Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

I can't quite reconcile May's speach with Starmer's (shadow Brexit secretary) response that "May has effectively ruled out hard Brexit."

Mays speach sounds like they are working towards a very hard Brexit to me,

My personal feelings at the moment are probably summed up as frustration, anger and despair.

As for "unity", I feel as if I am being asked to abandon morality and join some fascist or even nazi party.

I happened to hear Farage, on the BBC radio at about 13:45 (not sure which programme, I was driving) but when asked to confirm that leaving the Single Market would make us all economically poorer, simply ignored the question and turned on Nick Clegg as a deluded looser !

Seeing Farage and Gove back in the limelight doesn't fill me with hope for a better future.

To YNYA2505 and all other 'agnostics' or sufferers from apathy out there:

The position that Theresa May has outlined today points very much towards a 'Hard' Brexit with the UK (at least the word 'United' apllies for the time being) focus being on a control of immigration and free movement which inevitably means coming out of the European 'single market' and all that that entails. Not only that, but May also appears to have an aspiration to come out of the Customs Union. OK this is clarity of sorts, even if she and her Government seem to have absolutely no concept of how they will achieve this without catastrophic economic and social consequences.

Are you equally agnostic and unconcerned about the prospect of the United Kingdom falling apart? There is now a very good chance that Scotland will begin to put in place measures to implement a second vote on Independence, and it is very possible that this time there will be a different outcome. Like many others, I will face a dilemma. I voted against independence last time round. I am very unsure about how I will vote next time round. Maybe, you just don't care, or maybe you quite like the idea of getting rid of those irritating and troublesome Scottish neighbours. That will certainly be the position adopted by Nigel Farage and his cronies, and I suspect also by not a few others in England.

However, what rarely seems to be discussed, and is almost entirely glossed over, is how on earth Theresa May will be able to implement a border control system (and a strict border control system there will need to be if her policies are to be implemented successfully) that takes account of the hugely difficult position of the border between Northern Ireland and Eire. No matter how much you may dislike or criticize Tony Blair, one thing that he did manage to achieve was a 'peace' between the warring factions in the Irish divide. Anyone who has travelled between Northern Ireland and Eire in recent years will be aware of the benefits that free travel brings to visitors and especially to locals, many of whom live on one side of the 'border' but work on the other. Equally, anyone who is old enough will remember just how horrendous the situation in Northern Ireland was prior to the peace process and the breaking down of borders.

It is absolutely imperative, and in everyone's interest, that there should be no question of re-establishing border controls between Northern Ireland and its southern neighbour. What is really frightening to me, is that I have not yet heard a single comment about this from the Brexit side, nor any proposal from the Brexit side about how they are going to resolve this next to impossible dilemma that they appear to have painted themselves into with their increasingly hard-line dogma. Certainly no 'clarity' here.

Does anyone disagree with my assertion that the Northern Ireland situation is of great concern, and do you have a solution? Surely, this is not a topic about which you can be agnostic or apathetic.         

Hmack posted:

To YNYA2505 and all other 'agnostics' or sufferers from apathy out there:

However, what rarely seems to be discussed, and is almost entirely glossed over, is how on earth Theresa May will be able to implement a border control system (and a strict border control system there will need to be if her policies are to be implemented successfully) that takes account of the hugely difficult position of the border between Northern Ireland and Eire. No matter how much you may dislike or criticize Tony Blair, one thing that he did manage to achieve was a 'peace' between the warring factions in the Irish divide. Anyone who has travelled between Northern Ireland and Eire in recent years will be aware of the benefits that free travel brings to visitors and especially to locals, many of whom live on one side of the 'border' but work on the other. Equally, anyone who is old enough will remember just how horrendous the situation in Northern Ireland was prior to the peace process and the breaking down of borders.

It is absolutely imperative, and in everyone's interest, that there should be no question of re-establishing border controls between Northern Ireland and its southern neighbour. What is really frightening to me, is that I have not yet heard a single comment about this from the Brexit side, nor any proposal from the Brexit side about how they are going to resolve this next to impossible dilemma that they appear to have painted themselves into with their increasingly hard-line dogma. Certainly no 'clarity' here.

Does anyone disagree with my assertion that the Northern Ireland situation is of great concern, and do you have a solution? Surely, this is not a topic about which you can be agnostic or apathetic.         

Hmack posted:

To YNYA2505 and all other 'agnostics' or sufferers from apathy out there:

Are you equally agnostic and unconcerned about the prospect of the United Kingdom falling apart? There is now a very good chance that Scotland will begin to put in place measures to implement a second vote on Independence, and it is very possible that this time there will be a different outcome. Like many others, I will face a dilemma. I voted against independence last time round. I am very unsure about how I will vote next time round. Maybe, you just don't care, or maybe you quite like the idea of getting rid of those irritating and troublesome Scottish neighbours. That will certainly be the position adopted by Nigel Farage and his cronies, and I suspect also by not a few others in England.    

Hmack. Please don't vote for Scottish Independence. Some of us still love you !

However, if there is another woman in UK politics more dangerous than TM it's that "Poison Dwarf".

I'm sure she will hold a referendum on Scottish Independence and she will be supported by Alex Salmond. They have their own agenda and IMHO it isn't necessarily an agenda that is in the best interests of the Scottish people. I think it is simple-minded, single-issue "Leave and to hell with the consequences" again (as I noted in my post above regarding TM). However, I can see a number of Scottish people being persuaded that Scotland-in-Europe will be better off than Scotland-in-an-Independent-UK. Such a change would weaken all four Home Nations both economically and socially. OTOH, I’m sure an independent Scotland would be admitted into the EU sooner than Turkey - Junckers would just love that, if only to spite TM !

I for one, on the basis of pure sentiment would be devastated if Scotland was to leave the UK. I have many Scottish friends with whom I have worked in very, very difficult circumstances around the globe. My father before me spent most of the last world war in Northern India along with a Scotsman from Motherwell, leading a Company of Indian Soldiers. Our subsequent families have been life-long friends. My wife's father served with the Argyle & Southern Highlanders during that war. The connection list is endless and we continue to meet so many Scottish people working in England - would they have to return to Scotland (or move to Poland- its being part of the EU ) ?

You might not want Nuclear submarines and the associated economic benefits of Faslane, but the scientific and  industrial belt of Glasgow/Edinburgh is a UK asset that would be sorely missed south of the border.

On this issue, my only hope would be that TM stands up to NS and simply refuses to accept a "Leave the UK” vote. Sadly, I don't see any prospect of those two women being able to reach any sort of agreement.

Don Atkinson posted:

My personal feelings at the moment are probably summed up as frustration, anger and despair.

As for "unity", I feel as if I am being asked to abandon morality and join some fascist or even nazi party.

I happened to hear Farage, on the BBC radio at about 13:45 (not sure which programme, I was driving) but when asked to confirm that leaving the Single Market would make us all economically poorer, simply ignored the question and turned on Nick Clegg as a deluded looser !

Seeing Farage and Gove back in the limelight doesn't fill me with hope for a better future.

There is no such thing as hard Brexit or soft Brexit. Leaving the EU is Brexit. Soft and hard Brexit is an invention by losers (it is loser by the way, not looser) like Clegg and that half-wit Farron, They want to pretend that there is an alternative, which basically amounts to staying in the EU. Brussels has made it abundantly clear that freedom of movement is tied in with membership of the Customs Union. This was spelled out repeatedly prior to the vote and this is what the majority of us voted for. I get that you dont like that, but you are going to have to suck it up. You had nearly all the media on your side and most of the MPs and you still lost. You could always form your own UK Dependance Party and campaign to join the EU.

Don Atkinson posted:

"However, if there is another woman in UK politics more dangerous than TM it's that "Poison Dwarf".

I'm sure she will hold a referendum on Scottish Independence and she will be supported by Alex Salmond. They have their own agenda and IMHO it isn't necessarily an agenda that is in the best interests of the Scottish people"

Don, we are obviously both on the same side when it comes to BREXIT, and the appalling thought of May, Gove, Redwood (now there is a person I dislike and distrust almost more than I distrust Nigel Farage) and IDS being responsible for negotiating Britain's exit from the EU.

However, this is where we may come to blows (figuratively speaking). I am not a Scottish Nationalist, but I view Nicola Sturgeon as being a pillar of respectability and honour by comparison with the likes of TM, Boris, Nigel and the rest. Of course she will argue for a second Independence referendum, and of course she will be supported by Alex Salmond, who is after all a former leader of, and still a member of the SNP. Now Alex Salmond is very different. Extremely intelligent and an absolutely fantastic debater, but far too antagonistic and confrontational for my tastes.

The labelling of Nicola Sturgeon as "that 'Poison Dwarf'" isn't going to go down well in Scotland at all. She is pretty uniformly respected in Scotland by people on all sides of the Independence debate, and If the right wing press adopt this name-calling approach, then this may be the thing that tips the scale in Scotland and persuades Scots to vote for Independence.   

I know a few Scotts in Aberdeenshire that have referred to NS as the poison dwarf...they also voted a certain way in a UK referrundem held back in June that was different, I assume, from  NS. As ever, in all parts of the UK there is a divergence of views despite what some politicians like to say, and in my experience the Scotts views seem to be more polarised than many... but what do I know as a humble Englishman.

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

 

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...................................

Obviously, a reply with one aim in mind.

That is, to infuriate, irritate or ridicule the 48% or so of those who take part in this thread (if Naim owners are representative of the general public in this country) and who voted to remain. This seems to be a fairly typical response from some (thankfully not many) of the BREXIT supporters, who appear to be more interested in administering the odd cutting barb here and there, than in what BREXIT in its very many potential forms can mean. Very much the tack taken by Nigel Farage and his cohorts, and now 'brilliantly' refined by Donald Trump and his team in the States. Is this the way that you would like politics and political campaigning to go? We all know about bad losers, but do you not dislike bad winners just a little bit more?

I would have put down your post as the response of a political illiterate, who simply doesn't give a damn, had I not read one of your earlier posts:

"This is simply a divorce - and divorces come with a lot of emotion, trauma and a degree of adverse economic side-effect. The choice is one of continuing to live with somebody that makes you miserable or suffer the short/medium pains of a divorce in the hope that a better and more enjoyable life will eventually materialise. Given that we have decided to divorce, we should just get on it and stop dragging out the misery. The sun will still rise ...

Personally, I am agnostic about the whole thing, except that it is time we stopped talking and started doing. It is now a boring subject fit only for the media and chattering classes ..."

You are obviously neither illiterate nor completely politically illiterate, and you say that you are agnostic about the whole thing. Why is it then, that you appear to have no interest nor concern whatsoever about what actually happens during the BREXIT process, about the approach and policy decisions that the opportunistic group of people now in charge of our Government take or indeed what happens to those in our country who might be hugely adversely impacted by the approach, negotiating position and policy decisions that May appears to feel mandated to take on her own on behalf of the entire nation? Should they remain silent? Do they not deserve to have a say?

Are you truly just bored by the whole thing, in which case I would argue that you may indeed be politically illiterate, or do you simply blindly trust Theresa May and her team to do what is best for our country as a whole, or possibly, do you just not give a damn about what the 'losers' in this referendum feel so strongly about? Do you really think that Theresa May's approach is going to bring back the 'Unity' in the UK that she claims to strive for? Perhaps you genuinely feel that this was a victory or the common man in this country, and that those of us who voted to remain and are concerned by the future of our country are just the 'Liberal Elite' who needed to be brought down to earth.

You claim to be agnostic about the whole thing, and you may not have voted to leave; you may not have even voted in the referendum at all. However, are you not just a little concerned about the way that politics appears to be headed (in the UK and US at least), with the key campaigners in both campaigns, Nigel Farage in the UK referendum and Donald Trump in the US election, prepared to do whatever it takes to win the day. Those two players (and now friends and political allies) have adopted the stance that it really doesn't matter what they say or do, how blatant the lies they tell as long as their approach stirs up the worst in their supporters and garners support in its basest form to their cause. The really frightening thing (to those of us who are not completely socially agnostic at least)  is that this approach has been frighteningly effective, and has resulted in victory for what most pundits would have expected to be lost causes. It is pretty obvious to me that this approach to politics and political campaigning will now become the norm for extremists and mavericks (that really is too kind a word) such as Trump and Farage in the future.

Are you, and some of the supporters of BREXIT, not just a little concerned by this? Are you also agnostic about the result of the general election in the States and the effect that this might have on NATO, Europe and International Relations as a whole? Can there be anyone in the UK (apart from Nigel Farage) who delights in Donald Trump's success? Unfortunately, I'm sure there are quite a few.  

YNWA250505, I am anticipating the obvious response from you. Please disappoint me.         

    

Somebody's got too much time on their hands today. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I know a few Scotts in Aberdeenshire that have referred to NS as the poison dwarf...they also voted a certain way in a UK referrundem held back in June that was different, I assume, from  NS.

Really? I find that so difficult to believe. A few Scots - mmmmm!

I too voted in that same 'certain way' that opposed NS's Independence aspirations. However, the difference between that referendum and the recent Brexit referendum was that most people (obviously not all, as you have observed) on both sides of the debate made an effort to ensure that reconciliation occurred after the event, and that there was little ongoing acrimony and almost no triumphalism. Compare that with the triumphalist and confrontational attitudes of Farage and his supporters, Redwood, IDS and others. Too be fair (if I really must), I would say that Boris Johnson and Theresa May have at least attempted to some extent to buck this trend. 

But resorting to name calling of a sort that would do credit to the arch misogynist himself, Donald Trump, doesn't do anyone any credit, nor does it attempt to bring unity to a very acrimonious and divided debate.      

Hmack posted:

Don, ...................

However, this is where we may come to blows (figuratively speaking). I am not a Scottish Nationalist, but I view Nicola Sturgeon as being a pillar of respectability and honour by comparison with the likes of TM, Boris, Nigel and the rest.....................

The labelling of Nicola Sturgeon as "that 'Poison Dwarf'" isn't going to go down well in Scotland at all. She is pretty uniformly respected in Scotland by people on all sides of the Independence debate, and If the right wing press adopt this name-calling approach, then this may be the thing that tips the scale in Scotland and persuades Scots to vote for Independence.   

I agree with all the positive attributes that you confer on Nicola Sturgeon. The discourteous label is only associated IMHO with her single-mindedness over Independence and the fact that she seems willing to use any argument or situation as an excuse pursue that cause. It is probably unfair (and unwise) to use the term and I hope the Press and politicians don't sink to my debased level of un-etiquette. My apologies.

Hmack, why do you find it hard to believe a few of my colleagues and friends - je ne comprend pas? Perhaps I am missing something - sorry I just dropped into this thread - and now confused.... perhaps I'll leave again as I find this Brexit thread unfathomable and bristling with hostility  against other forum members...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack, why do you find it hard to believe my colleagues and friends - je ne comprend pas? Perhaps I am missing something - sorry I just dropped into this thread - and now confused.... perhaps I'll leave again as I find this Brexit thread unfathomable...

 

Simon,

Perhaps a misguided attempt at sarcasm on my part. Now, along with personal name-calling, sarcasm is something else I do not admire, so I apologize for that.

I also have to admit that I am not averse to name calling myself at times - it's normally just a bit of banter between colleagues and friends  -  but when the name calling is as personal as this, as obviously related to a person's physical appearance as this is, and perhaps designed to be adopted more universally by opponents of that person, then to my mind it just becomes a little sleazy and unattractive.

Perhaps an old fashioned attitude, and one that should lie down and die along with the liberal elite - now there I go being sarcastic again, but just the way I happen to feel . There is just too much general nastiness around these days.   

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack, why do you find it hard to believe a few of my colleagues and friends - je ne comprend pas? Perhaps I am missing something - sorry I just dropped into this thread - and now confused.... perhaps I'll leave again as I find this Brexit thread unfathomable and bristling with hostility  against other forum members...

 

Hi Simon,

Despite knowing your feelings about Brexit, I don't think I (nor too many others) have shown hostility towards you. I appreciate there is hostility, but on balance - it appears to be in the opposite direction (not from you personally).

On several occasions I have asked Leavers to set out their Brexit aspirations and to either state that they acknowledge we will face a lower standard of living or illustrate why they are convinced that Brexit will improve our standard of living. Silence. I trust you don't consider such asking to constitute hostility.

Cheers, Don

Hmack I agree about nastiness - and surely we don't need to be nasty amongst our selves just because we have different views..?? Labels can be useful - but surely they shouldn't be personal - I agree poison dwarf is not very complimentary about NS - but she has an uncanny way of bopping up and down when exited and being passionate - I must admit my analogy has been Rumpelstiltskin  and if  she were a friend of mine I would tease  her on that and I am sure in private company she would chuckle 

ltaylor posted:

There is no such thing as hard Brexit or soft Brexit. Leaving the EU is Brexit. Soft and hard Brexit is an invention by losers (it is loser by the way, not looser) like Clegg and that half-wit Farron, They want to pretend that there is an alternative, which basically amounts to staying in the EU.Brussels has made it abundantly clear that freedom of movement is tied in with membership of the Customs Union. This was spelled out repeatedly prior to the vote and this is what the majority of us voted for. I get that you dont like that, but you are going to have to suck it up. You had nearly all the media on your side and most of the MPs and you still lost. You could always form your own UK Dependance Party and campaign to join the EU.

I thought that freedom of movement was tied up with membership of the Single Market ?

ltaylor posted:

There is no such thing as hard Brexit or soft Brexit. Leaving the EU is Brexit. Soft and hard Brexit is an invention by losers (it is loser by the way, not looser) like Clegg and that half-wit Farron, They want to pretend that there is an alternative, which basically amounts to staying in the EU. Brussels has made it abundantly clear that freedom of movement is tied in with membership of the Customs Union. This was spelled out repeatedly prior to the vote and this is what the majority of us voted for. I get that you dont like that, but you are going to have to suck it up. You had nearly all the media on your side and most of the MPs and you still lost. You could always form your own UK Dependance Party and campaign to join the EU.

The big elephant in the room problem is that leaving the EU is going to do nothing to improve the lives of those who in the main voted for Brexit.  

May is acting like the doctor who, on being told a patient has a headache, prescribes codeine without noticing that they have a huge nail sticking in their head!

May is accepting that people voted on immigration issues and yes a large proportion of people did vote on that issue.  But talk to people: they also voted on the issue of the NHS, housing and generally on the fact that they feel that Westminster ignores them and they wanted a change.

As for some of your comments ... you're wrong: by circulation "almost all the media" was on the side of Leave.  In addition the Leave campaign repeatedly said that the UK could remain in the Single Market while controlling immigration and they promised that leaving wouldn't affect trade.

There is an alternative... but May is more interested in politics and remaining in power than actually dealing with the countries problems, reducing inequality and making people's lives better.

For one I will continue to campaign for the best relationship with Europe until that is impossible.  The way we are going we will be leaving the EU, only to get closer to Trump's America... I have little doubt that his promise of trade agreements won't be entirely to the advantage of the UK will ride roughshod over things like food standards.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack I agree about nastiness - but surely we don't need to be nasty amongst our selves..?? Labels can be useful - but surely they shouldn't be personal - I agree poison dwarf is not very complimentary about NS - but she has an uncanny way of bopping up and down when exited and being passionate - I must admit my analogy has been Rumpelstiltskin  and if  she were a friend of mine I would tease  her on that and I am sure in private company she would chuckle 

I agree, and I am sure that your use of the label was not intended to be misogynistic in any way whatsoever, and was simply a bit of innocent fun. I probably over-reacted to this, but as Don states, I don't think that there has been much, if any, hostility towards you personally. I certainly do not feel in any way hostile towards you or others on your side of the argument.

However, some people who 'take part' in the debate really need to realise that this is not just a simple 'winners' or 'losers' debate. There are a number of people who are agnostic or apathetic about the referendum and result, and are prepared simply to glibly use the phrase 'just get on with it' or use the 'boring'/ 'yaawwwnnn' tag. What these people don't seem to realise is that, unlike them, many of the 'losers' in the debate care deeply about Britain's political and social future, and not a few have been adversely affected by the result and the way that Brexit appears to be heading, in a literally life changing way. Should those people just go away and stick their heads in the sand?     

Eloise posted:

There is an alternative... but May is more interested in politics and remaining in power than actually dealing with the countries problems, reducing inequality and making people's lives better.

 

I think you may have TM somewhat wrong, I think Cardinal Nichols had quite an interesting pespective on TM in this context on TM's support for combating human trafficking and her support and work for the Santa Marta Group.

"This is a clear indication not only of your determination to use high political office for the protection of some of the world's most vulnerable people but also of your willingness to work with the Catholic Church at its highest levels,"

What ever you may think of the Catholic Church - to me I think there is a very human side to TM and I find refreshing and comforting to see in a national leader.

Hmack posted:

 What these people don't seem to realise is that, unlike them, many of the 'losers' in the debate care deeply about Britain's political and social future, and not a few have been adversely affected by the result and the way that Brexit appears to be heading, in a literally life changing way. Should those people just go away and stick their heads in the sand?     

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Eloise posted:

There is an alternative... but May is more interested in politics and remaining in power than actually dealing with the country's problems, reducing inequality and making people's lives better.

I think you may have TM somewhat wrong, I think Cardinal Nichols had quite an interesting pespective on TM in this context on TM's support for combating human trafficking and her support and work for the Santa Marta Group.

"This is a clear indication not only of your determination to use high political office for the protection of some of the world's most vulnerable people but also of your willingness to work with the Catholic Church at its highest levels,"

What ever you may think of the Catholic Church - to me I think there is a very human side to TM and I find refreshing and comforting to see in a national leader.

Regardless of her positive contribution to the fight against human trafficking...

She has worked since her appointment as Home Secretary to fight a racist battle against immigrants to the UK.  

She fought against the UK offering support to refugees caused in part by the UK's intervention in the Middle East.  

She has continued to support a Health Minister who is systematically destroying the NHS in a way no health minister has before.  

She supports the degrading assessment of those in this country who are unfortunate enough to require social support due to illness and disability.

She has stated her intention to use the lives of EU citizens who came to this country to work hard for the benefit in many cases of the citizens of the UK as pawns in her battles with the EU27.

And finally as a member of the conservative government for the last 7 years she has also been instrumental in the widening of inequality between the haves and the have nots in this country and overseen one of the biggest increases in people in real poverty ever seen!

So no I don't think I have Theresa May's actions wrong!

Fair enough (apart from the NHS comment that I vehemently disagree with).. who would you aspire to have in her place?

And, don't forget, she refused to extradite Gary McKinnen to the US

Eloise posted:

The big elephant in the room problem is that leaving the EU is going to do nothing to improve the lives of those who in the main voted for Brexit.  

Well you have no proof of that, do you? So why state it as if it were fact? It's speculation on your part - you might be right, but you might also be wrong. The least you could do is say "may do nothing".

The even bigger elephant in the room for Remainers, both philosophically and practically, is the assumption that the EU will remain as it is (something I find very unlikely), and proving that the UK's lot would not deteriorate had it remained in the EU. It is highly unlikely that the EU will be in the same place in a year's time, especially if the French, Italians and Dutch move to the right and elect anti-EU parties. Personally I see the EU as teetering on the edge of if not total collapse, then permanent crisis.

The reason I voted Brexit is because I regard the EU as a failing neo-liberal project, wedded to a bankrupt fiscal orthodoxy, obsessed with austerity and and built around the utter catastrophe that is the Euro.

I concede that leaving carries with it an enormous risk, but, when weighed against a continually worsening status quo, the risk becomes one worth running IMO. Better to get out while the going's still reasonably good than to go down with the ship.

Kevin-W posted:

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Hi Kevin,

I don't have access to statistics so am limited to myself and a few dozen friends, some of whom voted to leave and others who voted to remain.

Most of those who voted to remain, are now frustrated, angry and despairing. Some are depressed and fearful. They have been badly affected.

I posted the following on 3rd Jan earlier in this thread :-

Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU, I am determined to protest and resist but at the same do what I can to minimise in the avaiation industry the effect of leaving and maximise any possible glimmer of benefit that might emerge.

I could have done without this sodding burden at my time of life !

Just the "positive" side of this takes time and effort, whatever the future holds.

I have therefore been affected.

I doubt if I am alone !