Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

How does that song go now? Oh yes...

"You can leave your hat on"

Great speech by Mr Blair today. Where does the common sense and centre ground of politics hide these days? Labour are unelectable and not a credible opposition. Tories are persuing an unachievable ideological view of Britain in the modern world. What they might actually inadvertently achieve is the break up of UK and its diminished standing in the world. The leavers won the referendum because of immigration, a protest vote by the less fortunate forgotten in our society, and the failure of the EU to address these concerns.

We need a centre ground.

It's a shame it's Tony Blair that's come galloping up on his white horse to save up from the evil Barons of Brexit. He must be one of the most unpopular politicians of this age, perhaps this is a redeeming act for his ill-gotten crusading years.

But it must be said, his speech does contain a lot of sense, and a chink of light in these days of darkness....

Ironically, by and large, I was a big supporter of Tony as labour leader but on this occasion I think he has not only got it wrong but also come across as a little arrogant and patronising. 

He's probably convinced a few 'on the fence' voters over the the brexit camp.   Well done Tony.

Dear Tony

You failed to make a good enough argument for Remain during the referendum, although I must confess I don't recall you being terribly visible. Perhaps you had better paid alternative engagements? Anyway your side (mine too actually) lost the vote. It was dirty, ill tempered and badly informed but hey, that's democracy. I might point out that unfettered immigration under your watch was a significant factor in the result. Anyway, it is done. The people are not going to rise up against Brexit at your bidding as you suggest.

As ever you believe you know best, and we just need to be shown the error of our ways. Just like Iraq. We all know how well that went.

Now go and slither back under your (gilded) stone and ponder the multiple errors of your ways. I'd suggest going back to the Middle east but sadly they also proved immune to your genius. I believe you are not welcome any more.

You are yesterday. Absence has not made the heart fonder.

Bruce (not a fan)

Like Halloween Man, I thought Blair spoke a lot of sense. I know he tends to divide opinion sharply over the Iraq issue but I must say hearing him speak again, and then engaging in a Q&A with the audience, it reminded me of his power to communicate and persuade. The gap to today's Labour leadership is enormous. The PM must be mighty grateful that she is facing Corbyn across the despatch box and not Blair.

All that said, while I thought his arguments were cogent, I just can't see how 'the people are going to be able to change their mind'.   Even if many people who voted Brexit come to regret their decision when they see what Brexit entails, I can't see any process by which that regret could reverse the decision. Much as I think Brexit is the wrong decision, the UK is now committed to it and the challenge is to achieve it in the least painful way possible. 

If Parliament was minded there would be nothing to stop them, and nothing wrong in so doing, saying to the British public that all the information etc etc that has come to light since the referendum suggests that there was a lot of erroneous assumptions and estimates and eggagerations made in the lead up to it, and it may be tbat people voted on the basis of incorrect info, therefore give the people an opportunity to reaffirm or reverse the decision to leave by having a confirmatory referendum.

Parliament could but I can't see the circumstances in which it would.

'his power to communicate and persuade'

I cannot resist my favourite comment on Blair.  I also totally agree re your comment about PMQ's though-he was real pro.

Love, like, or loathe Blair, he made some very valid points.

Did he make them at the time of the Referendum? Perhaps we needed his powers of communication and persuasion then?

Yes I actually agree with some of his arguments but it is gone now, it is done. I just don't believe it will be overturned. His intervention is just typically patronising. 'if only you knew what I know you'd agree with me'.

I say this as a passionate Remainer by the way.

I must stop now, Blair drives me up the wall like no other politician. At least Trump is honest about what he thinks, and what he does!

Bruce

Blair expressed his opinions very clearly before and after the referendum, you cannot fault him for that.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I must stop now, Blair drives me up the wall like no other politician. At least Trump is honest about what he thinks, and what he does!

Bruce

Trump is honest ?

You get what you see is what I meant. Sort of. With Blair you just get slipperiness.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

You get what you see is what I meant. Sort of. With Blair you just get slipperiness.

That "at least Trump is honest" quote will be one I'm going to use in the future to beat you over and over the head and body! Oh Bruce, Bruce, Bruce.

Cheers from the Republic of California

dayjay posted:

Ironically, by and large, I was a big supporter of Tony as labour leader but on this occasion I think he has not only got it wrong but also come across as a little arrogant and patronising. 

Nothing new there then!

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

I agree.  Well done to Tony Blair, for saying what he did, today.  

IMO, the 'Brexit' Referendum should have been based on needing a 2/3rds majority - not just a simple majority.  But Cameron made it easier.

The more the Brexiteers whine & howl about their 'majority' or the 'will of the people' or any opposition being 'un-democratic', the less respect I have for any of them. They should, IMO, have been honest and admit they only got a small majority in favour, and accept that. Not slap each other on the back, for a great victory.

Mind you, Trump has shown us that 'facts' can be ignored, if you don't like them. Another small majority there, too.....

Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

Marksnaim posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

FFS, this bone's been gnawed so much there can't be much left. Have none of you got lives to live or music to listen to?

naim_nymph posted:

Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

You lost, its time to move on with your life. Insulting 17.410,742 people pretty much sums up why the remain camp lost. Such breathtaking arrogance. If you think wheeling out a chancer like Tony Blair is going to convince people to change their minds you really are delusional. I think you will find the input of this shyster will put a hell of a lot more people into the leave camp. In some ways I would like to see a rerun. That way you can have an even bigger loss and even more butthurt, but I suspect if the margin were 10% you would still be whining about how unfair it all is.

Plenty of alternative facts still in use on here I see.