Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

UK National Sovereignty.

Is that concise enough for you?

It is a philosophical point perhaps, but it is why millions gave their lives to defend a philosophy of existence.

ATB from George

No. What do you expect me to answer to that???

It's extremely vague. You can have national sovereignty in a dictatorship (not implying the UK is a dictatorship...).

There is nothing vague about National Sovereignty!

There is no point for you to answer ...

But the Eurocrats would love us to believe that it IS vague and not of significance!

ATB from George

'National Sovereignty' cannot be an answer to the question 'what are those laws that Europe stops you having?' because national sovereignty is not a law. 

Frenchnaim is asking specifically which laws the UK cannot have due to being part of Europe. 

Frenchnaim posted:

What are those laws that Europe stops you having? Only precise answers, please.

 

Start with EU Commission Regulation 1178/2011.

Have a little read of the Regulation, but for simplicity, tell me what you think about the initial EU requirement that the UK terminate their IMC Rating, which was unique to the UK and purely "for the sake of harmonisation" had to be scrapped.

I hope this is specific enough for you. It illustrates the extreme beaurocracey (*) that resides in Europe. And it illustrates the amount of (wastefull) time and effort that is required to bring these idiots to their senses.

(*) is this a derivitive of beaureax & crazey.............

I hope the referendum will result in either a No or a clear Yes to remain in the EU. A vague Yes will help nobody.

I hope that it will yield a No!

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

I hope that it will yield a No!

ATB from George

Well, we could have guessed that already .

Well, I hope it yields a yes. Hopefully it will also rip the Tories apart. They are doing a very good job of that already - it would be quite amusing if the stakes weren't so high. 

Sovereignty - local or national - is important, George. But if it was at the top of the agenda for me, I'd be voting for the National Front - a linear descendant of the Vichy regime. They want us out of Europe.

Europe is not the be-all and end-all. I believe it's imperfect, but my own life is, I would say, "better" (whatever that means) in Europe.

And, yes, I will look up "EU Commission Regulation 1178/2011". I'm sure it's of vital importance to Great Britain.

I hope the referendum yields a strong yes.  Regardless of what the result means for any of our political parties, I strongly believe that continued membership of the EU is in the best interests of the people of the UK, both today and for future generations.  

As we all probably know, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors with Cameron.

He does not want to leave EU and I doubt that he ever has. He decided to have a referendum to appease the wrangling that was going on with the Euro-sceptics within the Conservative Party and to try to spike UKIP's guns before the last General Election, and is gambling that there will be a vote to stay in.

The new deal is marginal but to be fair is a bit more than I thought he would get - which itself plays to the “best of both worlds” narrative that Cameron is trying to create here - and does support a general desire of other countries to keep the UK in. However there was never going to be a fundamental redefinition of the UK's relationship with the EU.

I am on balance in favour of staying in - but it is quite a close balance and does include an unquantifiable element of the fear of the unknown and certainly not an optimistic vision for Bremaining. So Cameron might just pull the gamble off in the way that the Scottish independence referendum just about went the "right" way from his perspective and which result possibly encouraged this strategy.

Accordingly part of me would really like the nation to vote to leave - if only to avoid seeing Cameron's smug face if he gets what he has been conniving for 

Chris Dolan posted:

Accordingly part of me would really like the nation to vote to leave - if only to avoid seeing Cameron's smug face if he gets what he has been conniving for 

I think this could be one of the bigger factors leading to a possible sleepwalking "Out" vote.

MDS posted:

I hope the referendum yields a strong yes.  Regardless of what the result means for any of our political parties, I strongly believe that continued membership of the EU is in the best interests of the people of the UK, both today and for future generations.  

If the result is, “Yes,” stay in, then that is a democratic result. One does not need to agree with it to accept it.

ATB from George

Hungryhalibut posted:

'National Sovereignty' cannot be an answer to the question 'what are those laws that Europe stops you having?' because national sovereignty is not a law. 

Frenchnaim is asking specifically which laws the UK cannot have due to being part of Europe. 

I think that not only can it be an answer to the question but clearly has already been one. 

ATB from George

Hungryhalibut posted:

'National Sovereignty' cannot be an answer to the question 'what are those laws that Europe stops you having?' because national sovereignty is not a law. 

Frenchnaim is asking specifically which laws the UK cannot have due to being part of Europe. 

Yes, and I asked the parallel question yesterday on this thread and none of those banging on about 'national sovereignty' answered it. 

There is much confusion - yesterday someone on the Guardian thread made a similar connection between national sovereignty and democracy - a really basic misunderstanding.

Clive

Quite, and exactly the sort of 'ridiculous bureaucracy' the out campaign would want to get rid of. That's why leaving is so scary - there are far more loons in the UK parliament than in Brussels, in my view. 

hmm at least we, the UK population, can vote the UK parliament loons out.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Quite, and exactly the sort of 'ridiculous bureaucracy' the out campaign would want to get rid of. That's why leaving is so scary - there are far more loons in the UK parliament than in Brussels, in my view. 

Are you saying that the British cannot be trusted to vote for a civilised government?

I thought that it was somewhere else that did that sort of thing.

Of course if the British cannot be trusted with democracy, then we should immediately surrender our sovereignty to whom so ever can be trusted to propose such a civilised government ... that you would trust ... to be civilised.

And we should bow to your self-asserted superior understanding. However I would oppose that situation, and oppose you in your proposed course of action. I would say a self asserted promotion of an individual superioirity is what caused the Nazis to find themselves in opposition to the more or less the whole World by 1945.

Yours sincerely, George Johnson

George - exactly my thoughts - not trusting the electorate to vote its government takes you in a direction that many of my family fought to guard against in the 1940s

I was simply saying that the European Parliament is a useful moderation on our Government's wilder ideas. Without the Working Time Directive, for example, one could see the UK free marketeers working their staff around the clock. I never said anything about not trusting the electorate, despite so many seeming happy to swallow the Daily Mail's bile hook, line and sinker. 

Why bring the Daily Mail into it?

I don’t subscribe to that media organ, and nor do most people.

The British Government does not need to be protected from the wish of the British electorate even slightly.

ATB from George

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

hmm at least we, the UK population, can vote the UK parliament loons out.

unless they change the law to prevent it of course 

As I noted above, I thought that was something they did elsewhere.

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Of course if the British cannot be trusted with democracy.......

I certainly hope that there is a high turn out across the UK - whatever the result.