Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. Talk about screwing up Brexit is one thing, but stupidly inflaming the situation in Syria is altogether unforgivable.

Boris Johnson may not be Foreign Secretary material but his suggestion that peace doers do their protest outside the Russian Embassy was a bold and excellent suggestion.  Russia has a track record in history for committing atrocities, one of their greatest atrocities was against their own people in the most horrendous large scale, during Stalanist times, something which the most extreme anti North American protagonist cannot accuse the same crime against the USA.  Too often peace doers demonstrate against western Embassy mostly the USA Embassy while Russia quietly get away with it.  I respect Boris Johnson for coming out with his statement especially as he himself is from Russian ancestry - full marks to him.       

I'm not against peace doers protesting outside the Russian Embassy but it doesn't require the Foreign Secretary to suggest it.

He should be having discussions with the Russian Ambassador and the Russian Foreign Secretary.

Don Atkinson posted:

I'm not against peace doers protesting outside the Russian Embassy but it doesn't require the Foreign Secretary to suggest it.

He should be having discussions with the Russian Ambassador and the Russian Foreign Secretary.

That is the normal course (and most probably frustrating) but his statement was refreshing and I think he is the first person in history to suggest it (unless someone corrects me).

Don Atkinson posted:

Chris, to a limited extent I have got involved, and (with genuine respect) I don't agree that we ALL get what we deserve.

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Sorry Don, I awoke in a flippant and nihilistic mood.

C.

Don Atkinson posted:

...........and the sooner we get rid of that pathetic buffoon called Johnson, purporting to be our Foreign Secretary, the better. 

Whatever Boris Johnson is, I don't think buffoon is anything more than a carefully crafted persona. Under the bluster he is a very intelligent, calculating man who could be very dangerous or could be a force for improving the country.

Hi Eloise,

I sort off agree with you. But a buffoon, whether a carefully crafted persona or the real McCoy, isn't the ideal Foreign Secretary, at least not IMHO. Not all foreigners understand or appreciate our British sense of humour !

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Chris, to a limited extent I have got involved, and (with genuine respect) I don't agree that we ALL get what we deserve.

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.....

Sorry Don, I awoke in a flippant and nihilistic mood.

C.

Join the club Chris,  join the club. and keep posting

Don Atkinson posted:

I sort off agree with you. But a buffoon, whether a carefully crafted persona or the real McCoy, isn't the ideal Foreign Secretary, at least not IMHO. Not all foreigners understand or appreciate our British sense of humour !

Very true... I just wish others (lead by the media) wouldn't fall for and promote his loveable uncle clown routine.

Re Conduct of the US and massacring their own people - just cast your mind back to the treatment of the Native Americans, the mass movement from their own lands to glorified concentration camps. The incarceration of the young Native Americans in the "Indian Schools" where the kids were taught to be second class citizens serving the white men. The kids being moved miles from their tribal lands and forced to only speak English.

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I sort off agree with you. But a buffoon, whether a carefully crafted persona or the real McCoy, isn't the ideal Foreign Secretary, at least not IMHO. Not all foreigners understand or appreciate our British sense of humour !

Very true... I just wish others (lead by the media) wouldn't fall for and promote his loveable uncle clown routine.

Is he so bad? I think he's adds to the gaeity of the nation.

Unrelatedly, I'll be interested to see what happens to Gina Miller's Brexit challenge in the High Court today.

C.

oo often peace doers demonstrate against western Embassy mostly the USA Embassy while Russia quietly get away with it.  I respect Boris Johnson for coming out with his statement especially as he himself is from Russian ancestry - full marks to him.       

Maybe that's because the USA has been engaging in open and blatant regime change and illegal war since the 1970s (Chile anyone?), and is currently placing the world on the precipice of a major war, with an incompetent, blood-drenched harridan backed by all the wrong big neocon players, and a know-nothing dimwit who couldn't find his @ss with 2 hands and a flashlight, poised to take charge...

Assad was a bastard for years, but only became a "problem" when he signed the wrong pipeline deal - we wanted him to sign the one that would cut Russia out of the gas to Europe business. When he did the other pipeline, he "had to go." It has NOTHING to do with human rights...that's all obfuscation.

Pretty much everything the US does in foreign policy is directed at undermining Russia, because they are the major block in the US controlling the entire planet. (Which make no mistake, IS the goal here...our European vassals should know that better than anyone.)Then China will be in focus next.

China might even present a bigger problem, but their economy is too essential to the big picture right now (which is why their currency was admitted to the SDR basket on 30 September), whereas Russia's economy is only 1/8 of the USA, and the US presently doesn't have much trade with them. (But they are more than willing to play economic poker against Russia using EU chips...but that's what friends are for.)

Russia was fine under the drunk Yeltsin who let the major multinationals pillage the country and led to the formation of the oligarchs (as well as the default of the country), but when someone took over who said "no" (and BTW, he made the oligarchs start paying taxes too) well that was just unacceptable.

Russia is in Syria at the request of the government that holds the seat at the UN, which whether we like it or not makes it the "legitimate" government in Syria. The US is funding & arming terrorists in an effort to overthrow a standing government, which is illegal under any notion of international law.

But when you have the biggest wallet and the most guns, laws don't matter.

Derek Wright posted:

Re Conduct of the US and massacring their own people - just cast your mind back to the treatment of the Native Americans, the mass movement from their own lands to glorified concentration camps. The incarceration of the young Native Americans in the "Indian Schools" where the kids were taught to be second class citizens serving the white men. The kids being moved miles from their tribal lands and forced to only speak English.

Always delightful to receive a lecture on the treatment of native peoples from a descendent of the enlightened British Empire.

What we did makes us sensitive to the faults of others. And a large proportion of the soldiers killing the Native Americans were Europeans.

Clay Bingham posted:

Derek Wright posted:

Re Conduct of the US and massacring their own people - just cast your mind back to the treatment of the Native Americans, the mass movement from their own lands to glorified concentration camps. The incarceration of the young Native Americans in the "Indian Schools" where the kids were taught to be second class citizens serving the white men. The kids being moved miles from their tribal lands and forced to only speak English.

Always delightful to receive a lecture on the treatment of native peoples from a descendent of the enlightened British Empire.

The fact that many of our former colonies voluntarily choose to remain linked to the UK via the Commonwealth shows what the former subjects thought of Empire. 

TMP

A simplistic statement of history not dissimilar to that of our friend  Derek. Simplistic statements aside I think you both will agree that our mutual histories with native peoples involve much for us to be ashamed even given our historically more recent efforts to do better. That was the point of my original response to Derek.

Well, sort of, Clay.

Britain realised centuries ago that our conduct was poor, and we subsequently led the world in eg. emancipation, abolition of slavery, etc. 

I cannot think of a single people that the British Empire marginalised in the way that the US marginalised Native Americans. The approach we took was similar to that of the Romans - assimilate the people, let them get on with their daily lives but with a titular Head of State - the Empress - based in England. 

We subsequently returned the lands entirely to the original "owners" many of whom, as mentioned, chose to retain links to Great Britain via voluntary membership of the Commonwealth. 

There are no "Native American" States as far as I can tell. 

A rather soft focus appraisal of the suffering and misery caused by The British Empire, which we seem so proud of yet should be profoundly ashamed of. But this in no way excuses America for what it did to its indigenous population, which was a template for the Nazi holocaust. A lot of shit has been done which can’t be taken back. Not by just the British, not just the Americans, although they are both rather good at it. Why not face up to it and acknowledge it instead of denying it and trying to duck behind the sins of others?

The possible second referendum on Scottish independence has the potential to shake things up a bit. Nicola Sturgeon did a great interview on the Today Programme this morning and seems the nearest thing we have to an effective opposion. Now that the realisation is drawing that EU membership and the single market are inextricably linked things are getting interesting. I read something the other day that leaving the market sound cost the UK £66bn a year - yet the Treasury seems to be excluded from negotiations. Will immigration really beat economics?

HH, can you remember roughly what time the Today interview was? I fancy checking it out on iPlayer, but don't want to sit through the whole 3 hours to find it.

Harry posted:

A rather soft focus appraisal of the suffering and misery caused by The British Empire, which we seem so proud of yet should be profoundly ashamed of. But this in no way excuses America for what it did to its indigenous population, which was a template for the Nazi holocaust. A lot of shit has been done which can’t be taken back. Not by just the British, not just the Americans, although they are both rather good at it. Why not face up to it and acknowledge it instead of denying it and trying to duck behind the sins of others?

I'm not denying anything, nor am I ducking  behind the sins of others.

I'm just pointing out that while it may be very fashionable to wear sackcloth and ashes over our Colonial past, the fact that most of our former Colonies choose to be members of the Commonwealth speaks volumes as to how they view it. 

We gave independence to every single colony. They rule their lands themselves. The UK doesn't. 

There is no Native American State that I'm aware of. Native Americans rule nothing. 

Tarquin Maynard-Portly posted:

Harry posted:

A rather soft focus appraisal of the suffering and misery caused by The British Empire, which we seem so proud of yet should be profoundly ashamed of. But this in no way excuses America for what it did to its indigenous population, which was a template for the Nazi holocaust. A lot of shit has been done which can’t be taken back. Not by just the British, not just the Americans, although they are both rather good at it. Why not face up to it and acknowledge it instead of denying it and trying to duck behind the sins of others?

I'm not denying anything, nor am I ducking  behind the sins of others.

 

Not you Mike. Your take on it was a good steer for a point I wanted to direct generally. We're all covered in shit we might as well be honest about it. Or something like that.

Dave***t posted:

HH, can you remember roughly what time the Today interview was? I fancy checking it out on iPlayer, but don't want to sit through the whole 3 hours to find it.

Just after 8, probably about 10 past. 

Cheers.  As it turns out, it was at exactly ten past, so props for the accuracy

It was a good interview, I thought.  A reasonable position, clearly stated, and defusing the aggressive spin the interviewer suggested quite effectively.  (As an aside, I think the aggressive spin was perfectly appropriate for the interviewer to use, given that that's just how it'd immediately be reported elsewhere).  So Scotland definitely not sleep walking anywhere.

Throws the shower of, er, confusion in Westminster into ever sharper relief.  Yeah, I think there's a good chance that at the current rate, immigration will trump the economy.  Which wasn't even what the result of the referendum reflected.  Fingers crossed that the direction changes a bit.

Tarquin Maynard-Portly posted:

Harry posted:

A rather soft focus appraisal of the suffering and misery caused by The British Empire, which we seem so proud of yet should be profoundly ashamed of. But this in no way excuses America for what it did to its indigenous population, which was a template for the Nazi holocaust. A lot of shit has been done which can’t be taken back. Not by just the British, not just the Americans, although they are both rather good at it. Why not face up to it and acknowledge it instead of denying it and trying to duck behind the sins of others?

I'm not denying anything, nor am I ducking  behind the sins of others.

I'm just pointing out that while it may be very fashionable to wear sackcloth and ashes over our Colonial past, the fact that most of our former Colonies choose to be members of the Commonwealth speaks volumes as to how they view it. 

We gave independence to every single colony. They rule their lands themselves. The UK doesn't. 

There is no Native American State that I'm aware of. Native Americans rule nothing. 

You claim you don't deny  but you minimize which is just another side of the same coin. You go on to make claims that, if not downright silly, are certainly simplistic as I noted earlier. Please do a search on any of the following.

1.Boer concentration camps.

2.Aden torture centers

3. Chinese resettlement in Malaya

4. Indian famine of 1943

5. Partition of India

6. Amritsar Massacre

7. Mau Mau uprising

The above is a very incomplete list from the 20th century. The 18th and 19th centuries have additional examples of your colonial citizen's love for their British rulers.

My whole point in all this is that perhaps you and Derek should take a deep breath and be a bit less quick to condemn others. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to know what you're talking about.

Clay Bingham posted:

Tarquin Maynard-Portly posted:

Harry posted:

A rather soft focus appraisal of the suffering and misery caused by The British Empire, which we seem so proud of yet should be profoundly ashamed of. But this in no way excuses America for what it did to its indigenous population, which was a template for the Nazi holocaust. A lot of shit has been done which can’t be taken back. Not by just the British, not just the Americans, although they are both rather good at it. Why not face up to it and acknowledge it instead of denying it and trying to duck behind the sins of others?

I'm not denying anything, nor am I ducking  behind the sins of others.

I'm just pointing out that while it may be very fashionable to wear sackcloth and ashes over our Colonial past, the fact that most of our former Colonies choose to be members of the Commonwealth speaks volumes as to how they view it. 

We gave independence to every single colony. They rule their lands themselves. The UK doesn't. 

There is no Native American State that I'm aware of. Native Americans rule nothing. 

You claim you don't deny  but you minimize which is just another side of the same coin. You go on to make claims that, if not downright silly, are certainly simplistic as I noted earlier. Please do a search on any of the following.

1.Boer concentration camps.

2.Aden torture centers

3. Chinese resettlement in Malaya

4. Indian famine of 1943

5. Partition of India

6. Amritsar Massacre

7. Mau Mau uprising

The above is a very incomplete list from the 20th century. The 18th and 19th centuries have additional examples of your colonial citizen's love for their British rulers.

My whole point in all this is that perhaps you and Derek should take a deep breath and be a bit less quick to condemn others. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to know what you're talking about.

Bury my heart at Wounded Knee.