Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

What's going on in Sweden, has Nils Bildt been at it again? Oh no hang on, he's not there, is he?

Daftness aside, seriously, what is going on there, Andarkian?

Eloise posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm a bit short sighted, so perhaps you could explain. What exactly is coming next? 

Lots of crap flat pack furniture with silly names and cheese with holes!

I thought the cheese with holes came from Switzerland?

Not all holey cheese comes from Switzerland, Eloise.  In fact, just last saturday I accompanied a friend to the Caledonian Club and had a wonderful holey cheese by the name of Mayfield.  It's made by Cheesemakers Alsop & Walker in East Sussex.  According their website, "Mayfield won Gold with three stars at the Great Taste Awards, a Gold at the 2010 British Cheese Awards and another Gold Medal the 2011 World Cheese awards."  All I can add to that is that I thought it tasted quite delicious.

Why would the Caledonian club serve dodgy English cheese? Holey or not. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm a bit short sighted, so perhaps you could explain. What exactly is coming next? 

Nothing. This whole situation happening throughout the world in the past few years is because an alien overlord god is hacking into our universe hologram - playing us like mice in a maze. Once we crack Quantumness normality will resume.

Right on chaps! The Grenade attack in the Lindangen suburb of Malmo did not happen on Monday evening and no one was injured by the shrapnel. I guess one of those Ikea flat packs just blew itself up! 

Plenty more like that if you were not too busy searching for hilarious cartoons of Maggie Thatcher sticking a gun in her mouth, which is of course okay because she is dead and is perceived as having been right of wing, unlike you achingly right on dripping wet melting Snowflakes who have a divine right to use any and all means of vilification for those that don't follow the one true left wing doctrine. 

Oh, and we are still on our way out of the EU. 

andarkian posted:

Right on chaps! The Grenade attack in the Lindangen suburb of Malmo did not happen on Monday evening and no one was injured by the shrapnel. I guess one of those Ikea flat packs just blew itself up! 

Plenty more like that if you were not too busy searching for hilarious cartoons ofMaggie Thatcher sticking a gun in her mouth, which is of course okay because she is dead and is perceived as having been right of wing, unlike you achingly right on dripping wet melting Snowflakes who have a divine right to use any and all means of vilification for those that don't follow the one true left wing doctrine. 

Oh, and we are still on our way out of the EU. 

Personally I thought the likeness was more Theresa May rather than Maggie Thatcher, but then what do I know, i'm just a remainer.

I was going to say that, but my typing finger was aching. Then I melted.

TOBYJUG posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm a bit short sighted, so perhaps you could explain. What exactly is coming next? 

Nothing. This whole situation happening throughout the world in the past few years is because an alien overlord god is hacking into our universe hologram - playing us like mice in a maze. Once we crack Quantumness normality will resume.

Oh thank goodness.  I was worried for a moment there.

As we are on the set of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, at least we know the answer to Life, the Universe & Everything is 42.  Of course.

Phew!  FT

And speaking of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I'm reminded of the aliens who decided to invade earth only to make a disastrous error in sense of scale and when they landed in a park their whole invasion fleet was swallowed by a small dog.  I do hope HMG isn't over-estimating the size of the UK's import and export market relative to the big players like the USA, China and the rest of the EU.  We wouldn't want to overplay our importance now would we?   

Hungryhalibut posted:

Why would the Caledonian club serve dodgy English cheese? Holey or not. 

HH, the cheese was I believe a gift to the club from one of the attendees of the evening's event (who owns and runs Alsop & Walker).

I'm not sure how you have decided it was "dodgy" - quite the opposite I'm assured, and in fact I was impressed enough that I intend to go and visit their dairy, as it's not so far from me.  Otherwise I think they have a stall at Borough Market in London.  I get the impression you perhaps don't much go for English cheese?

Richard Dane posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Why would the Caledonian club serve dodgy English cheese? Holey or not. 

HH, the cheese was I believe a gift to the club from one of the attendees of the evening's event (who owns and runs Alsop & Walker).

I'm not sure how you have decided it was "dodgy" - quite the opposite I'm assured, and in fact I was impressed enough that I intend to go and visit their dairy, as it's not so far from me.  Otherwise I think they have a stall at Borough Market in London.  I get the impression you perhaps don't much go for English cheese?

Reason enough for some to "Remain"..............especially Scotland if they don't have a decent home-made cheese ? (I can already hear Hmack preparing to educate us otherwise.....)

Tediously on topic, perhaps, but apparently their lordships have just defeated the govt on the A50 bill, saying it needs to be amended to make sure EU citizens can stay here.

Will be interesting to see how the govt responds.

My guess is they will send it back to the Lords, un-amended until the Lords agree. I think the Lords only get two readings of a bill before they HAVE to accept it ? TM wants to hold out until she gets a reciprocal agreement from the EU.

I think she is sending the wrong message to the EU, the Lords are suggesting Trust and Friendship IMHO. I don't see too much of this within the UK Brexit Team. Hopefully I am wrong.

So Brexit is 'Latin-American populism" according to Greenspan.  The Brexiteers have rubbished Blair and Major's views on the subject.  I wonder if Greenspan's will fair any better. After all, what does he know about economics? (sic).

Don Atkinson posted:

My guess is they will send it back to the Lords, un-amended until the Lords agree. I think the Lords only get two readings of a bill before they HAVE to accept it ? TM wants to hold out until she gets a reciprocal agreement from the EU.

I think she is sending the wrong message to the EU, the Lords are suggesting Trust and Friendship IMHO. I don't see too much of this within the UK Brexit Team. Hopefully I am wrong.

Don.  I agree on the substance and believe we should be unilaterally making this commitment out of trust and friendship but the difficulty the PM has is the parliamentary timetable.  If she wants to use the Commons to defeat the Lords' amendment there's a good chance that she will have to sacrifice her target date of tabling Art 50 by 31st March.  My guess is she values sticking to her timetable over and above the amendment.  

MDS posted:

So Brexit is 'Latin-American populism" according to Greenspan.  The Brexiteers have rubbished Blair and Major's views on the subject.  I wonder if Greenspan's will fair any better. After all, what does he know about economics? (sic).

Well, as our very own Greenspan, Mark Carney, has seen the errors of his own ways since his prophecies of doom and gloom pre-Referendum, I would give Greenspan's effort even less credence than Obama's back of the line threat. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...uk-mark-carney-says/

andarkian posted:

MDS posted:

So Brexit is 'Latin-American populism" according to Greenspan.  The Brexiteers have rubbished Blair and Major's views on the subject.  I wonder if Greenspan's will fair any better. After all, what does he know about economics? (sic).

Well, as our very own Greenspan, Mark Carney, has seen the errors of his own ways since his prophecies of doom and gloom pre-Referendum, I would give Greenspan's effort even less credence than Obama's back of the line threat. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...uk-mark-carney-says/

An unsurprising response. After all, as Gove said during the campaign, 'we've had enough of experts' haven't we?

andarkian posted:

MDS posted:

So Brexit is 'Latin-American populism" according to Greenspan.  The Brexiteers have rubbished Blair and Major's views on the subject.  I wonder if Greenspan's will fair any better. After all, what does he know about economics? (sic).

Well, as our very own Greenspan, Mark Carney, has seen the errors of his own ways since his prophecies of doom and gloom pre-Referendum, I would give Greenspan's effort even less credence than Obama's back of the line threat. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...uk-mark-carney-says/

Well his comments were a little more qualified than that...

Eloise posted:

andarkian posted:

MDS posted:

So Brexit is 'Latin-American populism" according to Greenspan.  The Brexiteers have rubbished Blair and Major's views on the subject.  I wonder if Greenspan's will fair any better. After all, what does he know about economics? (sic).

Well, as our very own Greenspan, Mark Carney, has seen the errors of his own ways since his prophecies of doom and gloom pre-Referendum, I would give Greenspan's effort even less credence than Obama's back of the line threat. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...uk-mark-carney-says/

Well his comments were a little more qualified than that...

Measured and very cautious as you would expect from a Canadian and a man in his position. But, for Carney, it was almost volte face.

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

My guess is they will send it back to the Lords, un-amended until the Lords agree. I think the Lords only get two readings of a bill before they HAVE to accept it ? TM wants to hold out until she gets a reciprocal agreement from the EU.

I think she is sending the wrong message to the EU, the Lords are suggesting Trust and Friendship IMHO. I don't see too much of this within the UK Brexit Team. Hopefully I am wrong.

Don.  I agree on the substance and believe we should be unilaterally making this commitment out of trust and friendship but the difficulty the PM has is the parliamentary timetable.  If she wants to use the Commons to defeat the Lords' amendment there's a good chance that she will have to sacrifice her target date of tabling Art 50 by 31st March.  My guess is she values sticking to her timetable over and above the amendment.  

What infuriates me the most about all this is she could have said in November: "Okay we accept the decision of the High Court" and started the parliamentary debate then.  

But no the debate and bill had to be rushed because the case was appealed further and so the (self imposed) deadline means that the whole things is rushed.

After the June 23rd referendum there should have been time for reflection instead there was panic!

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

My guess is they will send it back to the Lords, un-amended until the Lords agree. I think the Lords only get two readings of a bill before they HAVE to accept it ? TM wants to hold out until she gets a reciprocal agreement from the EU.

I think she is sending the wrong message to the EU, the Lords are suggesting Trust and Friendship IMHO. I don't see too much of this within the UK Brexit Team. Hopefully I am wrong.

Don.  I agree on the substance and believe we should be unilaterally making this commitment out of trust and friendship but the difficulty the PM has is the parliamentary timetable.  If she wants to use the Commons to defeat the Lords' amendment there's a good chance that she will have to sacrifice her target date of tabling Art 50 by 31st March.  My guess is she values sticking to her timetable over and above the amendment.  

What infuriates me the most about all this is she could have said in November: "Okay we accept the decision of the High Court" and started the parliamentary debate then.  

But no the debate and bill had to be rushed because the case was appealed further and so the (self imposed) deadline means that the whole things is rushed.

After the June 23rd referendum there should have been time for reflection instead there was panic!

I agree, Eloise. This indecent rush seems entirely of HMG's own making. One day the legal advice that ministers received on the High Court judgement  will become public (I suspect there have already been FoI requests made for it) and that will likely reveal that ministers were told the chances of overturning the judgement at the Supreme Court were low and the likely constricting impact on the timetable for submitting Art 50 if an appeal was lodged.

So the House of Lords has agreed another amendment to the bill on Art 50, which the government has already stated it will seek to overturn when the bill returns to the House of Commons.

Now let me see if I understand this and can express it in layman's terms: 

The House of Lords has said [to the House of Commons]: 'We think the vote you should have on the Brexit deal should be meaningful'. 

The government is hoping that the House of Commons will say in response: 'No, no, no. While we want to have a vote, we certainly don't want that vote to be meaningful!'

I wonder how MPs will reconcile the logic of that? 

MDS posted:

So the House of Lords has agreed another amendment to the bill on Art 50, which the government has already stated it will seek to overturn when the bill returns to the House of Commons.

Now let me see if I understand this and can express it in layman's terms: 

The House of Lords has said [to the House of Commons]: 'We think the vote you should have on the Brexit deal should be meaningful'. 

The government is hoping that the House of Commons will say in response: 'No, no, no. While we want to have a vote, we certainly don't want that vote to be meaningful!'

I wonder how MPs will reconcile the logic of that? 

I wonder if the Lord's ammendments might invigorate some of Ken Clarke's colleagues to join him in descending against the government...

MDS posted:

So the House of Lords has agreed another amendment to the bill on Art 50, which the government has already stated it will seek to overturn when the bill returns to the House of Commons.

Now let me see if I understand this and can express it in layman's terms: 

The House of Lords has said [to the House of Commons]: 'We think the vote you should have on the Brexit deal should be meaningful'. 

The government is hoping that the House of Commons will say in response: 'No, no, no. While we want to have a vote, we certainly don't want that vote to be meaningful!'

I wonder how MPs will reconcile the logic of that? 

The PEOPLE want Brexit, Who are we (the mere House of Commons) to deny them their demands and who are you (the house of Lords) to ask us to think about these things !

We're in a mess. Deal, or no-Deal, sense or nonsense, we are determined to Leave. Why ? nobody has a clue !

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

So the House of Lords has agreed another amendment to the bill on Art 50, which the government has already stated it will seek to overturn when the bill returns to the House of Commons.

Now let me see if I understand this and can express it in layman's terms: 

The House of Lords has said [to the House of Commons]: 'We think the vote you should have on the Brexit deal should be meaningful'. 

The government is hoping that the House of Commons will say in response: 'No, no, no. While we want to have a vote, we certainly don't want that vote to be meaningful!'

I wonder how MPs will reconcile the logic of that? 

I wonder if the Lord's ammendments might invigorate some of Ken Clarke's colleagues to join him in descending against the government...

I wouldn't be surprised