a knob. it's just a joke.

'Tis the British way - laughing is better than crying

Bananahead posted:

dayjay posted:

elkman70 posted:

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

Excellent, more misinformation, or outright lie as the case may be, another example of statistical reporting that is inaccurate and more scare tactics.  A worthy contribution to project fear.  And you wonder why you lost

don't be a knob. it's just a joke.

A joke? ...pull the udder one...

Leave voters may have BSE but the politicians have foot in mouth disease : (

Bob the Builder posted:

Magaret Thatcher was infinitely worse than Boris Johnson and David Cameron they are just amateurs compared to that monster.  'Battle of Oargreave',  'IRA Hungrer Strike' 'Care in the Community' need I go on Margaret Thatchers legacy is one of misery not national pride!

For me she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe.  I don't see the likes of Corbyn or Boris Johnson doing the same in the best of imaginations!  She was at least a leader for better or worse. 

Romi posted:

...she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe. 

This is complete nonsense, Margaret Thatcher played no part in bringing the Berlin Wall down. It is well documented that she told Gorbachev personally in 1989 how strongly she was opposed to reunification. During that meeting she is reported to have said: “We do not want a united Germany.”  “This would lead to a change to post-war borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.” 

It was only because France, the Soviet Union and the United States all supported German reunification that Thatcher gradually altered her position. If it had been up to her, the Berlin Wall would still be up today. 

Bananahead posted:

dayjay posted:

elkman70 posted:

Brexit map vs mad cow disease map

Excellent, more misinformation, or outright lie as the case may be, another example of statistical reporting that is inaccurate and more scare tactics.  A worthy contribution to project fear.  And you wonder why you lost

don't be a knob. it's just a joke.

On this thread I am just as entitled to be a knob, as you so elegantly put it, as everyone else.  As for it being a joke, again, on this thread it's a little difficult to tell.  After all, at first I thought that the assertation that the Remain campaign had somehow won because all of those people who didn't get off their arse and vote should be counted as remain votes was a joke, along with the statement that a straight two choice vote delivered as part of an election manifesto pledge was, in fact, an undemocratic process.  The belief that old people and stupid people should not be allowed to vote had me rolling with laughter.  You can imagine my surprise when I found out that they  were serious statements, so when I saw this subtle, deeply creative and intelligent  example of biting satire I thought I'd better not take the chance and treat as a statement of fact.