Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

If our economy is half as enduring as this thread then I suspect we will be just fine after brexit

Kevin-W posted:

fatcat posted:

LOL

So, in the last hour or so, we’ve had a large number of leading UK politicians described as poisonous, treacherous, discredited, sleazy, racist and generally incompetent.

Yet, one of the main arguments the leavers put forward was “we should take back control”  

Given the descriptions above, do any of the brexiteers actually approve of the UK politicians now in control.

 

No, I don't, personally. But then again I'm not a Tory, and never have been (I'm actually a fair way to the Left, with a libertarian streak). And nor did I vote "leave" in order to "take back control", as even a cursory read of my previous posts would have demostrated. What's your point?

Well, you knew when you voted out, the Tories would be taking back control.

The point is, it doesn’t matter who’s in control, the decisions made by the large majority of Uk politicians, will be made based on what is best for their party or more disturbingly, what is best for them personally. (as shown by Gove and Johnsons behaviour in the run up to the referendum).

If you read my previous post, you'll realise I've made this point before.

fatcat posted:

LOL

So, in the last hour or so, we’ve had a large number of leading UK politicians described as poisonous, treacherous, discredited, sleazy, racist and generally incompetent.

Yet, one of the main arguments the leavers put forward was “we should take back control”  

Given the descriptions above, do any of the brexiteers actually approve of the UK politicians now in control.

 

To many people (ok to many of the people whom I spoke to) that phrase gave them the subliminal message that they, as individuals  (as opposed to Westminster politicians and civil servants) were somehow going to gain control of................ "something". How disappointed they are going to be.

The thought of giving control of anything to Redwood, Gove, Farage or Boris, leaves me feeling indescribably pessimistic !

Hungryhalibut posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Hi HH,

But I could have done without it ! And more importantly, I do hope you are continuing to improve towards a full recovery - you seem to be in good spirits ?

BTW, I went to an evening meeting last Thursday at County Hall in Chichester. Parked in a side street and walked past the circular library and past large open-plan offices to the main visitor entrance. Thought about you and wondered if this was where you worked.

Absolutely. The office is at the front and overlooks the circular flower bed with the roses and lavender. The psychotherapist says recovery - insofar as one ever recovers - can take up to two years. Let's just hope the insurance company accept liability soon, as my sick pay stops at the end of the month, though I stay on the payroll of course. Goodness knows how long that will all rumble on, as it's all in the hands of the doctors. The odd thing is that I'm happier than I've been for years, probably because not going to work strips all the stress away. And because I don't know if I'll get my licence back by summer we have booked the TGV to Aix for our summer holiday. Beats driving regardless. 

Anyway, thanks for asking, and back to the B word....

I somehow felt I had almost "met" you as I walked past those windows.

Anyhow, I'm pleased to hear that you are "happier now...." in spite of the circumstances, and those TGV's are a nice way to travel !

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin, sorry to me Farron takes the biscuit.. true you could consider Farron and Farage  similar but opposite ends of the spectrum, but if push came to shove I would give the nod to Forage I just think he is more sincere, marmite, but sincere... sorry Cleg has lost all credibility for me, I actively switch off the radio when he comes on... I did try and analyze this recently and I think it's because I actually voted for him once.... but his almost complete capitulation and sell out to Cameron was appalling in my eyes. I need my politicians to be principled and backboned whether I agree with them or not..

 

Simon, I am genuinely astonished by this post.

I truly do not understand how any reasonable person (and you normally come across to me as a reasonable person) could even begin to consider Farron and Farage to be "similar but on opposite ends of the spectrum". 

There are many people whom I would label as 'sincere', but to many (including myself), Nigel Farage is nothing but a triumphalist buffoon with some extremely dangerous opinions, and who has met his ideal match with his new buddy, Donald Trump. I am afraid that I view both of these individuals as simply 'bad' and 'nasty' human beings whom I dislike with a passion. Extremely simplistic I know, and possibly extremely naïve, but in the end, irrespective of one's policies, that is what really matters in my view. There are some 'good' and some 'bad' people in this world, and the rest of us fall somewhere in between.  

I disagree with many of the people who are leading the opposite side of the Brexit campaign, but I don't hold May, Johnson IDS or most of the current PM's clique (with the exception of John Redwood) with anything like the degree of contempt I feel for Farage and Trump.  

I genuinely don't understand how anyone could feel as strongly as this about either Fallon or Clegg, despite the fact that like Kevin, I too felt betrayed by Clegg and the Liberals when they entered into their ill-fated coalition with the Conservatives.         

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

 

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...................................

Obviously, a reply with one aim in mind.

That is, to infuriate, irritate or ridicule the 48% or so of those who take part in this thread (if Naim owners are representative of the general public in this country) and who voted to remain. This seems to be a fairly typical response from some (thankfully not many) of the BREXIT supporters, who appear to be more interested in administering the odd cutting barb here and there, than in what BREXIT in its very many potential forms can mean. Very much the tack taken by Nigel Farage and his cohorts, and now 'brilliantly' refined by Donald Trump and his team in the States. Is this the way that you would like politics and political campaigning to go? We all know about bad losers, but do you not dislike bad winners just a little bit more?

I would have put down your post as the response of a political illiterate, who simply doesn't give a damn, had I not read one of your earlier posts:

"This is simply a divorce - and divorces come with a lot of emotion, trauma and a degree of adverse economic side-effect. The choice is one of continuing to live with somebody that makes you miserable or suffer the short/medium pains of a divorce in the hope that a better and more enjoyable life will eventually materialise. Given that we have decided to divorce, we should just get on it and stop dragging out the misery. The sun will still rise ...

Personally, I am agnostic about the whole thing, except that it is time we stopped talking and started doing. It is now a boring subject fit only for the media and chattering classes ..."

You are obviously neither illiterate nor completely politically illiterate, and you say that you are agnostic about the whole thing. Why is it then, that you appear to have no interest nor concern whatsoever about what actually happens during the BREXIT process, about the approach and policy decisions that the opportunistic group of people now in charge of our Government take or indeed what happens to those in our country who might be hugely adversely impacted by the approach, negotiating position and policy decisions that May appears to feel mandated to take on her own on behalf of the entire nation? Should they remain silent? Do they not deserve to have a say?

Are you truly just bored by the whole thing, in which case I would argue that you may indeed be politically illiterate, or do you simply blindly trust Theresa May and her team to do what is best for our country as a whole, or possibly, do you just not give a damn about what the 'losers' in this referendum feel so strongly about? Do you really think that Theresa May's approach is going to bring back the 'Unity' in the UK that she claims to strive for? Perhaps you genuinely feel that this was a victory or the common man in this country, and that those of us who voted to remain and are concerned by the future of our country are just the 'Liberal Elite' who needed to be brought down to earth.

You claim to be agnostic about the whole thing, and you may not have voted to leave; you may not have even voted in the referendum at all. However, are you not just a little concerned about the way that politics appears to be headed (in the UK and US at least), with the key campaigners in both campaigns, Nigel Farage in the UK referendum and Donald Trump in the US election, prepared to do whatever it takes to win the day. Those two players (and now friends and political allies) have adopted the stance that it really doesn't matter what they say or do, how blatant the lies they tell as long as their approach stirs up the worst in their supporters and garners support in its basest form to their cause. The really frightening thing (to those of us who are not completely socially agnostic at least)  is that this approach has been frighteningly effective, and has resulted in victory for what most pundits would have expected to be lost causes. It is pretty obvious to me that this approach to politics and political campaigning will now become the norm for extremists and mavericks (that really is too kind a word) such as Trump and Farage in the future.

Are you, and some of the supporters of BREXIT, not just a little concerned by this? Are you also agnostic about the result of the general election in the States and the effect that this might have on NATO, Europe and International Relations as a whole? Can there be anyone in the UK (apart from Nigel Farage) who delights in Donald Trump's success? Unfortunately, I'm sure there are quite a few.  

YNWA250505, I am anticipating the obvious response from you. Please disappoint me.         

    

Fair enough - here's the obvious response then. Feel free to be disappointed lol ...

Firstly, I'm not sure why you are irritated/infuriated/ridiculed by my boredom - but hey go ahead, its a free world (at least it is where you live) ...

Its difficult to respond coherently to such a lengthy unstructured diatribe, so I'll just put some points down for you get wound up about again;

1. We are not leaving Europe, but we are leaving the EU because Parliament agreed that the matter should be decided by the electorate. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given the metamorphosis of the Common Market into the EU and all the changes that have materialised and the amount of time that passed since the previous referendum. The issues have been aired for an (excessively) lengthy period of debate/discussion/argument prior to a referendum.  Every media channel and every political leader you can think of has weighed in. The amount of attention given to this subject far exceeds that given to any previous political event. And following all that, a majority voted to leave the EU. This is called Democracy.

2.  The premise of this thread's question is false and the question is stupid, given that the answer is so obvious. We are not sleepwalking out of the EU - we are leaving deliberately and consciously following the outcome of a lengthy and extensive democratic process.

2. The EU is an organisation/concept/idea/project that is demonstrably politically bankrupt and financially corrupt. Centralised control by unelected bureaucrats who make decisions in a secretive manner is a long discredited political system - it was called communism. The finances of the EU are notorious only for being riddled with fraud - the EU's own financial accounting body, Court of Auditors, is unable to provide the statutory declarations that are required by their own processes. It is widely documented that EU finances are riddled with fraud. It is populated by political has-beens (i.e. Kinnock, Patten, Mandelson, Ashton etc) and inadequate middle managers  (Juncker, Barroso, Van Rompey etc). If the EU were a business, it would have gone bust years ago and the board would be in jail. These are just a few of the reasons why the EU is viewed with such suspicion and has such a legitimacy problem.

3. Leaving the EU is about regaining sovereignty over our borders and judicial system, ceasing paying vast amounts to people who waste it, having control of our own systems and processes, rather than being dictated to by people we did not elect and cannot get rid of. Being in control of one's own destiny, on a personal, corporate or national level is an essential determinant in being able to succeed. Outside the EU, we will have that opportunity.

4. The Eurozone is nothing but a platform for the German economy - check the exchange rates that they all went in at. Because it is a zero sum game - big winners mean big losers - the southern Mediterranean economies are being hammered by centralised bureaucrats more concerned with rules than people. The Euro provides a prime example of one size does not fit all - but hey ho - why should Mario care? He still gets paid. Of course the bigger problem is structural flaw in the whole setup - that Monetary Union cannot succeed without Political Union. Hands up who thinks that France will concede political control to Germany, or Spain will to Italy, or Cyprus will to Malta etc etc. No hands up there then - I thought so ... because we now know that the Emperor has no clothes on.

4. I'm not sure how or why Trump and/or the US election gets mixed up in all this.

5. If the population of Scotland now have another referendum and decide to leave the Union, then so be it. That too is called democracy. I don't know what the fuss is about ...

6. Obviously there will be border controls between NI and Eire. These are different countries and border controls are essential for security. That doesn't preclude travelling to/from each country.

7. Theresa May may not be your cup of tea - but I would trust her far more than the alternatives (Corbyn or Farron in the hot seat??? - ffs!!!). Her today speech was excellent, well balanced and sets out Important issues, with objectives, clearly and coherently - and even better, she doesn't seem to be taking advice from the Naim forum!

None of the above is new or rocket-science .... all pretty obvious really - and boring.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

ynwa250505 posted:

 

 

None of the above is new or rocket-science .... all pretty obvious really - and boring.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

People use forums to discuss things that are of interest or concern to them, or to learn, and no-one else need participate, and if they disagree they can argue their point, or choose not to. Pointedly yawning at something you don't like, disagree with, or aren't interested in, whether online or in the flesh, is simply rude, bad mannered behaviour. If a thread is boring, why bother posting? indeed why bother even looking at it?

Because I can. It's called a forum!

Mind you don't hurt yourself when you fall off your horse ...

People being rude and bad mannered because they can be. Kind of anti-social behavior, like so many other things that civilised people don't do to one another.

So tell me; When did you become the arbiter of rudeness, bad manners or forum etiquette? Report me - go ahead - do it! No I didn't think you would because there is zilch wrong in anything I've said or in the way it was expressed ......

Or is it that you just don't agree with my views ands want to censor them ...

Each to their own. I have nothing more to say to you.

Hmack posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin, sorry to me Farron takes the biscuit.. true you could consider Farron and Farage  similar but opposite ends of the spectrum, but if push came to shove I would give the nod to Forage I just think he is more sincere, marmite, but sincere... sorry Cleg has lost all credibility for me, I actively switch off the radio when he comes on... I did try and analyze this recently and I think it's because I actually voted for him once.... but his almost complete capitulation and sell out to Cameron was appalling in my eyes. I need my politicians to be principled and backboned whether I agree with them or not..

 

Simon, I am genuinely astonished by this post.

I truly do not understand how any reasonable person (and you normally come across to me as a reasonable person) could even begin to consider Farron and Farage to be "similar but on opposite ends of the spectrum". 

There are many people whom I would label as 'sincere', but to many (including myself), Nigel Farage is nothing but a triumphalist buffoon with some extremely dangerous opinions, and who has met his ideal match with his new buddy, Donald Trump. I am afraid that I view both of these individuals as simply 'bad' and 'nasty' human beings whom I dislike with a passion. Extremely simplistic I know, and possibly extremely naïve, but in the end, irrespective of one's policies, that is what really matters in my view. There are some 'good' and some 'bad' people in this world, and the rest of us fall somewhere in between.  

I disagree with many of the people who are leading the opposite side of the Brexit campaign, but I don't hold May, Johnson IDS or most of the current PM's clique (with the exception of John Redwood) with anything like the degree of contempt I feel for Farage and Trump.  

I genuinely don't understand how anyone could feel as strongly as this about either Fallon or Clegg, despite the fact that like Kevin, I too felt betrayed by Clegg and the Liberals when they entered into their ill-fated coalition with the Conservatives.         

Hi Hmack, yes my point my seem strange - but both Farron and Farage claim to represent the ground away from traditional left and right wing politics. Farage claiming to represent the 'common' ordinary person, and Farron the liberal humanistic vision of equality away from traditional norms...  my words.. and therefore in the aim of wanting to claim the new middle ground away from established politics I personally see similarities... and they both seem to have polarised around the EU - and both seem to lay claim to represent swathes of the population - Farage the common person, Farron the UK youth...

I actually have respected both as politicians and I was rather impressed with Farron's inaugural speech as lib den leader... however I have not been impressed with his stance of the Brexit post referendum - as if somehow at every point trying undermine it - again my view - I think he needs to focus far more on rebuilding the lib dem party so as to gain influence if it is not to remain an irrelevance - but I have not seen much of his fine words from his inaugural speech put into plans yet... but then perhaps it is just not making headlines - and every piece of air time Farron can get he appears to have  a swipe at Brexit and to my mind - whether rightly or wrongly - in doing so he appears to be  undermining democracy. Half my family were very traditional liberals - none were very elite - and there is far more to liberalism in my opinion  than his interpretation of it of wanting to remain in the EU.

Farage's you could say is an archtypal  populist - in appealing to the so called common person with simplified messages, and possibly over simplified messages  - and yes he does polarise opinions and he seems to lead (on and off) a ramshackle party - which to me is his  main weakness, and that party seems to contain in its fringes an unhealthy collection of views -  but as a politician he has stood his ground seemingly consistently and championed his views through much hostility and derision  ... and I respect that - even though I don't agree with all he says. 

I am sure we wont't agree on the above  - and perhaps one day we met have a chat over a pint on this - as I am not the most eloquent  of writers I feel perhaps some of what I type gets possibly misunderstood.

All the best

Simon

YNWA250505 posted:

"Fair enough - here's the obvious response then. Feel free to be disappointed lol ...

Firstly, I'm not sure why you are irritated/infuriated/ridiculed by my boredom - but hey go ahead, its a free world (at least it is where you live) ...

Its difficult to respond coherently to such a lengthy unstructured diatribe, so I'll just put some points down for you get wound up about again;

1. We are not leaving Europe, but we are leaving the EU because Parliament agreed that the matter should be decided by the electorate. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given the metamorphosis of the Common Market into the EU and all the changes that have materialised and the amount of time that passed since the previous referendum. The issues have been aired for an (excessively) lengthy period of debate/discussion/argument prior to a referendum.  Every media channel and every political leader you can think of has weighed in. The amount of attention given to this subject far exceeds that given to any previous political event. And following all that, a majority voted to leave the EU. This is called Democracy.

2.  The premise of this thread's question is false and the question is stupid, given that the answer is so obvious. We are not sleepwalking out of the EU - we are leaving deliberately and consciously following the outcome of a lengthy and extensive democratic process.

2. The EU is an organisation/concept/idea/project that is demonstrably politically bankrupt and financially corrupt. Centralised control by unelected bureaucrats who make decisions in a secretive manner is a long discredited political system - it was called communism. The finances of the EU are notorious only for being riddled with fraud - the EU's own financial accounting body, Court of Auditors, is unable to provide the statutory declarations that are required by their own processes. It is widely documented that EU finances are riddled with fraud. It is populated by political has-beens (i.e. Kinnock, Patten, Mandelson, Ashton etc) and inadequate middle managers  (Juncker, Barroso, Van Rompey etc). If the EU were a business, it would have gone bust years ago and the board would be in jail. These are just a few of the reasons why the EU is viewed with such suspicion and has such a legitimacy problem.

3. Leaving the EU is about regaining sovereignty over our borders and judicial system, ceasing paying vast amounts to people who waste it, having control of our own systems and processes, rather than being dictated to by people we did not elect and cannot get rid of. Being in control of one's own destiny, on a personal, corporate or national level is an essential determinant in being able to succeed. Outside the EU, we will have that opportunity.

4. The Eurozone is nothing but a platform for the German economy - check the exchange rates that they all went in at. Because it is a zero sum game - big winners mean big losers - the southern Mediterranean economies are being hammered by centralised bureaucrats more concerned with rules than people. The Euro provides a prime example of one size does not fit all - but hey ho - why should Mario care? He still gets paid. Of course the bigger problem is structural flaw in the whole setup - that Monetary Union cannot succeed without Political Union. Hands up who thinks that France will concede political control to Germany, or Spain will to Italy, or Cyprus will to Malta etc etc. No hands up there then - I thought so ... because we now know that the Emperor has no clothes on.

4. I'm not sure how or why Trump and/or the US election gets mixed up in all this.

5. If the population of Scotland now have another referendum and decide to leave the Union, then so be it. That too is called democracy. I don't know what the fuss is about ...

6. Obviously there will be border controls between NI and Eire. These are different countries and border controls are essential for security. That doesn't preclude travelling to/from each country.

7. Theresa May may not be your cup of tea - but I would trust her far more than the alternatives (Corbyn or Farron in the hot seat??? - ffs!!!). Her today speech was excellent, well balanced and sets out Important issues, with objectives, clearly and coherently - and even better, she doesn't seem to be taking advice from the Naim forum!

None of the above is new or rocket-science .... all pretty obvious really - and boring.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN"

Yes, you have greatly disappointed me, but in this case, I am happy to have been disappointed.

Your response (or "reciprocal diatribe" if you prefer) is equally lengthy, but very well structured and containing some very powerful arguments in favour of your side of the debate. I even agree with quite a few of the points that you make. I don't remember making the claim (nor do I recall anyone else on the 'Remain' side of the debate making the claim) that the Status Quo in Europe was perfect. I'm sure we all have some sympathy for some of the points you make.

You are obviously pretty pedantic about such things, so I'll try to structure my response just a little bit better this time , but first I will make one little comment about your response. Coherent, structured and very compelling in places it might be, but it leads me to believe that you were maybe not quite the agnostic you claimed to be in your initial post. But hey, who wants to be an agnostic? Agnostics are yesterday's people. They are so boring. They have so little to say about anything, don't they?

1. Very fair and compelling argument. But then, it is a rather important political event, isn't it? Almost certainly the most important of our lifetimes.

2. I don't agree. The topic was posted on the forum long before the referendum took place, and at a time when most people (including myself) took the result for granted. Many of us in the 'Remain' camp made little effort to promote our views, and left it up to the likes of Farage and Johnson to hi-jack the debate. We did sleepwalk out of Europe.

3. (or 2 (b) from your post): Had I realised that the EU was a front for Communism, than as a nasty leftie, I would have been very much more vigorous in my support. Actually, I do agree with quite a bit of what you say, but in my opinion, you are dramatically overstating your case for effect. Where might we have seen this before? 

3, A point of view with which I don't concur, but a very valid point of view in the context of this debate. But surely not the view of an agnostic?

4. I agree that the Monetary Union is complex, and that its implementation was flawed. However, I strongly disagree with your premise that the Eurozone is nothing but a platform for the German economy. The reasons for Germany's economic strength has absolutely nothing to do with the Eurozone. Surely, you must grudgingly admit that the German economy is quite simply the strongest in Europe, full stop, even if it hurts us to have to admit it. Again, I struggle to equate your incredibly black and white and damning comments about Germany and the Eurozone with that of an agnostic.

5 (or 4b from your post): I suspect that Donald Trump and the US election gets mixed up in this thread because a) Nigel Farage was the architect and driving force behind the referendum and an exit from the EU, and b) Farage has shown his true coulours by openly endorsing Donald Trump before, during and after the US Election, and by voicing his desire to become Britain's Ambassador to the US and expressing his surprise about not being given the opportunity.

5. Fair enough. You may not care about the break up of the United Kingdom. However, I suspect that there will be many on both sides of the debate who do, and for whom the concept is neither appealing nor boring.

6. Border controls between Eire and NI would be a nightmare. Who do you envisage manning these control points? Would you volunteer, or would you be happy to see our armed forces getting involved again? Now, this is one area of argument where I sincerely hope that I am completely wrong, but I think the reintroduction of border controls between Eire and NI would be a recipe for disaster.

7. I have no issue with you at all on this one.

Who says rocket science isn't boring? Isn't it just complicated maths and physics after all?

All possibly very obvious to you, but we are about to enter a set of negotiations that will constitute one of the single most important events in our lifetime, and that will dictate the future of our children and children's children. Why should those of us who lost the referendum not have our say (after all we are 48% of those who voted), even if you feel that we have nothing to contribute, and that we should just sit back and do nothing but yawn.     

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin, sorry to me Farron takes the biscuit.. true you could consider Farron and Farage  similar but opposite ends of the spectrum, but if push came to shove I would give the nod to Forage I just think he is more sincere, marmite, but sincere... sorry Cleg has lost all credibility for me, I actively switch off the radio when he comes on... I did try and analyze this recently and I think it's because I actually voted for him once.... but his almost complete capitulation and sell out to Cameron was appalling in my eyes. I need my politicians to be principled and backboned whether I agree with them or not..

 

Simon, I am genuinely astonished by this post.

I truly do not understand how any reasonable person (and you normally come across to me as a reasonable person) could even begin to consider Farron and Farage to be "similar but on opposite ends of the spectrum". 

There are many people whom I would label as 'sincere', but to many (including myself), Nigel Farage is nothing but a triumphalist buffoon with some extremely dangerous opinions, and who has met his ideal match with his new buddy, Donald Trump. I am afraid that I view both of these individuals as simply 'bad' and 'nasty' human beings whom I dislike with a passion. Extremely simplistic I know, and possibly extremely naïve, but in the end, irrespective of one's policies, that is what really matters in my view. There are some 'good' and some 'bad' people in this world, and the rest of us fall somewhere in between.  

I disagree with many of the people who are leading the opposite side of the Brexit campaign, but I don't hold May, Johnson IDS or most of the current PM's clique (with the exception of John Redwood) with anything like the degree of contempt I feel for Farage and Trump.  

I genuinely don't understand how anyone could feel as strongly as this about either Fallon or Clegg, despite the fact that like Kevin, I too felt betrayed by Clegg and the Liberals when they entered into their ill-fated coalition with the Conservatives.         

Hi Hmack, yes my point my seem strange - but both Farron and Farage claim to represent the ground away from traditional left and right wing politics. Farage claiming to represent the 'common' ordinary person, and Farron the liberal humanistic vision of equality away from traditional norms...  my words.. and therefore in the aim of wanting to claim the new middle ground away from established politics I personally see similarities... and they both seem to have polarised around the EU - and both seem to lay claim to represent swathes of the population - Farage the common person, Farron the UK youth...

I actually have respected both as politicians and I was rather impressed with Farron's inaugural speech as lib den leader... however I have not been impressed with his stance of the Brexit post referendum - as if somehow at every point trying undermine it - again my view - I think he needs to focus far more on rebuilding the lib dem party so as to gain influence if it is not to remain an irrelevance - but I have not seen much of his fine words from his inaugural speech put into plans yet... but then perhaps it is just not making headlines - and every piece of air time Farron can get he appears to have  a swipe at Brexit and to my mind - whether rightly or wrongly - in doing so he appears to be  undermining democracy. Half my family were very traditional liberals - none were very elite - and there is far more to liberalism in my opinion  than his interpretation of it of wanting to remain in the EU.

Farage's you could say is an archtypal  populist - in appealing to the so called common person with simplified messages, and possibly over simplified messages  - and yes he does polarise opinions and he seems to lead (on and off) a ramshackle party - which to me is his  main weakness, and that party seems to contain in its fringes an unhealthy collection of views -  but as a politician he has stood his ground seemingly consistently and championed his views through much hostility and derision  ... and I respect that - even though I don't agree with all he says. 

I am sure we wont't agree on the above  - and perhaps one day we met have a chat over a pint on this - as I am not the most eloquent  of writers I feel perhaps some of what I type gets possibly misunderstood.

All the best

Simon

 

 

 

HI Simon,

One thing in your post with which I do completely disagree, is your self-deprecating comment that you are not the most eloquent of writers. Quite the opposite, from my perspective, and most of the time very much more eloquent than my own rambling scribblings.

Even if we don't agree about Brexit, I am sure that we could easily sit down and have a very friendly chat about all of this over a pint. I have a few good friends with whom I deliberately steer clear of politics, unless we are in a pub having a few drinks. If we get carried away, then that's fine. No-one will remember anything about it the next day.

Cheers   

Commendable post, Hmack.  I agree with much of the criticism of the EU, and strongly considered voting leave for reasons similar to what Kevin W said above.

I struggle with the 'that's democracy' sentiment though.  Or perhaps rather the way it's used.  The referendum result has been used to seize a democratic mandate which it didn't grant.  

The public expressed an opinion, which it would be politically pointless to treat as anything other than binding upon parliament.  Yep, that happened, I'm not contesting it.  

But people voted for many different and complex reasons.  So it's not valid to say that a majority of people voted for leaving the single market, or for essentially switching immigration off, or for whatever other single issue.  Yet the result has been treated as expressing a will for doing one set of things, rather than another.  

We could have been leaving the EU, but striking a Norway-style deal.  We could have been leaving and walking away entirely, determined to have no trade deals with the EU at all.  We could have been doing any number of other, more nuanced things.  All of these things would constitute an equally valid reflection of the public will expressed by the referendum result.

The reason we're going about leaving the way we are is that the UK is a representative democracy, rather than a direct democracy.  But there categorically is not a popular majority in favour of the specific flavour of Brexit which is being pursued.  So when some decry specific features of the actual Brexit plan, 'that's democracy' is no response at all.  Nobody, yet alone a majority of people, voted to leave the single market, the customs union, or anything like that.  The question wasn't on the ballot.

ynwa250505 posted:

 

    

Fair enough - here's the obvious response then. Feel free to be disappointed lol ...

Firstly, I'm not sure why you are irritated/infuriated/ridiculed by my boredom - but hey go ahead, its a free world (at least it is where you live) ...

I doubt if anybody is irritated/etc by your boredom. I doubt if anybody cares.

Its difficult to respond coherently to such a lengthy unstructured diatribe, so I'll just put some points down for you get wound up about again;

Again, I doubt if anybody is getting wound up about anything you say. Nor the way in which you say it. For an Agnostic, you do appear to be somewhat biased towards leaving.

1. We are not leaving Europe, but we are leaving the EU because Parliament agreed that the matter should be decided by the electorate. On that, I think most of us are agreed, even if we consider that the electorate was lied to by the Leave campaign, an issue that i'm sure you will acknowledge. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given the metamorphosis of the Common Market into the EU and all the changes that have materialised and the amount of time that passed since the previous referendum. I very much doubt if many of the electorate took all of that into account. More people were probably persauded to vote "leave" in order to secure £350m pw for the NHS. The issues have been aired for an (excessively) lengthy period of debate/discussion/argument prior to a referendum. When I started this thread only six months before the referendum, the subject had hardly been mentioned, never mind discussed. There was very little substantive discussion thereafter, just political sound-bites. Every media channel and every political leader you can think of has weighed in. The amount of attention given to this subject far exceeds that given to any previous political event. The depth of discussion has been extremely shallow and given the fact this is an issue that will affect our lives and those of our descendants for ever, I am not surprised at the frequency with which it receives air-time. And following all that, a majority voted to leave the EU. This is called Democracy.A small majority voted to leave. Democracy would would be better served if the lies were exposed and the vote re-run. Also, with such a small margin, democracy would avoid taking the direction proffered by extremists.

2.  The premise of this thread's question is false and the question is stupid, given that the answer is so obvious. At the time I started the thread, there was no real discussion. I considered it quite possible that Remain side were complacent and sleepwalking. I consider my assumption was correct. and given the We are not sleepwalking out of the EU - we are leaving deliberately and consciously following the outcome of a lengthy and extensive democratic process.I appreciate that the Government is now deliberately and consciously setting about leaving. But I don't for one minute consider we (or they) are remotely aware of the consequences of this deliberate action, nor do I consider the deliberate basis on which we propose to leave has the support of any of the Remainers nor many of the Leavers. This is not democracy. And it is not lengthy nor extensive in the way you imply.

2. The EU is an organisation/concept/idea/project that is demonstrably politically bankrupt and financially corrupt. Centralised control by unelected bureaucrats who make decisions in a secretive manner is a long discredited political system - it was called communism. You don't appear to have any concept of how the EU works nor how much the UK Government and industry could influence it. The finances of the EU are notorious only for being riddled with fraud - the EU's own financial accounting body, Court of Auditors, is unable to provide the statutory declarations that are required by their own processes. It is widely documented that EU finances are riddled with fraud. This might be true to a certain extent, but it is not unique to the EU. UK Central Government and Local Government has also been shown to be less than whiter than white. It's no justification for leaving. It is populated by political has-beens (i.e. Kinnock, Patten, Mandelson, Ashton etc) and inadequate middle managers  (Juncker, Barroso, Van Rompey etc). You forgot to mention the role of UKIP.  If the EU were a business, it would have gone bust years ago and the board would be in jail. These are just a few of the reasons why the EU is viewed with such suspicion and has such a legitimacy problem.

3. Leaving the EU is about regaining sovereignty over our borders and judicial system, ceasing paying vast amounts to people who waste it, having control of our own systems and processes, rather than being dictated to by people we did not elect and cannot get rid of. Being in control of one's own destiny, on a personal, corporate or national level is an essential determinant in being able to succeed. Outside the EU, we will have that opportunity. You have mentioned "we" in connection with a dozen issues in those three sentences. I don't anticipate even YOU will have any influence over a single item that you mentioned above. You and I will be subject in future to the whims of others at Central Government, Local Government, corporate businesses and elsewhere. And just because you can vote every four years for change, don't imagine Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot or ................please don't imagine Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot !

4. The Eurozone is nothing but a platform for the German economy - check the exchange rates that they all went in at. Because it is a zero sum game - big winners mean big losers - the southern Mediterranean economies are being hammered by centralised bureaucrats more concerned with rules than people. The Euro provides a prime example of one size does not fit all - but hey ho - why should Mario care? He still gets paid.We were never in the Euro Zone. Not sure why it seems to be such an issue for you. Of course the bigger problem is structural flaw in the whole setup - that Monetary Union cannot succeed without Political Union. Hands up who thinks that France will concede political control to Germany, or Spain will to Italy, or Cyprus will to Malta etc etc. No hands up there then - I thought so ... because we now know that the Emperor has no clothes on. We were never going to be in the future Political Union.

4. I'm not sure how or why Trump and/or the US election gets mixed up in all this. Association with Farage (UK ambassadore ?and Gove, your beloved leaders.

5. If the population of Scotland now have another referendum and decide to leave the Union, then so be it. That too is called democracy. I don't know what the fuss is about ...

6. Obviously there will be border controls between NI and Eire. These are different countries and border controls are essential for security. That doesn't preclude travelling to/from each country.

7. Theresa May may not be your cup of tea - but I would trust her far more than the alternatives (Corbyn or Farron in the hot seat??? - ffs!!!).I don't think anybody here on the Remain side is proposing Corbyn or Farron. Her today speech was excellent, well balanced and sets out Important issues, with objectives, clearly and coherently - and even better, she doesn't seem to be taking advice from the Naim forum!

None of the above is new

The orange man-child buffoon from across the pond thinks Brexit is "great". I'm not sure that would give me any comfort.

winkyincanada posted:

The orange man-child buffoon from across the pond thinks Brexit is "great". I'm not sure that would give me any comfort.

Oh it's great for him... his golf courses might make a profit as result of the exchange rate dropping for one thing!

The Chinese are commemorating Donald Trumps presidential inauguration by producing Trump-esque inflatable roosters.  

Obviously they’re taking his threat of a trade war very seriously.

A personal piss take, which casts Trump as a chicken?  That's certain to end well.  He's so thick skinned and slow to anger, after all.

Perhaps they're taking it more seriously than it might immediately seem.

Let's just hope he is not the amoral grifter he often seems to be.

So the Supreme Court rules against HMG by a majority of 8 to 3. Parliament Rules! 

OK a split decision,  so even that court was semi-undecided.  Whatever IMO its the right decision considering the gravity of brexit & will at least give the remainers a chance to have their say again.  Interesting & a smart move to avoid further points of order that they specifically ruled that Scottish, Welsh & N.I. assemblies did not need a say.   Its expected to go through both houses & still completed in time for HMG 31/3/17 deadline.

Mike-B posted:

OK a split decision,  so even that court was semi-undecided.  Whatever IMO its the right decision considering the gravity of brexit & will at least give the remainers a chance to have their say again.  Interesting & a smart move to avoid further points of order that they specifically ruled that Scottish, Welsh & N.I. assemblies did not need a say.   Its expected to go through both houses & still completed in time for HMG 31/3/17 deadline.

Don't you mean the N.I. disassembly. ��

Willy.

Mike-B posted:

OK a split decision,  so even that court was semi-undecided.  Whatever IMO its the right decision considering the gravity of brexit & will at least give the remainers a chance to have their say again.  Interesting & a smart move to avoid further points of order that they specifically ruled that Scottish, Welsh & N.I. assemblies did not need a say.   Its expected to go through both houses & still completed in time for HMG 31/3/17 deadline.

I think most people would call 6-5 a split decision. 8-3 represents a pretty conclusive majority. Lets not have another 'when is a majority not a majority' style debate, pleeeeease!!