Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

totemphile posted:

Romi posted:

...she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe. 

This is complete nonsense, Margaret Thatcher played no part in bringing the Berlin Wall down. It is well documented that she told Gorbachev personally in 1989 how strongly she was opposed to reunification. During that meeting she is reported to have said: “We do not want a united Germany.”  “This would lead to a change to post-war borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.” 

It was only because France, the Soviet Union and the United States all supported German reunification that Thatcher gradually altered her position. If it had been up to her, the Berlin Wall would still be up today. 

 

 

I couldn't see Corbyn retaking the Falklands back in the event of another Argentinian invasion.

Christopher_M posted:

Eloise posted:

Though on another note ... seeing the candidates standing for election of the leader of the conservative party ... PLEASE come back David ... now I never thought I would ever be writing that!  Gove and May will both be a disaster.  

What about Crabb?

C.

This is the man who has said homosexuality can be cured! I don't think we should give him the time of day. Unfortunately I don't want to give any of them the time of day and frankly, dread any of them being in 'charge'. 

thebigfredc posted:

totemphile posted:

Romi posted:

...she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe. 

This is complete nonsense, Margaret Thatcher played no part in bringing the Berlin Wall down. It is well documented that she told Gorbachev personally in 1989 how strongly she was opposed to reunification. During that meeting she is reported to have said: “We do not want a united Germany.”  “This would lead to a change to post-war borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.” 

It was only because France, the Soviet Union and the United States all supported German reunification that Thatcher gradually altered her position. If it had been up to her, the Berlin Wall would still be up today. 

 

 

I couldn't see Corbyn retaking the Falklands back in the event of another Argentinian invasion.

Oh my God The Falklands surely not please no more political satire. 

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

And indeed, looking at the data confirmed that areas with high obesity levels were much more likely to vote Leave even when controlling for income, health, education, economic activity, and age. It would be naive to think that body-weight itself is a driver of voting preferences. However, it is a measurable characteristic that could help us understand the psychology of voters.

So now we have the old, the stupid and the fat to blame. 

Sounds fishy to me....

Added to which, my sister in law voted out despite my protestations and although she certainly is old and stupid, she isn't all that fat.

best

David

charnik posted:

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

And indeed, looking at the data confirmed that areas with high obesity levels were much more likely to vote Leave even when controlling for income, health, education, economic activity, and age. It would be naive to think that body-weight itself is a driver of voting preferences. However, it is a measurable characteristic that could help us understand the psychology of voters.

 

Distancing the temptations of the butter mountain?

G

charnik posted:

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

And indeed, looking at the data confirmed that areas with high obesity levels were much more likely to vote Leave even when controlling for income, health, education, economic activity, and age. It would be naive to think that body-weight itself is a driver of voting preferences. However, it is a measurable characteristic that could help us understand the psychology of voters.

 

Right, I'm confused now, is this one a joke too?

It's the perfect hatrick for me.

Ray

Phil Maffetone's artcile reflect my views :eat fat,get slim think better and create better societies...

Fat Burning Can Save the World

here how it starts:

totemphile posted:

Romi posted:

...she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe. 

This is complete nonsense, Margaret Thatcher played no part in bringing the Berlin Wall down. It is well documented that she told Gorbachev personally in 1989 how strongly she was opposed to reunification. During that meeting she is reported to have said: “We do not want a united Germany.”  “This would lead to a change to post-war borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.” 

It was only because France, the Soviet Union and the United States all supported German reunification that Thatcher gradually altered her position. If it had been up to her, the Berlin Wall would still be up today. 

 

 

Then we agree to disagree.  The above may be true but she was in public and official language very anti soviet 'style' of communism and together with President Reagan formed a formidable force at least in diplomatic circles.

What was so refreshing about her in foreign policy matters that she always held her ground, she knew what soviet eastern Europe meant to democracy,  I would question your above statement whether it has been taken out of context to the whole discussion with Gorbachev,,?   

dayjay posted:

charnik posted:

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

And indeed, looking at the data confirmed that areas with high obesity levels were much more likely to vote Leave even when controlling for income, health, education, economic activity, and age. It would be naive to think that body-weight itself is a driver of voting preferences. However, it is a measurable characteristic that could help us understand the psychology of voters.

 

Right, I'm confused now, is this one a joke too?

I suspect not. The less well educated tended to vote in favour of Brexit. Obesity is linked to social grouping, so it makes sense. 

FULL OF  ....................................................

Romi posted:

totemphile posted:

Romi posted:

...she was rock solid in the foreign affairs department and contributed significantly in getting the Berlin wall down and ending Soviet rule in Eastern Europe. 

This is complete nonsense, Margaret Thatcher played no part in bringing the Berlin Wall down. It is well documented that she told Gorbachev personally in 1989 how strongly she was opposed to reunification. During that meeting she is reported to have said: “We do not want a united Germany.”  “This would lead to a change to post-war borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.” 

It was only because France, the Soviet Union and the United States all supported German reunification that Thatcher gradually altered her position. If it had been up to her, the Berlin Wall would still be up today. 

 

 

Then we agree to disagree.  The above may be true but she was in public and official language very anti soviet 'style' of communism and together with President Reagan formed a formidable force at least in diplomatic circles.

What was so refreshing about her in foreign policy matters that she always held her ground, she knew what soviet eastern Europe meant to democracy,  I would question your above statement whether it has been taken out of context to the whole discussion with Gorbachev,,?   

Romi, I'm afraid it's not a question of agreement, it's a historical fact, detached from personal opinions. If you are interested in more background information, take a look at this site, I came across it today while checking the dates again. 

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112006

Best

tp

David Hendon posted:

Sounds fishy to me....

You're right... The port regions voted to leave too!

Hungryhalibut posted:

dayjay posted:

charnik posted:

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

And indeed, looking at the data confirmed that areas with high obesity levels were much more likely to vote Leave even when controlling for income, health, education, economic activity, and age. It would be naive to think that body-weight itself is a driver of voting preferences. However, it is a measurable characteristic that could help us understand the psychology of voters.

 

Right, I'm confused now, is this one a joke too?

I suspect not. The less well educated tended to vote in favour of Brexit. Obesity is linked to social grouping, so it makes sense. 

Yep, less affluent areas where there are less opportunities and lower standards of education.  I thought it was interesting that some of the areas in Wales, where huge amount of 'EU' cash has been invested voted out.  I suspect that academics will be reviewing these results and trying to understand all of the implications and nuances for decades to come

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So with with 66% majority if you had a referendum (and you never would) then the country would explicitly have to accept as little as 1/3rd of the population being the 'winner'.

Would not look much like democracy.

I think the fact it was so close is, in some way, an argument for a referendum. A difficult decision therefore put to the people.

I hate the result myself (or more particularly the campaign lies that preceded it), but I have accepted it. I have just had to grind my teeth repeatedly when people come to see me and ask how we might spend the extra £350million per week in the NHS. Fantasyland .

Bruce

Ps. Did the Scots consider their referendum flawed?

The Scottish referendum was also flawed, and there is certainly a requirement to build in some safeguards when the second one comes around, as appears to be inevitable.

However, the referendum itself was by and large conducted in a much less acrimonious way. Although both sides would claim that scaremongering was to the fore, we hade nothing like the bare-faced untruths (lies) and extremely distasteful propaganda that abounded on the leave side of the EU referendum campaigns.

Finally, the verdict of the referendum was accepted with good grace by the  losing side, perhaps because the turnout was greater than that of the EU campaign, as was the margin of victory.  This, combined with the generally responsible and considered nature of the campaigns on either side has meant that bridges have not been broken, and that more than a few people on the 'Remain' side first time round are now seriously considering a switch to the 'Leave' side. My own position is that I did not vote to leave the UK in the last Independence referendum. However, although Nicola Sturgeon is not my party leader, she inspires a great deal more confidence (for me at least) than any of her counterparts in contention for leadership of the major UK parties.   

Are you saying that Micheal Gove who voted to leave is less well educated , I hope not as he could be our next Prime Minister ??

Dear PCD san, you should know that politicians are the same everywhere (even in my country),  what  they think, believe  are usually opposite to what they say.

Pcd posted:

Are you saying that Micheal Gove who voted to leave is less well educated , I hope not as he could be our next Prime Minister ??

Well... "From 1985 to 1988 he studied English at Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford, where he served as President of the Oxford Union. He was awarded a 2:1-degree."

Not sure if an English degree counts as well educated or not!

This well educated thing means nothing. Some of the most "well educated" people I know haven't got a clue about anything and completely lack common sense.

Hungryhalibut posted:

charnik posted:

The weight of Brexit: Areas with high obesity rates more likely to vote Leave

Right, I'm confused now, is this one a joke too?

I suspect not. The less well educated tended to vote in favour of Brexit. Obesity is linked to social grouping, so it makes sense. Dead on HH!!!

""Whether it’s Donald Trump or the Brexit movement, the rise of populism has helped crystalize the fact that there are two kinds of elites: those who like to bash populists for being foolish, and those who like to bash other elites for failing to give populists enough of what they want.""

Same game different Country, Trump tends to far better with the less educated also!

But by all means, don't fall into the trap, which pits one side against the other.

As pointed out in the Article: Blaming the Elites, for the rise in Populism.

But focus on the Polices, which the writer points outs, are very similar between the Leave & Stay Campaign.

I'm not familiar with Margaret Thatcher's polices, or record, during her reign.

However, she did belong to the Leave campaign

THE BRITISH EXIT

So the lesson is, not to bash each other up aside the head,  but focus on polices, and hold the elected officials accountable.

 At the end of the Day, lengthening their political career, is all that really matters.

 Allante93!

No, just a poll, where the numbers reflect the less educated tend to vote a certain way, that's all!

Drewy posted:

This well educated thing means nothing. Some of the most "well educated" people I know haven't got a clue about anything and completely lack common sense.

 

Yeah, spot on. I've had just about enough of these "experts". All my knowledge comes from Twitter.