Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

The population of the UK will never fully engage with politics while (a) there is the elite class of those appointed into power in the form of the House of Lords and (b) while around 5-10% (I think thats the figure) of the population effectively decide the result - meaning that there are only a few seats where a meaningful swing will result in a different overall result in parliament.

A wholesale review / reassessment of British politics is needed ... a campaign to truly "take back control" ... but that is not in the interest of either of the main parties.

AV was the beginning of a long and bumpy road to PR.  PR would never have been put on the table as the first option. It was a start. It was roundly rejected. It seems that we know our place. And we'll keep it. Maybe in another two or three generations...

Eloise posted:

A wholesale review / reassessment of British politics is needed ... a campaign to truly "take back control" ... but that is not in the interest of either of the main parties.

Cameron gave us a chance to adopt PR in the fairly early days of the coalition. We rejected it.

C.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I know some of the establishment politicians liked  to portray the youth as a homogenous group all voting one way - the young in my part of the world seemed quite split on the matter.

I don't think people (in the establishment or press) think the "youth" are homogenous; but there are patterns.  But of course there are also over lapping patterns.

• Generally across the country the younger you are the more likely you were to have voted to remain in the EU.
• However in the East (your part of the world) generally you were more likely to have voted to leave the EU.  

That suggest that the youth demographic in "your part of the world" were more likely to have voted out than the youth across the UK.

Statistics and analysis of statistics and voting thoughts is never a simple interaction ... though I suspect if you go down deeper than age and location; you can probably predict most people's voting record based on statistics analysing the population as a whole.

(Not preaching to you really Simon, just taking up your comment a little).

Christopher_M posted:

Eloise posted:

A wholesale review / reassessment of British politics is needed ... a campaign to truly "take back control" ... but that is not in the interest of either of the main parties.

Cameron gave us a chance to adopt PR in the fairly early days of the coalition. We rejected it.

Cameron never believed in changing the voting system though.  The AV referendum (and AV is not PR and wasn't supported by any party but was all the Lib Dems could manage to get put to the people) was simply a sop to the Lib Dems.  The same reason (though as a sop to different group) why he promised a referendum on the EU!

Harry posted:

AV was the beginning of a long and bumpy road to PR.  PR would never have been put on the table as the first option. It was a start. It was roundly rejected. It seems that we know our place. And we'll keep it. Maybe in another two or three generations...

PR was never going to be offered because neither the Conservatives nor Labour benefit in PR.  And before anyone says ... yes but if we had PR then UKIP would have got upto 100 seats ... well good ... if they get that much of the vote they deserve that many seats.

For a change, those in charge need to be prepared to loose (some) power for the good of the nation.  And I can't see any of the current lot doing that.

The current proposals for changing the constituency boundaries is going to do nothing to ensure that people actually have a say; it will reduce the number of seats which will swing.

Re .......... Younger demographic in the East UK were more likely to have voted to leave the EU.  

I have seen that clearly demonstrated back in June;  Having got used to the younger people in my sphere being very pro-EU,   I was shocked by a group of people from the Lincs area I met up with at a wedding.   I was taken aback by the level of feelings amongst the younger people, most all well educated & doing well for themselves but all clearly influenced by the negative effect of EU migration on the local environment.  

Although there have been a few individuals in both the Labour and Conservative parties who have claimed to support PR, the only party which has genuinely supported and promoted PR has been the Liberals and their various offshoots. Unfortunately, they have now completely lost their way, and I can't see any hope for them to recover their former ground in any significant way in the foreseeable  future.

As Eloise has stated, the Labour and Conservative parties each have perpetual conflicting agendas that would not benefit from PR, and so the chances of a second referendum on the topic are minimal. Unfortunately, the British voting public tends to vote in a way that perpetuates the status quo. The Labour and Conservative parties each have hard core supporters who would never dream of voting for any party other than their own, no matter what their manifesto might be leading up to an election. A significant number of the remainder of the electorate opt  to vote against one of the big two, and see a vote for a central or 'liberal' alternative as being a wasted vote that will potentially help the other big party to gain power. Consequently a large number of the potential supporters of the centre ground who might favour PR tend to vote tactically for one of the big two parties, and of course, these parties play on this during the lead up to an election.

I have long considered that a true PR system is the only true form of democracy, and the only system of government that will move us away from our current overly adversarial political scene, where scoring a cheap political point or jibe in parliamentary debates appears to be more prized than genuinely taking part in a serious political debate. I sometimes completely fail to see the point of debates in our chamber of parliament. They are almost all utterly meaningless, because almost any debate that might have any real meaning becomes subject to the party 'whip', and individuals have absolutely no discretion to vote with their own conscience.  We have a perpetual position where a party which has gained perhaps around 40% of the votes cast in an election (far less in percentage terms of the electorate as a whole) claims to have a clear mandate to deliver every single policy (no matter how divisive) in its manifesto. As a result, we perpetually have a scenario where the vast majority of the people in the country feel completely disenfranchised.     

Some people still claim that the British parliamentary system is the 'Mother' of all democratic parliaments, and a shining example to the rest of the world. Do these people ever watch our parliamentary debates?   

I don't know about PR but the current system is certainly jaded and in need of shaking up to allow true change.  I know many of us disagreed but one of the 'gain's' from brexit in my view was the shaking up of the established political systems.  My concern now is that, Labour Party excluded as no one knows where that is going, the establishment will wait for things to settle down and introduce a half way house that helps preserve what we previously had.

Eloise posted:

The current proposals for changing the constituency boundaries is going to do nothing to ensure that people actually have a say; it will reduce the number of seats which will swing.

This has been happening my whole life. It won't change and they are all just a bad as eachother. 

UKIP make me physically sick. But the number of seats they got at the last GE compared to the proportion of the vote they achieved is telling. 

The scenario of them hoovering up scores of seats is a reason given for avoiding PR. So democracy is fine if it suits the status quo.  Noble considerations are the province of cowboys and spacemen in films. In reality nobody want's to let go of what they have their sweaty grasping hands clutched around, or the possibility that next time they'll grasp onto more. This is why the LDs would be embarrassing if they actually existed any more. And possibly why Corbin is seen as such a threat?

I'm told Brexit is known in some circles as "the Eton mess".

Hmm the fact the country had allowed itself to become so entrenched with systems and processes within the EU that I suspect most of the electorate were oblivious to I call an establishment mess... at least we woke up before it was too late.

Regarding PR and the liberals I totally agree. One half of my family has traditionally been liberal going back generations ... and it's a real disappointment to see the state of the liberals now and their dogged pro EU stance... severeal of my liberal ancestors will be turning in their graves I'm sure. 

Now in the forthcoming labour leadership election I just can't see Smoth winning especially with his ignore the will of the people view on the referendum ... Corbyn appears to have much ground swell support.. and it's it is hard not to quite like the guy even though I don't agree with much of his politics. So if Corbyn does win.. I think the Labour Party could split... and the we might see a new social liberal party ... with some sort assemblage of Farron and Smith supporters... they will need to let the EU thing blow out and accept it..(both Farron and Smith are on a negative path of denial currently). but once that is out of the way it could be an interesting party...

BBC just announced that Cameron is to step down as an MP, thus creating the need for a by-election.  I can understand why he felt he needed to stand down as PM but regardless of the result of the referendum on EU membership I would have thought his commitment to serve his constituents for the full parliament should be unaffected.  Hmmm. 

I do not blame him, over the last few weeks he has discovered the feeling of inner peace of not having to keep pushing the boulder of UK politics up a steep and slippery hill.

Given that he took us into a ridiculous referendum solely because he was too spineless to control his rabid right wingers, I'm surprised he can sleep at night. He always was a lazy bastard. 

And as a full time UK businessman he'll now presumably be fat and lazy.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Given that he took us into a ridiculous referendum solely because he was too spineless to control his rabid right wingers, I'm surprised he can sleep at night. He always was a lazy bastard. 

Wow

In democracies I don't know that you can ever control the extremes of the political spectrum. Almost always you can outnumber and therefore outflank them. But the task is never an easy  one. From afar Cameron seemed a very decent man and P.M. There are some undercurrents in the western democracies, immigration and world trade among them, that will be a challenge to all of us going forward. The referendum had a certain logic which made it a very reasonable choice initially.  Then came the surprise. Cameron was caught out by the changes. We are being similarly surprised by a Mr. Trump. I think we will turn him back but one never knows for sure until the votes are counted.

He is a privileged upper class tosser who doesn't give a damn. A decent man? No. 

Harry posted:

And as a full time UK businessman he'll now presumably be fat and lazy.

Certainly Fat....If his holiday snaps are anything to go by...

MDS posted:

BBC just announced that Cameron is to step down as an MP, thus creating the need for a by-election.  I can understand why he felt he needed to stand down as PM but regardless of the result of the referendum on EU membership I would have thought his commitment to serve his constituents for the full parliament should be unaffected.  Hmmm. 

My view as well ---

I noticed that Junckers is calling for an HQ for his dream of an EU Army.

I think I mentioned this before, and it was poo-poo'ed. Seems a bit more substantial now.

Perhaps Edinburgh would be a good place, for when Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU ?

The French (sorry EU) nuclear submarines could be based at Faslane and keep Scotland employed !

I foresee quite a few unintended consequences of this decision to leave the EU. It would be nice to hear of some that are super-beneficial. At the moment, I don't actually see any ! But it would be nice to hear from others who can.

We will save a fortune by not having to contribute to The White Elephant and be able to divert it all to the NHS instead..........

Steve2 posted:

We will save a fortune by not having to contribute to The White Elephant and be able to divert it all to the NHS instead..........

Should be able to resolve the Junior Doctor's gripes in one fell swoop......

Don Atkinson posted:

I foresee quite a few unintended consequences of this decision to leave the EU. It would be nice to hear of some that are super-beneficial. At the moment, I don't actually see any ! But it would be nice to hear from others who can.

It can sometimes be interesting to see the ideas of 'notable figures'.  Have a look for recent articles regarding what Sir David Attenborough thinks could be done about using this time as opportunity to preserve wildlife.  This sort of thing may be insignificant to most people, however it is still valid as a way of moving forward and more ideas will emerge.

Also since this is a music oriented community, some of you may be interested or have noticed some other opinions from 'leave' supporters including Morrissey (formerly of The Smiths) and Ringo Starr.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

MDS posted:

BBC just announced that Cameron is to step down as an MP, thus creating the need for a by-election.  I can understand why he felt he needed to stand down as PM but regardless of the result of the referendum on EU membership I would have thought his commitment to serve his constituents for the full parliament should be unaffected.  Hmmm. 

My view as well ---

It'll be interesting to see if he joins the gravy train lecture circuit much as Blair did.