Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Chico posted:

No. EU as it is will collapse anyway. in the end there will be no room for self entiteld leaders. after we trialed Verhofstad, Juncker and the lot at Den Haag we will build up again.. and i hope with our good friends and inspiration the British on board.

Chico, I agree with your summary above. I have always considered the UK input to the EU, (even leaving finance aside) was with the best interest of the EU in mind. The UK input was aimed at moderation, practicallity and fairness.

I have witnessed and been involved in the development of JAA (Joint Aviation Authourity) and subsequently EASA (European Aviation Safety Agnecy) over the past 20 years. JAA worked reasonably well as a self-governing, co-operation of Nation States, all-be-it heavily guided by the UK. EASA has been a nighmare, administered by a bloody-minded Eurocrat, moderated by the UK's CAA (Civil Aviation Authority). Without the UK's input, which was resisted every patheic step of the way by the Eurocrats, we would have an unworkable, draconian, one-size-fits all "Safety System" in which the "safety" element would have been lost in the microscopic bable of confusing "Directives" that the EU produce.

The UK is the most effective producer of moderate, sensible Rules and associated Acceptable Means of Compliance in EASA and, I suspect, many, many other aspects of EU enterprise.

Far from dragging our heels, we are pragmatically pro-active.

Following the release of details that "Nissan was convinced to stay in the UK with a promise of no tariffs or extra bureaucratic burdens on the car industry after Brexit" ... I hope Naim are banding together with Linn and Meridian, Rega and Chord (et al) to push for similar assurances for the Audio Industry.

An astonishing aftermath of the BREXIT vote result that seems to be going almost unnoticed is the way the Tory Party has seized upon it's jaundiced opportunity to further it's ugly cause. They've clearly had their night of the long knives replacing the old Tory administration with a new right wing cabinet akin with Black Adder's [episode one] bunch of bastards, and the putting of an extremely bossy woman in charge; Maggie May Thatcher the 2nd to dictate the new world order Tory policy.

It was only last year we had a General Election of which the Tory Party very narrowly won outright, however the milder [albeit still right wing] Cameron & Osborne mandates and polices that people actually voted for now lie ripped up and thrown in the dustbins around the back of no.10. 

Perhaps in an attempt to throw us off the scent, Dictator May has indicated the future prospect of damming most children with a guaranteed lower education than that of wealthier & more privileged kids who may aspire to Gramma Schools. Also, an escapee of the old admin, Jeremy Hunt, has been reappointed to continue his blinkered campaign to ruin and impose further privatisations of the NHS while May fiddles the NHS funding figures with a big fictitious amount in an dodgy attempt to convince the dimwitted she's doing a jolly good thing.

BREXIT means BREXIT  whatever it means, but we are not allowed to know.  [Bigoted Right Extreme Xenophobic Idiot Tories?]  ...but whatever it means it won't be something discussed openly in parliament, let alone voted for in the house of commons by MPs who have been legitimately elected. The details of BREXIT remain Top Secret, and only for the discretion of the new World Order Tory Party High Command who will dictate the terms, and apparently they have an weird old ancient blue blooded Royal order to confirm a very strange and rather fascist looking right to make decisions without the need of parliament!

Obviously, the most serious victim of the Brexit vote seems to be the acute malfunction of Democracy in the UK, and the formation of the new BREXITORY PARTY.

The whole thing is a complete and utter sham.

Debs

Eloise posted:

Following the release of details that "Nissan was convinced to stay in the UK with a promise of no tariffs or extra bureaucratic burdens on the car industry after Brexit" ... I hope Naim are banding together with Linn and Meridian, Rega and Chord (et al) to push for similar assurances for the Audio Industry.

Possible and this would be the same situation for every type of industry not just Audio... the handbag industry, strawberry industry but also the big-money movers like Aerospace, defence/ military tech which are larger scale.  More likely that the focus will be on financial services in London with the passporting status.  The term Brexit is about to be included in the Collins dictionary so if you're ever stuck in knowing what it means, go grab a copy from your local book retailer.  For anyone interested in the possibility of a The Smiths reunion, Johnny Marr is reported to not be keen for this since distancing himself from the views of Morrissey on the Brexit result being magnificent.  That could have been an awkward discussion between them both, listening to this charming man.. to which the other replies, yeah, bigmouth strikes again.  Well, we are heading for the Brexit soon.  How soon is now.. you may be asking?

Apparently it has been decided in court this morning that the govt cannot trigger A50 without a vote in parliament.

One stage of appeal remains, and I believe the supreme court are on standby to hear the govt's inevitable appeal in early December.

One in the eye for some, though the final result could go either way.

Disposable hero posted:

The term Brexit is about to be included in the Collins dictionary so if you're ever stuck in knowing what it means, go grab a copy from your local book retailer. 

That's going to be useful ... considering there are at least 650 people who don't know exactly what it means!

BREXIT

Verb

1. BREXIT

Theresa May "BREXIT means BREXIT"

Bananahead posted:

BREXIT

Verb

1. BREXIT

Theresa May "BREXIT means BREXIT"

 

You missed a bit ...

Quote: Theresa May "BREXIT means BREXIT"*

* see recursion.

Further to the above, the British diplomat who headed the group which wrote the relevant legislation was reported this morning as stating that the triggering of A50 is not irrevocable.

Should the issue arise, I'm sure it will be determined in various courts, rather than by his say so. But in a matter of interpreting the law, and the spirit of the law, his words may carry some weight.

Allante93 posted:

MDS posted:

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

I fear for the future.

Fear for the future often seems the role of the elder generation, but we should have done something right in raising our offspring that provides a positive outlook. I look at my kids (both in their early 20's) and I see lots of potential good for the world.

I share that sentiment, Joe. 

I feel you gentleman, and yes Winky, this crisis isn't unique.  

Beit, Australia, Europe, Canada, or the US, a movement is in the making.

Populism, beit, the progressive left, or the reactionary right. Although their ideology may differ, one thing they both share, they claim to help and fight for the People.

My grandkids, your kids, the Millenniums, the very folk that the System is failing to work for.

The Age Of Misanthropy!

These Elitist, could care less, both types.

The elitist that like to bash the populist for being foolish, and those that bash the other elitist for not catering to the populist.

The Funny thing, who ever wins your vote, it's business as usual! The Rich get richer, and the Poor get poorer.

 Oh yeah, the shrinking Middle class, they get Austerity!

It never stops, Google Wells Fargo, the CEO's get their Milion dollar bonus, and keep their hefty Salaries, while 5000 lower level $12/hour loose their jobs!

The business as usual path, is destroying the very organism it depends on!

Greed!

Even a bumble bee, has enough sense to pollinate the flower!

JMHO.

Allante93!

 

Hot off the press:

"Subject:Britain's plans for leaving the European, Britain's plans for leaving the European Union have come screeching to a halt"

Don't know much about the politics across the pond, but I would imagine the Ex prime minister of Greece, might know a bit.

Yanis Varoufakis:

""The Brexit is a bit like Hotel California, you can check out anytime, but you can't leave!"

I hope it works out for the common man, as far as jobs, medical care, safety, and the future for your kids!

Good Luck!

Allante93!

Hi Dave,

Further to your posting on the appeal process following today's decision, I think that there are two levels of appeal. The first is to the UK Supreme Court, the second level would be to the European Court!

Oh the irony?

Allante, Varoufakis was the Greek finance minister, not the prime minister. The prime minister capitulated to the demands of the European powers that be in accepting Varoufakis' (enforced) resignation.

Shuggy, I can't see how it could work that way in this instance - it's a constitutional matter for the UK, and so couldn't (AFAIK) be determined by the EU. It'd be a bit like the doctor examining himself in order to treat the patient otherwise (tenuous metaphor, but makes vague sense to me!). If, on the other hand, the UK govt went ahead and one or more citizens/subjects brought a case that their human rights were thereby infringed (not necessarily likely or possible, but just for eg) then *that* could end up in the European court.

Seemingly we are no longer sleep walking out of Europe but now crawling out way out.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Seemingly we are no longer sleep walking out of Europe but now crawling out way out.

You may be right but I'm still not sure we've got our eyes open. Sleep crawling perhaps?

Dave***t posted:

Allante, Varoufakis was the Greek finance minister, not the prime minister. The prime minister capitulated to the demands of the European powers that be in accepting Varoufakis' (enforced) resignation.

Shuggy, I can't see how it could work that way in this instance - it's a constitutional matter for the UK, and so couldn't (AFAIK) be determined by the EU. It'd be a bit like the doctor examining himself in order to treat the patient otherwise (tenuous metaphor, but makes vague sense to me!). If, on the other hand, the UK govt went ahead and one or more citizens/subjects brought a case that their human rights were thereby infringed (not necessarily likely or possible, but just for eg) then *that* could end up in the European court.

@ Dave, you see I don't know much about politics across the pond, but at least you know the guy.

The main point Dave, I hope everything works out for the common man!

Divided we fall, United we stand. 

And Dave that's a Global movement around the World, that's fueled by greed!

And in the end, the common man that was pro Brexit, is going to be asked to pay more.

Austerity!

Allante93!

Oh, I forgot, thanks Dave for the Correction! 

Nothing like information: 

Over here it's business as usual General Elections. 

Trump vs Hilary 

Rep vs Dem

Donald Trump, a Reactionary right, was a protest vote against his own party, that can't stand him! 

And Hilary, represents the Status quo, Deep State Politics, that people are tired off.

Initially Bernie Sanders supported Hilary, went out campaigning with her, Now the last week He abandons her!  They must have really lined his pockets.

Bernie Sanders ran against Hillary and lost by a close margin. He was  a progressive left, protest vote against Democratic Party.

It should be a land slide, but I suspect it to be close, very polarized here in the States!

And the funny thing after the election things will go back to normal, the poor will remain poor and the rich will get richer, These guys are literally dumping millions in the Campaign during the last week.

Sheldon Adelson, a gaming Tycoon just contributed another $25 million to Donalds Campaign the last week! That's right 50 Million, and you guys see what a Buffoon the Donald is. 

Well Good Luck over There!

Allante93!

Today's ruling by the High Court 

shuggy posted:

Hi Dave,

Further to your posting on the appeal process following today's decision, I think that there are two levels of appeal. The first is to the UK Supreme Court, the second level would be to the European Court!

 

Only one: the Supreme Court. The question is about UK law, not EU law.

While the Supreme Court is above the High Court, the judges who gave the ruling today are very senior and included the Lord Chief Justice. The findings were also very clear.  This suggests to me that the chances of the Supreme Court overturning the High Court's decision are not good.

I thought some of the ministerial statements today rather odd.  As a layman, I thought what the High Court was essentially saying was that only parliament can change an Act of Parliament (in this instance the European Coummunities Act).  I wouldn't have thought that Parliament passing a bill to hold a referendum was remotely equivalent. 

Won't make much difference IMHO what the Courts Say. Parliamentary members have more or less indicated they will support a motion to trigger A50. It was the will of the people and they are simply going to implement it.

If this is the case, I am deeply saddened. I thought our MPs had more responsibility. They should seek advice, then act in the best interest of the Nation, taking into account the fact that we voted to leave by a (very) small majority.

I would hope they could see the economic benefits of Remaining far outweighed the immigration "benefit" of Leaving and any intangible benefits of free trade with the rest of the world. But i'm not banking on it !

Considering the House of Commons as a whole, Don, I'm sure MPs do see it as you describe above, in your last para. But, by a small margin, the majority of Brits don't.

Which, I think, is sort of what you are saying.

C.

Allante93 posted:

 

Is the Brexit really off?

 

Smells like it.

Christopher_M posted:

Considering the House of Commons as a whole, Don, I'm sure MPs do see it as you describe above, in your last para. But, by a small margin, the majority of Brits don't.

Which, I think, is sort of what you are saying.

C.

At the moment Chris, I don't see any real exposition of the perceived benefits from either side for Remaining or Leaving. That is what I find "disappointing".

All I see is the Leaving side screaming that they WON! and we must leave. End of matter.

I also find it  deeply disturbing that the Leavers (and the newspapers) claim that "the British Public" voted to leave and Parliament/Judges/Nobody can be allowed to challenge that. I am a member of "the British Public" and I didn't vote to Leave and about 50 million other members of "the British Public" didn't vote to Leave either. A small majority of those who actually voted, voted to Leave.

The whole thing now revolves around a legal dispute about whether the PM can trigger A50 without consulting Parliament. or whether an Act of Parliament is required first. Whether the  current MPs would approve an Act is unclear. Many Remain MPs seem to put "democracy" ahead of any need for an Act to Leave. Whilst quite a few Leave MPs seem to think the PM should seek an Act before invoking A50. I doubt if the outcome of the Supreme Court verdict can be predicted nor the subsequent Parliamentary Act if the Supreme Court endorses the current status.

naim_nymph posted:

Allante93 posted:

 

Is the Brexit really off?

 

Smells like it.

From my point of view it would be nice if that were the case. Somehow, I think I am going to be disappointed.

But I did like your pun !

Today I have drafted my letter to my MP, demanding that when Parliament debates the Act required to enable the PM to trigger A50, that he votes AGAINST such an Act.

On the basis that in West Berkshire, in which he is one of our elected representatives, the majority of those who voted in the referendum voted to Remain.