Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

sheffieldgraham posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

MDS posted:

BBC just announced that Cameron is to step down as an MP, thus creating the need for a by-election.  I can understand why he felt he needed to stand down as PM but regardless of the result of the referendum on EU membership I would have thought his commitment to serve his constituents for the full parliament should be unaffected.  Hmmm. 

My view as well ---

It'll be interesting to see if he joins the gravy train lecture circuit much as Blair did.

I gather there's an autobiography planned, with the media focus being on whether he can surpass Tony Bliar's 4.6m publisher's advance.

Makes you laugh?

I think Cameron's family and his wife's are both worth millions already so I don't think he'll need to provide for his old age through writing and doing speeches.

MDS posted:

I think Cameron's family and his wife's are both worth millions already so I don't think he'll need to provide for his old age through writing and doing speeches.

Unfortunately, that will not stop him indulging in either, I fear. 

UN address from President Obama....

"This crisis is a test of our common humanity - whether we give in to suspicion and fear and build walls, or whether we see ourselves in another."

I fear for the future. We are failing this test. Brexit, rabid right-wingers gaining ground in Germany, Hanson in Australia, Trump in the US. It ends badly.

winkyincanada posted:

I fear for the future.

Fear for the future often seems the role of the elder generation, but we should have done something right in raising our offspring that provides a positive outlook. I look at my kids (both in their early 20's) and I see lots of potential good for the world.

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

I fear for the future.

Fear for the future often seems the role of the elder generation, but we should have done something right in raising our offspring that provides a positive outlook. I look at my kids (both in their early 20's) and I see lots of potential good for the world.

I share that sentiment, Joe. 

MDS posted:

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

I fear for the future.

Fear for the future often seems the role of the elder generation, but we should have done something right in raising our offspring that provides a positive outlook. I look at my kids (both in their early 20's) and I see lots of potential good for the world.

I share that sentiment, Joe. 

I feel you gentleman, and yes Winky, this crisis isn't unique.  

Beit, Australia, Europe, Canada, or the US, a movement is in the making.

Populism, beit, the progressive left, or the reactionary right. Although their ideology may differ, one thing they both share, the claim to help and fight for the People.

My grandkids, your kids, the Millenniums, the very folk that the System is failing to work for.

The Age Of Misanthropy!

These Elitist, could care less, both types.

The elitist that like to bash the populist for being foolish, and those that bash the other elitist for not catering to the populist.

The Funny thing, who ever wins your vote, it's business as usual! The Rich get richer, and the Poor get poorer.

 Oh yeah, the shrinking Middle class, they get Austerity!

It never stops, Google Wells Fargo, the CEO's get their Milion dollar bonus, and keep their hefty Salaries, while 5000 lower level $12/hour loose their jobs!

The business as usual path, is destroying the very organism it depends on!

Greed!

Even a bumble bee, has enough sense to repollinate the flower!

JMHO.

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

Even a bumble bee, has enough sense to repollinate the flower!

Allante93,

I've seen you make this statement a couple of times and for my part it begs clarity as to your point;

1) repollinate is not a word, bumblebees can pollinate and/or cross-pollinate plants,

2) bumblebees gather pollen as part of their foraging behavior and during a given foraging trip visit multiple flowers which may result in pollination or cross-pollination,

3) bumblebee behavior is a result of adaptive evolution and there is no conscious choice, effective decision-making, or presumed "sense" involved - they are simply doing what is required for the hive to survive.

joerand posted:

Allante93 posted:

Even a bumble bee, has enough sense to repollinate the flower!

Allante93,

I've seen you make this statement a couple of times and for my part it begs clarity as to your point;

1) repollinate is not a word, bumblebees can pollinate and/or cross-pollinate plants,

2) bumblebees gather pollen as part of their foraging behavior and during a given foraging trip visit multiple flowers which may result in pollination or cross-pollination,

3) bumblebee behavior is a result of adaptive evolution and there is no conscious choice, effective decision-making, or presumed "sense" involved - they are simply doing what is required for the hive to survive.

Even a bumble bee has enough sense to pollinate.

Wasn't aware of the above information.

My mistake, more than likely, I just screwed the wording. 

No hands on experience here either, just read a couple of articles, here and there, paraphrasing, quotes, etc...

Thanks!

Allante93!

Looks like we have handed control from Brussels to a couple of Ministers in Westminster.

Not even a discussion by MPs on the outcome of any potential Brexit negotiations, never mind the concept of a discussion and a Parliamentary vote as to whether we should leave in the first place - taking into account the outcome of the referendum of course.

It also appears that the main opposition to any government plans (or holding the Government to account) is coming from within the Tory Party itself, although rather meekly. Where is the opposition ? (ok, I forgot. Diane's bedroom).

Begins to make Trump v Clinton look decidedly statesman-like.

According to the interviews I heard on the radio today, there's growing momentum in parliament behind giving a vote to MPs.  Dominic Grieve is a particular proponent, and likely carries some weight as a Tory himself, and a former Attorney General.

The trouble seems to be that opponents of giving parliament a say are trying to obscure the debate by conflating different potential votes, and then rubbishing the lot by using arguments which actually apply to just one of them.  There's the issue of whether MPs should be asked to rubber stamp the triggering of article 50, then various intermediate stages, and finally whether they should be able to debate and vote upon the settlement the govt reaches with Brussels.

As I see it, the referendum arguably mandated the govt to trigger article 50.  Arguable not least because of how terrible the standard of debate and information which fed into the result was.  But whether it's arguable or not, it seems politically impossible that MPs could get to overturn the referendum result, so that vote won't happen.

But the referendum categorically did not give the govt (in the guise of couple of ministers, largely, as you say Don) a mandate to come up with and agree to whatever terms it likes, on behalf of not just the entire nation today but for decades to come.  IMO there should be some kind of requirement that the negotiations are conducted by a cross bench team, but failing that, MPs from all sides of the house must be given the chance to scrutinise and, if necessary, reject the deal the govt comes up with.

It's an interesting point to note that legally speaking there's no cast iron prohibition against stopping and then re-triggering article 50.  An extra two years, essentially.  And if need be, that should be what happens.  We might be leaving, but there's no way we should be forced into a bad deal because of an arbitrary date on a calendar which was originally thought up just to cover an eventuality that was never supposed to come about, with little or no understanding of what would actually be involved (because it had never been done before).

PS, the radio interviews I mentioned were on the PM programme on Radio 4 this afternoon - I just tried to find the right bit of the programme, but the iplayer website seems not to be playing ball at the moment.  But anyone who's curious should be able to find them if they have a look.

Let's hope the "growing momentum" (mentioned by Dave above) becomes a reality and MP's get to debate/vote. Even if that means a two year + two year exit process.

But equally, let's not forget that leaving the EU (and possibly the single market) is only part of the issue. I don't see too much effort on the negotiations with the rest of the world for trade, investment and co-operation in general. In other words, new opportunities. ( I had hoped my other thread would have provided an avalanche of great ideas to feed to the Government.)

I think such a plan will be highly dependent on Conservative MPs all getting what they want from the Brexit plan, and there is a wide variety of views there.  Remember that the government has a very small majority and Labour and SNP didn't want to leave the EU. So the government whips would need to get all Conservative MPs to stand behind this or the government could find itself confronted with motions that could attract sufficient support in the House to undo the plan.  I suspect there will be many twists and turns in this yet.  

You are right in what you say Mike. Most of the "dealing" between Conservative MPs will be done behind closed doors. Unlike Labour, they do manage to pull together as a party when absolutely necessary. They won't push too hard for what might turn out to be a devisive vote.

I'm no Labour Party supporter (*), but with no effective opposition in the Commons, I do wonder if the right wing of the Conservatives are exerting too much influence for the good of the Nation at the moment.

(*) I'm no Tory Party supporter either at the moment !

Don Atkinson posted:

I do wonder if the right wing of the Conservatives are exerting too much influence for the good of the Nation at the moment.

I think it's quite clear that they are, and that they don't really know what they're doing as regards Brexit.  They're determined to have a 'hard Brexit', and seem to be on course to ensure that's what happens.  Over the past couple of days it has increasingly looked like the markets have lost faith in the direction the current govt is going in.  Yeah there was a FTSE high this afternoon, but that was only because the pound is flailing.  Especially damning when the govt is supposed to be the party that is economically competent (regardless of whether they are or not, they're *supposed* to be, i.e. are perceived as being).  It's quite possible that it's a semi-intentional external devaluation of the currency, but it's not plausible - in the absence of anyone significant saying in advance that that would be the policy, it looks more like incompetence and/or impotence.

Maybe things will swing back around again.  But I don't currently have much of an expectation that they will.  I hope to be proved wrong.

As Andy Hamilton said on The News Quiz a few weeks ago, May's cry of 'Brexit means Brexit' was about as meaningful as 'rumboflange means rumboflange'.  There's no detail, nothing to give content to the meaning of the term.

Dave, I agree.

And I am both disillusioned and angry with them (ie politicians, all of them !)

Don, we get what we deserve.

Get involved. You must admit the Rt Hon member for Hawker Siddeley has a certain ring to it.

Chris.

Chris, to a limited extent I have got involved, and (with genuine respect) I don't agree that we ALL get what we deserve.

• I live in a constituency that voted to Remain, as did I (and as did Mrs D for whom I arranged a Proxy Vote)
• I have written several times and spoken to our MP and (unsuccessfully) tried to persaude him to force the government to hold a debate and vote re-brexit. He was sympathetic but following the Party Line.
• I have provided input to a committee who are looking at how aviation might be affected by Brexit, including leaving EASA (this would be "Rock-Hard-Brexit" make no mistake).
• I have provided input to the same committee as to the opportunities that Brexit would present to the aviation industry (believe me, I really did try hard to present real opportunities)
• I asked on this Forum for Berxit opportunities (Simon-in-Suffolk's was the only positive, albeit niche market response).

Half my family live in Canada, half in the UK. I'm seriously considering the future for all of us.

I love the UK and most of our people. I love my job, even though i'm well past retirement. I would prefer to live here and visit Canada and so would the family who also live here (they have businesses  here that would be difficult to re-establish over there).

Meanwhile I am continuing to provide advice about risks and opportunities within the UK aviation industry. despite being dismayed !

I fully appreciate that the Government need time to evaluate the best way forward and must resist pressure from the "Press" and foreign governments to be precipitated into unnecessary and potentially unwise announcements. But, for goodness sake, they must stop drifting (or sleepwalking aka the title of this thread) into oblivion !!

If we get what we deserve I will definitely have to leave the UK. I deserve better than this.

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. Talk about screwing up Brexit is one thing, but stupidly inflaming the situation in Syria is altogether unforgivable.

Don Atkinson posted:

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. Talk about screwing up Brexit is one thing, but stupidly inflaming the situation in Syria is altogether unforgivable.

For the avoidance of doubt..............when I said "get rid of (him)" I meant remove him from office. Reduce him to the back benches and expel him from the Party. Nothing more !

I might be angry and dismayed with politicians in general, but i'm not advocating anything more dramatic !

It's just as well i'm not a politician !!

Don Atkinson posted:

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. Talk about screwing up Brexit is one thing, but stupidly inflaming the situation in Syria is altogether unforgivable.

Maybe you remoaners should get together and form a new political party? How about the UK Dependence Party? You can spend the next forty years trying to get a referendum on joining the EU. Though given its current travails there may no longer be an EU to join in forty years time.

I've always been amazed at how (for example) before the referendum, the "Leavers" were dissatisfied with the way things were, but never-the-less felt entitled to express their views. However, following the referendum that whopping minority of 16m voters who wanted to remain are now expected to shut up, and let a small group of self-serving MPs do what they want without any accountability. (or at least not until the next general Election).

This sort of attitude appears to follow many changes we make in society. Same-sex marriage, imigration

ltaylor posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. Talk about screwing up Brexit is one thing, but stupidly inflaming the situation in Syria is altogether unforgivable.

Maybe you remoaners should get together and form a new political party? How about the UK Dependence Party? You can spend the next forty years trying to get a referendum on joining the EU. Though given its current travails there may no longer be an EU to join in forty years time.

I'm guessing you voted to leave. Perhaps you could also contribute to the thread that is cataloguing the opportunities that Brexit offers.

On your second point, one of my work colleagues voted to Leave, primarily because he considers the EU will fall apart and very soon (not because we are leaving but as you say, because of its current travails). He considered we will be better off getting out now, before the ship really starts to sink, so to speak. I wasn't convinced, but...............others were.