Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Again, from the BBC website....

Nigel Farage has backed Britain introducing “extreme vetting” measures as he defended Donald Trump’s controversial travel ban.

The former Ukip leader suggested the UK Government should adopt similar border policies as he insisted the US President was “entitled” to enforce his widely criticised immigration crackdown.

Hopefully we won't be having a referendum on this as well ?

I really just don't want to be associated with anything this man has to say.

I'm sure Farage realises and uses the language deliberately, but what Trump has done isn't "extreme vetting" it's a blanket ban based on a persons nationality.

I think Farage, standing in front of "THAT" poster, had in mind a blanket ban on ALL foreigners coming into the UK. Worse still, that's what "The People" of the UK voted for. Not me ! "The People".

I no more agree with what Trump is doing at the moment, than I agree with Farage. But, Trump has identified 7 Nations (that Obama had already identified) who's citizens currently pose an unacceptable security risk to the USA and placed a temporary (c.120 day) ban on them coming to the USA, giving the USA time to organise an effective (extreme) vetting process. As I understand, it is most definitely not a ban on any particular religous group. And also not a punitive ban on nationalities that have inflicted terror within the USA in the past but which the USA considers no longer pose a significant threat to homeland security.

As I say, I don't consider this a good move overall. I think it is justified that people protest. Just as we do about Brexit !.

The people from those 7 countries were already subject to an "extreme" vetting process as I understand it.  That was the point of the list that was drawn up under Obama's regime 

Given Trump's previous statements however, I don't think he intends this as a temporary ban nor that it will be limited to just these current 7 countries*.  Despite claims, this IS an attempt to ban Muslims and anyone who cannot see that (considering Trumps previous speeches) is (in my opinion) blind or fooling themselves.  It's notable that major countries that have escaped the ban include Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - both countries which have a history or "breeding" terrorists and turning a somewhat blind eye to terrorist activities yet are also places where the Trump "empire" has significant business interests.

In addition and of not to anyone visiting USA: I'm not sure if this has been commented, but Trump's executive order also suspends Privacy Act protections for ALL non-US citizens / lawful permanent residents.

* reported in the Guardian 'When quizzed if other countries would be added to the list of seven, Spicer says: “We don’t have to look at the families of the Boston marathon, the San Bernardino, to ask if we can go further. He adds that it’s possible extra countries will be added to the list.'

Anna Soubry, the Conservative, asks Gove is he still stands by the claim that leaving the EU could save £350m a week for the NHS. Or will he accept that was a lie?

Gove says he is not in government, so he cannot decide how the money saved is spent. But he says Vote Leave said £100m a week would go to the NHS. Vote Leave also wanted extra money to go to science, and VAT on fuel to be cut.

So he's still sticking to the claim that leaving the EU will save £350 million a week when we don't spend £350 million a week on the EU?

Sickening isn't it.

But dwarfed by the fact that with the £££ now 20% down on its pre-referendum value, even £350m pw probably wouldn't be enough to sustain the NHS at its pre-referendum value in real terms, never mind enhance its value !

And if things can't get worse... May has appointed the Daily Mail's Political Editor as her communications chief advisor (not sure the official role title). Obviously a day to sneak out bad news!

On the positive, liberal news front: 1,000s of men convicted of gross indecency due to anti-homosexual laws have had their convictions quashed ... unfortunately all of them dead.  Those still alive have to apply to have their conviction quashed.

Maybe it would've helped Remain if they'd placed the GBP 4,000 odd figure on the side of a Reliant Robin; they must've been pissed off with the exposure given to Leave's number. Being outmanoeuvred still kills them.

Cheers,

OW

what would be the impact of Le Pen wining the French election and leaving the EU? The end of EU? in which perhaps Brexit becomes moot?

enjoy?

/ken

Hi Don, If you are reading this, I'm guessing your MP didn't vote the way you wanted last night. So, what now?

Best, Chris

ken c posted:

what would be the impact of Le Pen wining the French election and leaving the EU? The end of EU? in which perhaps Brexit becomes moot?

enjoy?

/ken

What's to enjoy?

Those who welcome, or even chuckle about the prospect of Le Pen winning (or coming close to winning) and upsetting the stability of the EU yet further, either do not understand who Le Pen is and what she stands for, or else they have 'outed' themselves as racists and bigots.

What will be next on their wish list, and what will their aspirations be? 

The rise of Adam Walker or David MacDonald to the fore of British politics.

Hopefully, no one in the forum genuinely feels this way, or will anyone own up to a little admiration for Le Pen or her British counterparts?

I notice that Nigel Farage has labelled Donald Tusk and the rest of the EU as "American Haters" because they do not show appropriate respect to Donald Trump.

Yep - sounds like the sort of thing Nigel would say, doesn't it. Obviously still looking to impress Donald Trump in order to gain his rightful place as Britain's Ambassador to the US. 

I wonder how he feels about Australia and Australians after last nights phone call between Trump and Malcolm Turnbull. Australians are obviously "American haters" as well. And what about Theresa May and the British Parliament. She hasn't been particularly complimentary about the Trump ban now that she is back in the UK.  

Now who (outside the US) does like Donald Trump? Ah yes, that would be Vladimir Putin, wouldn't it. What a wonderful and topsy-turvy world we live in! 

There is some footage of a fully accredited reporter, who asked Le Poo a tricky question and was bundled out of the building he and his camera man were punched and kicked by the "security" men. 

OscillateWildly posted:

Maybe it would've helped Remain if they'd placed the GBP 4,000 odd figure on the side of a Reliant Robin; they must've been pissed off with the exposure given to Leave's number. Being outmanoeuvred still kills them.

Cheers,

OW

Sorry OW,

Your point escapes me. Who are the "them" who don't like being outmanoeuvred, and what is the relevance of £4,000?

Hmack posted....

.... about the prospect of Le Pen winning (or coming close to winning) and upsetting the stability of the EU yet further, either do not understand who Le Pen is and what she stands for, or else they have 'outed' themselves as racists and bigots.

 

i am one of those who convinced themselves that Trump would never win...

enjoy your music... while you still can :-)

/ken

ken c posted:

Hmack posted....

.... about the prospect of Le Pen winning (or coming close to winning) and upsetting the stability of the EU yet further, either do not understand who Le Pen is and what she stands for, or else they have 'outed' themselves as racists and bigots.

 

i am one of those who convinced themselves that Trump would never win...

enjoy your music...

/ken

Likewise.

Le Pen winning would potentially trump even the Donald victory in respect of awfulness.

I doubt if anyone can argue against the assertion that the world has become a far nastier and more confrontational place over the past year or so.

George Orwells 'Animal Farm' re-written in America?

Hmack posted:

OscillateWildly posted:

Maybe it would've helped Remain if they'd placed the GBP 4,000 odd figure on the side of a Reliant Robin; they must've been pissed off with the exposure given to Leave's number. Being outmanoeuvred still kills them.

Cheers,

OW

Sorry OW,

Your point escapes me. Who are the "them" who don't like being outmanoeuvred, and what is the relevance of £4,000?

Them are those MPs on the Remain side continuing 350. The 4,000 odd relates to a figure put out by Remain regarding a loss of income. Both sides figures were fact checked down. Both played the exaggeration game hoping to gain more air time than the other - that is what Leave achieved.

Cheers,

OW

OscillateWildly posted:

Them are those MPs on the Remain side continuing 350. The 4,000 odd relates to a figure put out by Remain regarding a loss of income. Both sides figures were fact checked down. Both played the exaggeration game hoping to gain more air time than the other - that is what Leave achieved.

You are still wrong...

The £350million per week was fact checked and found to be a LIE.  If they had said "being  part of the EU costs us around £250million a week" that would have been true (though still ignoring the amount paid back to the U.K.)  

The £4,000 per family claim is different.  The basis of the claim was a contraction of 6% of the U.K. economy ... that was an opinion from the Treasury which was within the range suggested by other estimates.  Now to convert that to £4,300 per family was perhaps a griss simplification and lead to a misrepresentation, but not shown to be an invalid claim.

...but some people just don't understand the difference between a lie and a biased opinion when it comes to politics (and advertising).

OscillateWildly posted:

Hmack posted:

OscillateWildly posted:

Maybe it would've helped Remain if they'd placed the GBP 4,000 odd figure on the side of a Reliant Robin; they must've been pissed off with the exposure given to Leave's number. Being outmanoeuvred still kills them.

Cheers,

OW

Sorry OW,

Your point escapes me. Who are the "them" who don't like being outmanoeuvred, and what is the relevance of £4,000?

Them are those MPs on the Remain side continuing 350. The 4,000 odd relates to a figure put out by Remain regarding a loss of income. Both sides figures were fact checked down. Both played the exaggeration game hoping to gain more air time than the other - that is what Leave achieved.

Cheers,

OW

OK so now you have explained your post to me, could I ask you a question?

You obviously take some pleasure in the fact that the 'Remain' campaign was "outmanoeuvred" - "it kills them!"

Do you think it is humorous or good for politics and unity in this country that one of the most important decisions in our lifetime has been won by "outmanoeuvring" or "deceit" (by telling the bigger lies), and not by open or honest debate? Does it simply not matter to you? Your use of the word "they" to describe those who voted remain strongly implies that you were on the other side. Do you go along with the view of LTAYLOR who wrote:

"can't tell you how delighted it makes me to see all your wailing and gnashing of teeth at the outcome of the EU referendum. Please feel free to carry on. We "Little Englanders" and "Closet racists" are getting plenty of free entertainment at your discomfiture. You might need your safe space tonight given the motion to trigger Article 50 passed 498 votes for to 114 against. Isn't democracy great"?

Hmack posted:

OscillateWildly posted:

Hmack posted:

OscillateWildly posted:

Maybe it would've helped Remain if they'd placed the GBP 4,000 odd figure on the side of a Reliant Robin; they must've been pissed off with the exposure given to Leave's number. Being outmanoeuvred still kills them.

Cheers,

OW

Sorry OW,

Your point escapes me. Who are the "them" who don't like being outmanoeuvred, and what is the relevance of £4,000?

Them are those MPs on the Remain side continuing 350. The 4,000 odd relates to a figure put out by Remain regarding a loss of income. Both sides figures were fact checked down. Both played the exaggeration game hoping to gain more air time than the other - that is what Leave achieved.

Cheers,

OW

OK so now you have explained your post to me, could I ask you a question?

You obviously take some pleasure in the fact that the 'Remain' campaign was "outmanoeuvred" - "it kills them!"

Do you think it is humorous or good for politics and unity in this country that one of the most important decisions in our lifetime has been won by "outmanoeuvring" or "deceit" (by telling the bigger lies), and not by open or honest debate? Does it simply not matter to you? Your use of the word "they" to describe those who voted remain strongly implies that you were on the other side. Do you go along with the view of LTAYLOR who wrote:

"can't tell you how delighted it makes me to see all your wailing and gnashing of teeth at the outcome of the EU referendum. Please feel free to carry on. We "Little Englanders" and "Closet racists" are getting plenty of free entertainment at your discomfiture. You might need your safe space tonight given the motion to trigger Article 50 passed 498 votes for to 114 against. Isn't democracy great"?

Wrong. I think it sad that people I thought were adults are having meltdowns, running around screaming like an extra from The Blob, and behaving in a manner they decry.

In the main, I found both sides and the media to be poor. I also find it disappointing the bus is used as the reason the referendum was won / lost,  there are many.

My use of Remain refers to MPs and campaigners, and my use of they is to not repeat Remain. I voted Leave.

Yes it matters to me, though The Book Of Nick Clegg probably states otherwise. After all, it holds that a different view on the best for the future isn't a difference of opinion, it is a sign the person is too thick to know what they are doing and they clearly don't care for others.

L Taylor; I wouldn't call the behaviour delightful or entertaining, just daft.

Cheers,

OW

OscillateWildly posted:

In the main, I found both sides and the media to be poor. I also find it disappointing the bus is used as the reason the referendum was won / lost,  there are many.

Sorry you're right ... Farage's racist anti-immigration posters and the lies about Turkey being "about to join the EU" played a part too.

But ignore all that ... assuming people's issues are valid, and they extend beyond a xenophobic, racists attitude towards immigrants then what does the future outside the EU hold to improve those issues?  What can be done to correct the inequality in the country that couldn't be done before?

I agree with you both sides were very poor.  The remain side failed to either address people's issues nor promote what the benefits of being in the EU were; only wildly claim what doom would occur if we left (which still may come to pass but persuaded nobody).  Given the eventual debate; David Cameron's goverment basically spent 6 years promoting the case to leave!

Hmack posted:

I notice that Nigel Farage has labelled Donald Tusk and the rest of the EU as "American Haters" because they do not show appropriate respect to Donald Trump.

Just to confirm my Guardian reading credentials... this is funny (to me)...

Eloise posted:

Just to confirm my Guardian reading credentials... this is funny (to me)...

 

I don't agree with you much on this particular subject Eloise, but I'm with you on this one - this is hilarious!

Farage is one of the most sleazy chancers ever to have darkened the door of British politics - worse than Gove, Johnson, Clegg, IDS, Farron, Osborne and Galloway combined. To compound the issue, he constantly seems to be on the telly and in the newspapers, peddling his "I'm a man of the people" schtick.

Can't we farm him off to the states and a minor post within his big buddy Trump's cabinet of misfits?

With Trump, I think I would be embarrassed to be an American. With Farage, I am embarrassed to be British.

Mind you, with football holligans, lager louts and Brexit campaign (both sides of) I have been getting quite used to being embarrassed to be British in recent years.

I think we should create a new position in government for Farage - the UK's ambassador to ISIS.  

Like your thinking MDS. However I'm not sure even ISIS would want Farage. Perhaps we can give him a government grant to go and open a pub and strip club next door to the Great Mosque in Mecca?

It might not work out -he could end up making a fortune!

Christopher_M posted:

Hi Don, If you are reading this, I'm guessing your MP didn't vote the way you wanted last night. So, what now?

Best, Chris

I have a meeting arranged with him on 2nd March.

Eloise posted:

OscillateWildly posted:

Them are those MPs on the Remain side continuing 350. The 4,000 odd relates to a figure put out by Remain regarding a loss of income. Both sides figures were fact checked down. Both played the exaggeration game hoping to gain more air time than the other - that is what Leave achieved.

You are still wrong...

The £350million per week was fact checked and found to be a LIE.  If they had said "being  part of the EU costs us around £250million a week" that would have been true (though still ignoring the amount paid back to the U.K.)  

The £4,000 per family claim is different.  The basis of the claim was a contraction of 6% of the U.K. economy ... that was an opinion from the Treasury which was within the range suggested by other estimates.  Now to convert that to £4,300 per family was perhaps a griss simplification and lead to a misrepresentation, but not shown to be an invalid claim.

...but some people just don't understand the difference between a lie and a biased opinion when it comes to politics (and advertising).

Sorry, missed the post scrolling down.

I see both as having the same intention.

Some people are prepared to give free rides when it suits.

Cheers,

OW