Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Dear HMACK,

I would never have guessed that you were left-leaning! 

I bet you think that I am an archetypal Tory! I leave you guessing on that. 

When the electorate are apathetic - or more accurately don’t think that it is valuable to caste a vote, which in my view is a different thing - it indicates to me that the result either way is not all that important, however much some people may consider it vital. Of course those who do consider it vital would usually vote. As a matter of course I vote at every opportunity, but that is also a personal response. 

ATB from George

George posted:

"I bet you think that I am an archetypal Tory! I leave you guessing on that"

Dear George,

Not at all! You come across in your many posts as far too nice and reasoned a person to fall into that category.

I blame my own political leanings on the fact that I am old enough to have been a teenager when 'Citizen Smith' was one of the more popular sitcoms.  

Robert Lindsay is largely to blame.

Clive B posted:

I attended this address by Sir Stephen Wall at Bristol UWE on 20 January. Although he's very much pro-EU, his presentation was most informative. The subject was 'Why do we British find the EU so hard to swallow?'. I recommend anyone who wishes to gain a more informed view to listen to it on replay. I'm quite Eurosceptic but this has made me think.

http://www1.uwe.ac.uk/whatson/.../sirstephenwall.aspx

An excellent lecture. Sir Stephen sets out a very cogent argument about the UK's place in the EU and what we get out of it.  I was also struck at his assessment of what is involved in an exit, which sounds like an administrative nightmare and a hugely expensive in terms of the capacity that it would drain from government over at least two years.    

MDS posted:

Clive B posted:

I attended this address by Sir Stephen Wall at Bristol UWE on 20 January. Although he's very much pro-EU, his presentation was most informative. The subject was 'Why do we British find the EU so hard to swallow?'. I recommend anyone who wishes to gain a more informed view to listen to it on replay. I'm quite Eurosceptic but this has made me think.

http://www1.uwe.ac.uk/whatson/.../sirstephenwall.aspx

An excellent lecture. Sir Stephen sets out a very cogent argument about the UK's place in the EU and what we get out of it.  I was also struck at his assessment of what is involved in an exit, which sounds like an administrative nightmare and a hugely expensive in terms of the capacity that it would drain from government over at least two years.    

+1, the talk was very interesting.

Now that Boris has joined the "Out" campaign that's it. We might as well make plans now for life outside the EU.

And the EU should start making plans for life without the UK, starting with.....................

.................What will be the OFFICIAL language of the EU.................

Let the French start squabbling.....................

Seems to me all Boris is interested in is Boris. I don't think he'll add anything to the anti-EU mob, just his usual bluster.

A No 10 spokesman said: “Our message to everyone is we want Britain to have the best of both worlds: all the advantages of the jobs and investment that come with being in the EU, without the downsides of being in the euro and open borders.”

I think that says it all. What do you call that philosophy? Cynicism? Simply getting a free ride? You're absolutely right, Don, it's probably better if Britain is out.

The French won't start squabbling about the language, Don. In fact, it's a pointless comment.

Once Britain is out, the good citizens of Calais might breathe, for a start.

Tonym posted:

"Seems to me all Boris is interested in is Boris. I don't think he'll add anything to the anti-EU mob, just his usual bluster"

I completely agree. My fervent hope is that outside London he will become a liability rather than an asset for the 'Exit' campaign. Given his previous views on Europe, Boris's decision was obviously taken on the basis that this was his best option for personal advancement.

When I was a schoolboy, my ambition was to become a professional footballer or a pilot. Sadly, I failed on both counts. Apparently, at a similar age, Boris's ambition was to be "King of the World"!  

Surely, the 'Great British Public' won't be daft enough to let Boris take over the reigns as PM of our country. I am not a big Cameron fan, but at least he bears some resemblance to a serious politician.

And surely, there are enough sensible Americans out there to ensure that neither Donald Trump nor Ted Cruze get anywhere near the White House.

Unfortunately, Putin appears to be safely entrenched in Russia. 

George,

I still have faith that the "Great British Public" will see sense and vote to remain in the EU. 

Frenchnaim,

I am afraid that would mean that you would have to put up with us for a little longer.

The EU referendum campaign is now inextricably woven with the Tory leadership contest.

Boris has weighed it up and thinks Brexit will win-and this is his bid for leadership. It is a gamble for him, and I hope he loses both on his own account and for the sake of our ongoing EU membership. The flipside is that Osborne will be the new leader/PM.

Corbyn has a role to play here too-can he bite back the bile and make his party campaign for Europe and stand with Cameron?  

Bruce

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

The EU referendum campaign is now inextricably woven with the Tory leadership contest.

Boris has weighed it up and thinks Brexit will win-and this is his bid for leadership. It is a gamble for him, and I hope he loses both on his own account and for the sake of our ongoing EU membership. The flipside is that Osborne will be the new leader/PM.

Corbyn has a role to play here too-can he bite back the bile and make his party campaign for Europe and stand with Cameron?   

tonym posted:

Seems to me all Boris is interested in is Boris. 

Nail, head, bang! 

"Great British Public" will likely either not bother or be swayed by the twaddle spewing out of the media.

So that's an "out" vote then.

Shame.

Moving on......

Frenchnaim posted:

A No 10 spokesman said: “Our message to everyone is we want Britain to have the best of both worlds: all the advantages of the jobs and investment that come with being in the EU, without the downsides of being in the euro and open borders.”

I think that says it all. What do you call that philosophy? Cynicism? Simply getting a free ride? You're absolutely right, Don, it's probably better if Britain is out.

The French won't start squabbling about the language, Don. In fact, it's a pointless comment.

Once Britain is out, the good citizens of Calais might breathe, for a start.

 

I wouldn't bank on it !

tonym posted:

Seems to me all Boris is interested in is Boris. I don't think he'll add anything to the anti-EU mob, just his usual bluster.

 

For certain he has made his decision based on what's best for himself. I doubt if he is the only politician in that situation.

How his decision will affect the end result, I don't know. It's possible the "In" campaign will now put more effort into their campaign and secure a "Stay" result ?

Mike-B posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

The EU referendum campaign is now inextricably woven with the Tory leadership contest.

Boris has weighed it up and thinks Brexit will win-and this is his bid for leadership. It is a gamble for him, and I hope he loses both on his own account and for the sake of our ongoing EU membership. The flipside is that Osborne will be the new leader/PM.

Corbyn has a role to play here too-can he bite back the bile and make his party campaign for Europe and stand with Cameron?   

I doubt it,  & my guess is standing side by side will be equally abhorrent for both.

Problem after all this is we will be left with a split tory party & an unelectable Corbyn party to get sorted out before 7 May 2020  .

I see the only future for labour is to let the current set up to run its course & then look for someone outside this group such as Chuka Umunna 

It will take a real leader to heal the tories & I don't see where that person is coming from.  That said don't underestimate Boris,  he comes over as a buffoon & a bit too much Eaton for the average voter.  But when he was my MP,  & then as London mayor,  he does not put up with bureaucratic barriers, kicks the BS aside & gets things done.

Whatever,  thats for the future,  we still have 23 June to get through

 

With an "Out of Europe" result, followed by a Scottich "Out of the UK" vote, the Conservatives would find themselves in Government in England/Wales/NI for the next 75 years..................

...........or am I being too pesemistic ?

How does Boris play in the Shires generally I wonder?

Seen from afar I personally find him very much a London character-and could not see him as a national Tory leader. Or is it just me?

Don Atkinson posted:  With an "Out of Europe" result, followed by a Scottich "Out of the UK" vote, the Conservatives would find themselves in Government in England/Wales/NI for the next 75 years..................   ...........or am I being too pessimistic ?

And ..........  surely sometime soon the US must see through that buffoon - mustn't they  (?)     

Don Atkinson posted: 

With an "Out of Europe" result, followed by a Scottich "Out of the UK" vote, the Conservatives would find themselves in Government in England/Wales/NI for the next 75 years..................

...........or am I being too pesemistic ?

I'm breaking my own rule (no politics in HiFi Forums) ... but if it kept the Conservatives out of power for 75 years it (loosing Scotland and leaving Europe) might just be a sacrifice worth making...   :-)

If the result of the referendum is to stay in the EU, i.e. Boris's arguments are rejected, I wonder if he will resign his various positions? That would be the honourable thing to do. After all, it's difficult to see how Cameron could do anything other than resign if the referendum goes against him.

MDS posted:

If the result of the referendum is to stay in the EU, i.e. Boris's arguments are rejected, I wonder if he will resign his various positions? That would be the honourable thing to do. After all, it's difficult to see how Cameron could do anything other than resign if the referendum goes against him.

Its commented that Boris far from being a baboon is actually playing this very cleverly ... if the result is to stay in EU: Boris can appeal to the Eurosceptics that he supported them while arguing that he was never really saying "out of Europe" just that UK needs to negotiate further; if however the result is to leave EU: then Boris can trumpet how he was on the winning side, yet offer olive branch to the Europhiles for similar reason.

You could well be right, Eloise. I wouldn't put that cynicism beyond him.

Mike

I don't believe a leave vote  necessarily means out, It more likely means negotiation round two. Cameron could go back to the EU in a far more powerful position and come back with another stronger deal and push for another referendum. Not sure how constitutional that is but I'm sure there will be those who will find the right weasel words to massage the legality of it.

Ken

I disagree, Ken. A vote for out means out. There will be no going back to the negotiating table to seek more concessions.  A number of knowledgeable commentators have made that clear. Those tempted to vote 'no' with the underlying motive of really wanting to stay in but on better terms need to be disabused of this tactic.  

Mike

If the vote is for out, then I doubt that major powers in the EU would be even remotely interested in allowing the UK even the concessions that the PM has extracted already, potentially loosing a much goodwill already, without adding insult to injury. You do not commence the filing for divorce before proposing the second time! 

If the UK leaves only pragmatism will prevent the EU from being rather difficult towards us ... And unfortunately this will be the case whether we leave or stay. This is no child’s game. It is deadly earnest.

Keeping goodwill is crucial and much damage has probably been done already.

ATB from George

MDS posted:

I disagree, Ken. A vote for out means out. There will be no going back to the negotiating table to seek more concessions.  A number of knowledgeable commentators have made that clear. Those tempted to vote 'no' with the underlying motive of really wanting to stay in but on better terms need to be disabused of this tactic.  

Mike

I agree Mike,

Cameron has made it clear today that "Out" means out. Not re-negotiation.

And he effectively accused Boris of wrongly peddling the notion that "Out" might mean re-negotiation.

Best to vote on the basis that this is the one-and-only in/out referendum, especially if you want to remain "In"