Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Oh, on a more selfish note, Mrs D and to a lesser extent myself, frequently travel to Canada to spend time with our children and grandchildren. The cost of airfares has risen and the value of the ££ has fallen dramatically.

Our income in Canada helps to offset some of this burden. But we have been affected.

Feeling sorry for you ... regular flights to Canada .... Canadian income .... sterling plummeting .... hard life ....

Apart from it surged nearly US 3% against the dollar today.. certainly sterling volatile at the moment..

Fair enough Don, I have been affected too - I travel to Europe a lot for work and the weak pound has hit me pretty hard. But I see that as a short-term hardship for long-term gain.

I can see too, why you would want to lobby for the best outcome for the industry you work in.

However, I have to take objection to one thing you said: Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU. This is wrong, surely. Those in power are doing what have been asked of them by the majority of people in the UK who could be bothered to vote in the June referendum.

Don Atkinson posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Hi Kevin,

I don't have access to statistics so am limited to myself and a few dozen friends, some of whom voted to leave and others who voted to remain.

Most of those who voted to remain, are now frustrated, angry and despairing. Some are depressed and fearful. They have been badly affected.

I posted the following on 3rd Jan earlier in this thread :-

Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU, I am determined to protest and resist but at the same do what I can to minimise in the avaiation industry the effect of leaving and maximise any possible glimmer of benefit that might emerge.

I could have done without this sodding burden at my time of life !

Just the "positive" side of this takes time and effort, whatever the future holds.

I have therefore been affected.

I doubt if I am alone !

Don, I think it's only a burden if you let it become one. I was a fervent remain supporter, with the poster in the window and constantly banging on at people at work as to why remaining was the right thing for Britain. When the result came in I was devastated for days. 

Then of course at the end of August I had my accident and have been told by the neuropsychologists that I must stay relaxed and not become stressed, in order for my brain functions to have the best chance of recovery. So that's what I've done. Brexit just washes over me. 

A major head injury is not recommended, but if it anaesthetises you from Brexit, it does have some advantages. In an odd way. 

ynwa250505 posted:

Feeling sorry for you ... regular flights to Canada .... Canadian income .... sterling plummeting .... hard life ....

YYYaaawwwnnnn

Kevin-W posted:

Hmack posted:

 What these people don't seem to realise is that, unlike them, many of the 'losers' in the debate care deeply about Britain's political and social future, and not a few have been adversely affected by the result and the way that Brexit appears to be heading, in a literally life changing way. Should those people just go away and stick their heads in the sand?     

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Many people have been adversely impacted by the result of the referendum. That is surely beyond debate.  However, perhaps I should have included the word "potentially", when I stated that "not a few would be adversely affected in a life changing way". 

OK - here goes.

I will begin by returning to the historical and current political and social situation in Northern Ireland. Brexit has already made its impact here. Unless Theresa May and her Government can implement a solution that does not involve the re-establishment of border controls between Northern Ireland and Eire, there will be a life-changing impact on many thousands of people who live on both sides of the border between these countries. Not only that, but the inevitable friction of day to day inconvenience and distrust could quite easily lead to a resurgence of the violence associated with the political divide that continues to simmer in the background. Not only life changing, but potentially life threatening. I am sure that almost everyone (whichever side of the debate one is on) has a burning desire to avoid this happening. Unfortunately, the topic has apparently been deemed 'too difficult' to highlight and discuss. Given todays announcement by Theresa May, and her focus on migration control at the expense of membership of the single market, we do seem to be inevitably moving closer and closer to the doomsday scenario on this front.

There are many thousands of retired UK Nationals living in Europe, and who face a great degree of uncertainty about their personal futures. Now, maybe it isn't fashionable to sympathise with members of the older generation who have chosen to retire to the sun. However, for the most part, they are not the super rich or privileged, they are simply our parents or grandparents.

There are thousands of UK students who are studying, or intend to study, in the EU. You may say that they are unlikely to be impacted by Brexit, but there is simply no way of knowing if this will be the case. If Britain, under Theresa May, decides to impose draconian obstacles on workers and students gaining entry to the UK, why should we expect our students to be given access to the EU? Who are you or I to say, if we are not permitted to have our say in the process and agree to simply sit down and shut up , that Theresa May will not impose such draconian obstacles.

There are many thousands of UK nationals working in Europe, for whom exactly the same set of arguments apply.

There are forecasts of tens of thousands of job losses in the Financial sector if Britain adopts a 'Hard Brexit' stance in our negotiations. Again, it probably isn't fashionable to support those who work in the financial sector. However, most of the people who work in that sector are not the super rich, super greedy investment bankers (hey - isn't Nigel Farage one of those?). No, they are by and large the ordinary receptionist, office clerk and others in similar categories. Just normal, hard working people. Who are the people who will potentially suffer and lose their jobs as a result of a 'hard' Brexit - certainly not the super rich few, but the ordinary normal person like you or I.

From a personal perspective, I will possibly not be adversely impacted in a life changing way. Like everyone else, I will be financially impacted by the falling currency and by the likely rises in inflation, but then I am in the lucky in that I will be able to accommodate these. Many others won't be so lucky. I may have to cut down on my holidays and trips abroad because of the inevitable increasing costs, but I appreciate that not everyone is privileged enough to be able to afford them at all anyway. And, there may be a positive impact on the British Tourist Industry, so that can't be bad.

However, if Scotland does vote for Independence, then my life will potentially be impacted in a number of life changing ways.

That's enough for now, and I think more than enough for anyone to understand that the 'losers' in the recent referendum feel the right to make our views heard, and to fight for at least some say in the almost inevitably irreversible direction that our Country (or those who claim to represent our Country) seem committed to.         

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Apart from it surged nearly US 3% against the dollar today.. certainly sterling volatile at the moment..

Hi Simon,

.........sterling volatile isn't usually a "good thing", especially when the general trend is downhill and has been since June.

And not just against the $US.

Kevin was asking for specifics of how Brexit has affect people so far. I was giving one or two personal, examples. The adverse effects are definitely real.

OTOH (to be fair) I have had one ex-student, who is living in Rotterdam, do a little bit of extra flying with us, because he got more £££ for his Euros than before June.

But let's face it, it's a bit rough when it takes a Remainer to provide examples on this forum of "beneficial" effects of Brexit !!

Kevin-W posted:

Fair enough Don, I have been affected too - I travel to Europe a lot for work and the weak pound has hit me pretty hard. But I see that as a short-term hardship for long-term gain.

I can see too, why you would want to lobby for the best outcome for the industry you work in.

However, I have to take objection to one thing you said: Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU. This is wrong, surely. Those in power are doing what have been asked of them by the majority of people in the UK who could be bothered to vote in the June referendum.

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for being honest and providing a balanced picture of affects.

As for the "Given that those in power...." this was simply a statement of fact leading into the point I was trying to make. Using your suggested wording would have been cumbersome, and I don't think what I wrote was totally misleading. We don't all possess your journalistic skills....

Hungryhalibut posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Hi Kevin,

I don't have access to statistics so am limited to myself and a few dozen friends, some of whom voted to leave and others who voted to remain.

Most of those who voted to remain, are now frustrated, angry and despairing. Some are depressed and fearful. They have been badly affected.

I posted the following on 3rd Jan earlier in this thread :-

Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU, I am determined to protest and resist but at the same do what I can to minimise in the avaiation industry the effect of leaving and maximise any possible glimmer of benefit that might emerge.

I could have done without this sodding burden at my time of life !

Just the "positive" side of this takes time and effort, whatever the future holds.

I have therefore been affected.

I doubt if I am alone !

Don, I think it's only a burden if you let it become one. I was a fervent remain supporter, with the poster in the window and constantly banging on at people at work as to why remaining was the right thing for Britain. When the result came in I was devastated for days. 

Then of course at the end of August I had my accident and have been told by the neuropsychologists that I must stay relaxed and not become stressed, in order for my brain functions to have the best chance of recovery. So that's what I've done. Brexit just washes over me. 

A major head injury is not recommended, but if it anaesthetises you from Brexit, it does have some advantages. In an odd way. 

Hi HH,

What you say is true. I have chosen to take on some extra work, but I don't get stressed over it. I am allocating more "work" time, and probably spending more conversational time to it with neighbours etc. And more time here rather than the "Brain Teaser" thread or the "Core" thread, so there are a few more (minor) benefits

But I could have done without it ! And more importantly, I do hope you are continuing to improve towards a full recovery - you seem to be in good spirits ?

BTW, I went to an evening meeting last Thursday at County Hall in Chichester. Parked in a side street and walked past the circular library and past large open-plan offices to the main visitor entrance. Thought about you and wondered if this was where you worked.

Hmack posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Hmack posted:

 What these people don't seem to realise is that, unlike them, many of the 'losers' in the debate care deeply about Britain's political and social future, and not a few have been adversely affected by the result and the way that Brexit appears to be heading, in a literally life changing way. Should those people just go away and stick their heads in the sand?     

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Many people have been adversely impacted by the result of the referendum. That is surely beyond debate.  However, perhaps I should have included the word "potentially", when I stated that "not a few would be adversely affected in a life changing way". 

OK - here goes.

I will begin by returning to the historical and current political and social situation in Northern Ireland. Brexit has already made its impact here. Unless Theresa May and her Government can implement a solution that does not involve the re-establishment of border controls between Northern Ireland and Eire, there will be a life-changing impact on many thousands of people who live on both sides of the border between these countries. Not only that, but the inevitable friction of day to day inconvenience and distrust could quite easily lead to a resurgence of the violence associated with the political divide that continues to simmer in the background. Not only life changing, but potentially life threatening. I am sure that almost everyone (whichever side of the debate one is on) has a burning desire to avoid this happening. Unfortunately, the topic has apparently been deemed 'too difficult' to highlight and discuss. Given todays announcement by Theresa May, and her focus on migration control at the expense of membership of the single market, we do seem to be inevitably moving closer and closer to the doomsday scenario on this front.

There are many thousands of retired UK Nationals living in Europe, and who face a great degree of uncertainty about their personal futures. Now, maybe it isn't fashionable to sympathise with members of the older generation who have chosen to retire to the sun. However, for the most part, they are not the super rich or privileged, they are simply our parents or grandparents.

There are thousands of UK students who are studying, or intend to study, in the EU. You may say that they are unlikely to be impacted by Brexit, but there is simply no way of knowing if this will be the case. If Britain, under Theresa May, decides to impose draconian obstacles on workers and students gaining entry to the UK, why should we expect our students to be given access to the EU? Who are you or I to say, if we are not permitted to have our say in the process and agree to simply sit down and shut up , that Theresa May will not impose such draconian obstacles.

There are many thousands of UK nationals working in Europe, for whom exactly the same set of arguments apply.

There are forecasts of tens of thousands of job losses in the Financial sector if Britain adopts a 'Hard Brexit' stance in our negotiations. Again, it probably isn't fashionable to support those who work in the financial sector. However, most of the people who work in that sector are not the super rich, super greedy investment bankers (hey - isn't Nigel Farage one of those?). No, they are by and large the ordinary receptionist, office clerk and others in similar categories. Just normal, hard working people. Who are the people who will potentially suffer and lose their jobs as a result of a 'hard' Brexit - certainly not the super rich few, but the ordinary normal person like you or I.

From a personal perspective, I will possibly not be adversely impacted in a life changing way. Like everyone else, I will be financially impacted by the falling currency and by the likely rises in inflation, but then I am in the lucky in that I will be able to accommodate these. Many others won't be so lucky. I may have to cut down on my holidays and trips abroad because of the inevitable increasing costs, but I appreciate that not everyone is privileged enough to be able to afford them at all anyway. And, there may be a positive impact on the British Tourist Industry, so that can't be bad.

However, if Scotland does vote for Independence, then my life will potentially be impacted in a number of life changing ways.

That's enough for now, and I think more than enough for anyone to understand that the 'losers' in the recent referendum feel the right to make our views heard, and to fight for at least some say in the almost inevitably irreversible direction that our Country (or those who claim to represent our Country) seem committed to.         

Well after that, there is only one thing to review Boris Johnson horror at winning Brexit result

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6HNXtdvVQ

Hmack posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Hmack posted:

 What these people don't seem to realise is that, unlike them, many of the 'losers' in the debate care deeply about Britain's political and social future, and not a few have been adversely affected by the result and the way that Brexit appears to be heading, in a literally life changing way. Should those people just go away and stick their heads in the sand?     

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Many people have been adversely impacted by the result of the referendum. That is surely beyond debate.  However, perhaps I should have included the word "potentially", when I stated that "not a few would be adversely affected in a life changing way". 

OK - here goes.

...............

From a personal perspective, I will possibly not be adversely impacted in a life changing way. Like everyone else, I will be financially impacted by the falling currency and by the likely rises in inflation, but then I am in the lucky in that I will be able to accommodate these. Many others won't be so lucky. I may have to cut down on my holidays and trips abroad because of the inevitable increasing costs, but I appreciate that not everyone is privileged enough to be able to afford them at all anyway. And, there may be a positive impact on the British Tourist Industry, so that can't be bad.

   

I haven't copied your entire post but it comprises excellent points Hmack and assertively (not aggressively) put.

Whilst I agree that the British Tourist Industry might benefit, with fewer people able to holiday abroad, I anticipate more people seeking holidays in the UK. And the cost of UK holidays increasing as well as oversea holidays. It strikes me that for the average UK holidaymaker, it will be a lose-lose situation, even though the industry might benefit.

I appreciate this is a relatively minor issue in the light of the big picture.

Don, I agree voltailty not a good thing, my view is sterling was over valued and perhaps is more where it should be.. certainly many farmers in this part of the world (where I live) have had a shot in the arm as their poultry, pork, dairy even silage  you name it has become more competitive with imports becoming more expensive or more true cost... true it shouldn't have required a Brexit vote to do this....

HMack, Nobody is saying you can't have an opinion, but what I find depressing is the constant doom-mongering by bed-wetting Bremaniacs - led by such egregious characters as the (now thankfully discredited) Osborne, treacherous Clegg, Farron (almost as much of sleazy chancer as Farage is), Mandelson, Cameron and various multinationals looking for cheap labour - when, as you quite rightly point out, nobody can know what the effects of Brexit will be.

And as I pointed out in another post, no Remainer has, to my knowledge, considered what the cost to the UK of remaining in the EU will be -. Also, free movement sounds like a noble aim but it just doesn't work - especially in a spawling bloc of countries all at differing states of development and in wildly different staes of economic health; really, it comes across as a way for the bourgeoisie to employ cheap cleaners, nannies and builders; and for big business to drive down labour costs.

I agree that the situation with Northern Ireland (and Gibraltar, for that matter) is troubling, but far more pressing at the moment is the crisis caused by the collapse of the power-sharing deal between the DUP and Sinn Féin, and the snap general election in March.

My utterly uninformed guess is that Ireland will eventually pull out of the EU as well, forming an Anglophone trading bloc with the UK, thus eliminating the need for borders between North and South. But that's just a guess, like anyone else's.

Kevin, sorry to me Farron takes the biscuit.. true you could consider Farron and Farage  similar but opposite ends of the spectrum, but if push came to shove I would give the nod to Forage I just think he is more sincere, marmite, but sincere... sorry Cleg has lost all credibility for me, I actively switch off the radio when he comes on... I did try and analyze this recently and I think it's because I actually voted for him once.... but his almost complete capitulation and sell out to Cameron was appalling in my eyes. I need my politicians to be principled and backboned whether I agree with them or not..

Kevin-W posted:

HMack, Nobody is saying you can't have an opinion, but what I find depressing is the constant doom-mongering by bed-wetting Bremaniacs - led by such egregious characters as the (now thankfully discredited) Osborne, treacherous Clegg, Farron (almost as much of sleazy chancer as Farage is), Mandelson, Cameron and various multinationals looking for cheap labour - when, as you quite rightly point out, nobody can know what the effects of Brexit will be.

And as I pointed out in another post, no Remainer has, to my knowledge, considered what the cost to the UK of remaining in the EU will be -. Also, free movement sounds like a noble aim but it just doesn't work - especially in a spawling bloc of countries all at differing states of development and in wildly different staes of economic health; really, it comes across as a way for the bourgeoisie to employ cheap cleaners, nannies and builders; and for big business to drive down labour costs.

I agree that the situation with Northern Ireland (and Gibraltar, for that matter) is troubling, but far more pressing at the moment is the crisis caused by the collapse of the power-sharing deal between the DUP and Sinn Féin, and the snap general election in March.

My utterly uninformed guess is that Ireland will eventually pull out of the EU as well, forming an Anglophone trading bloc with the UK, thus eliminating the need for borders between North and South. But that's just a guess, like anyone else's.

I consider it the responsibility of the Leavers to spell out the cost of "remaining". But to help.....

....and rather flippantly, they could start with £350mpw................

.....but would have to admit to a blatant lie, and then take into account the win/loose on manufacturing, trade, banking, service industry, civil service-administration etc. I never did quite catch the audited version during the Leave campaign ! but I rather formed the informal opinion it resulted in a nett benefit if we Remained.

Simon - I completely agree, so no need to apologise.

Farron is just awful, and Clegg is the very exemplar of treachery and greed for power - two men of staggering irrelevance who would do anything to have some sort of influence.

Don Atkinson posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Who are these "not a few" who've been "adversely affected by the result"? And how have they been adversely affected? Genuinely interested...

Hi Kevin,

I don't have access to statistics so am limited to myself and a few dozen friends, some of whom voted to leave and others who voted to remain.

Most of those who voted to remain, are now frustrated, angry and despairing. Some are depressed and fearful. They have been badly affected.

I posted the following on 3rd Jan earlier in this thread :-

Given that those in power are determined to take us out of the EU, I am determined to protest and resist but at the same do what I can to minimise in the avaiation industry the effect of leaving and maximise any possible glimmer of benefit that might emerge.

I could have done without this sodding burden at my time of life !

Just the "positive" side of this takes time and effort, whatever the future holds.

I have therefore been affected.

I doubt if I am alone !

Don, I think it's only a burden if you let it become one. I was a fervent remain supporter, with the poster in the window and constantly banging on at people at work as to why remaining was the right thing for Britain. When the result came in I was devastated for days. 

Then of course at the end of August I had my accident and have been told by the neuropsychologists that I must stay relaxed and not become stressed, in order for my brain functions to have the best chance of recovery. So that's what I've done. Brexit just washes over me. 

A major head injury is not recommended, but if it anaesthetises you from Brexit, it does have some advantages. In an odd way. 

Hi HH,

What you say is true. I have chosen to take on some extra work, but I don't get stressed over it. I am allocating more "work" time, and probably spending more conversational time to it with neighbours etc. And more time here rather than the "Brain Teaser" thread or the "Core" thread, so there are a few more (minor) benefits

But I could have done without it ! And more importantly, I do hope you are continuing to improve towards a full recovery - you seem to be in good spirits ?

BTW, I went to an evening meeting last Thursday at County Hall in Chichester. Parked in a side street and walked past the circular library and past large open-plan offices to the main visitor entrance. Thought about you and wondered if this was where you worked.

Absolutely. The office is at the front and overlooks the circular flower bed with the roses and lavender. The psychotherapist says recovery - insofar as one ever recovers - can take up to two years. Let's just hope the insurance company accept liability soon, as my sick pay stops at the end of the month, though I stay on the payroll of course. Goodness knows how long that will all rumble on, as it's all in the hands of the doctors. The odd thing is that I'm happier than I've been for years, probably because not going to work strips all the stress away. And because I don't know if I'll get my licence back by summer we have booked the TGV to Aix for our summer holiday. Beats driving regardless. 

Anyway, thanks for asking, and back to the B word....

Don, I agree that the Leave campaign was most fought on lies, whereas the Remain camp built theirs on hyperbolic predictions of doom and empty threats such as Osborne's "Punishment Budget": neither side emerged with any credit whatsoever.

If one is being honest, nobody can know what the effects of remaining would be, just as nobody can be sure what the effects of Brexit will be. However, I believe the EU as currently structured is in deep trouble, and possibly doomed, so I figure leaving is a viable - if risky - option.

Kevin-W posted:

HMack, Nobody is saying you can't have an opinion, but what I find depressing is the constant doom-mongering by bed-wetting Bremaniacs - led by such egregious characters as the (now thankfully discredited) Osborne, treacherous Clegg, Farron (almost as much of sleazy chancer as Farage is), Mandelson, Cameron and various multinationals looking for cheap labour - when, as you quite rightly point out, nobody can know what the effects of Brexit will be.

And as I pointed out in another post, no Remainer has, to my knowledge, considered what the cost to the UK of remaining in the EU will be -. Also, free movement sounds like a noble aim but it just doesn't work - especially in a spawling bloc of countries all at differing states of development and in wildly different staes of economic health; really, it comes across as a way for the bourgeoisie to employ cheap cleaners, nannies and builders; and for big business to drive down labour costs.

I agree that the situation with Northern Ireland (and Gibraltar, for that matter) is troubling, but far more pressing at the moment is the crisis caused by the collapse of the power-sharing deal between the DUP and Sinn Féin, and the snap general election in March.

My utterly uninformed guess is that Ireland will eventually pull out of the EU as well, forming an Anglophone trading bloc with the UK, thus eliminating the need for borders between North and South. But that's just a guess, like anyone else's.

Hi Kevin,

I noted very carefully that TM referred to "controlling  EU immigration". Not eliminating or reducing EU immigration.

And if immigration is such an important benefit to the "....bourgeoisie to employ cheap cleaners, nannies and builders; and for big business to drive down labour costs." i'm pretty sure they will find a way to do this regardless of any Rules emerging from Westminster poet Brexit. Welcome India, Pakistan and the Far East......

Immigration will reduce from 600,000 pa (300,000 EU + 300,000 non-EU) to 599,999 (all non-EU).

Don, I agree that controlled immigration has net benefits for the country, but uncontrolled immigation - be it from the EU or outwith - as introduced by Blair and Brown in the late 90s/early 2000s does not. Finding the right level that satisfies the needs of the economy and the demands of hardcore Bexiters is going to prove very tricky.

I think May will also learn pretty quickly that she will have to put a stop to most immigration from places like Southern Asia, North Africa, etc as well.

Kevin-W posted:

Don, I agree that the Leave campaign was most fought on lies, whereas the Remain camp built theirs on hyperbolic predictions of doom and empty threats such as Osborne's "Punishment Budget": neither side emerged with any credit whatsoever.

If one is being honest, nobody can know what the effects of remaining would be, just as nobody can be sure what the effects of Brexit will be. However, I believe the EU as currently structured is in deep trouble, and possibly doomed, so I figure leaving is a viable - if risky - option.

fair enough Kevin. One of my flying instructor colleagues also voted Leave for similar reason to you. I think I did mention this fact months ago in this thread.

We all assess risk in different ways.

I am an optimist (so is he) we both do most of our flying training in single engined aeroplanes or light twins that with one engine out need careful handling. So almost by definition we are optimists. we just perceive or evaluate risk differently !

Unfortunately, i'm not entirely convinced that our politicians do much evaluation other than their political future.

LOL

So, in the last hour or so, we’ve had a large number of leading UK politicians described as poisonous, treacherous, discredited, sleazy, racist and generally incompetent.

Yet, one of the main arguments the leavers put forward was “we should take back control”  

Given the descriptions above, do any of the brexiteers actually approve of the UK politicians now in control.

Kevin-W posted:

Don, I agree that controlled immigration has net benefits for the country, but uncontrolled immigation - be it from the EU or outwith - as introduced by Blair and Brown in the late 90s/early 2000s does not. Finding the right level that satisfies the needs of the economy and the demands of hardcore Bexiters is going to prove very tricky.

I think May will also learn pretty quickly that she will have to put a stop to most immigration from places like Southern Asia, North Africa, etc as well.

Perhaps, but unless total immigration reduces dramatically, and I do mean dramatically, an awfull lot of Brexit voters are going to be disgruntled. In other words, I think an awfull lot of Brexit voters are going to be disgruntled.

fatcat posted:

LOL

So, in the last hour or so, we’ve had a large number of leading UK politicians described as poisonous, treacherous, discredited, sleazy, racist and generally incompetent.

Yet, one of the main arguments the leavers put forward was “we should take back control”  

Given the descriptions above, do any of the brexiteers actually approve of the UK politicians now in control.

 

No, I don't, personally. But then again I'm not a Tory, and never have been (I'm actually a fair way to the Left, with a libertarian streak). And nor did I vote "leave" in order to "take back control", as even a cursory read of my previous posts would have demostrated. What's your point?