Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

May is showing herself as something of a despot. This and the truly crazy selective grammar school policy, which virtually no education professional supports, seem to show a real tunnel vision. Perhaps holding hands with Trump has caused lasting damage.

Hungryhalibut posted:

May is showing herself as something of a despot. This and the truly crazy selective grammar school policy, which virtually no education professional supports, seem to show a real tunnel vision. Perhaps holding hands with Trump has caused lasting damage.

.....to whom, Trump ?

Ah dear, the squeaks of the righteous wronged by the democratic will of the people, exemplified by the furious fossils in the HoL is not only irritating but deserving of future payback. Tebbitt was of course completely correct in saying that the liberal elite work for anyone and everyone but the poor mugs that are born in this country, pay their taxes who are not even politely ignored, just contemptuously ignored for raising their ignorant voices and foolishly believing that in this one instance they will not be thwarted, which is of course wrong. Well, we will see!

That argument is nonsense. We have an upper house. Fact. You are essentially saying that it can only express an opinion when it is in-line with the Government's view of things and if it adopts a contrary view that view doesn't count because the upper house is unelected.  What rubbish! 

MDS posted:

That argument is nonsense. We have an upper house. Fact. You are essentially saying that it can only express an opinion when it is in-line with the Government's view of things and if it adopts a contrary view that view doesn't count because the upper house is unelected.  What rubbish! 

Ah, first bite goes predictably to MDS. The bill as received in the House of Fools is one that simply allows the government to invoke Article 50, no more no less. All the little add ons designed to procrastinate and humiliate the government are doomed to fail, as are the puerile attempts to oblige the government to show all of its hands before negotiations with the EU start. That worked really well for Cameron ending with his resignation, but that was the liberal elite's attempt at deceiving all of the people who, for once, were not swallowing the deception. As for the unelected status of the Lords, you are correct, however I did nor raise it, but now you have it is time that Augean stable was cleansed. 

I'm not sure what's worse really; swallowing the liberal elite's deception or Farage's lies. 

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in how big tbe Brexit reserve is going to be, with £60bn having been mentioned. That £60bn, which wouldn't need to be set aside for Brexit if Brexit wasn't happening, could be spent on education or health, both of which are in real financial difficulties. It really does seem to be Brexit at all costs. 

I understand that the UK could leave without any financial legacy commitment. Not a civil separation, but possible if talks become "difficult".

But £60bn is only about our annual deficit, so not the end of the world and possibly a price worth paying in return for a better deal on exit.

Exactly so. Pay £60bn to get what we currently get. A veritable bargain. Perhaps all those who ignored the liberal elite and voted to leave may like to have a whip round. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not sure what's worse really; swallowing the liberal elite's deception or Farage's lies. 

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in how big tbe Brexit reserve is going to be, with £60bn having been mentioned. That £60bn, which wouldn't need to be set aside for Brexit if Brexit wasn't happening, could be spent on education or health, both of which are in real financial difficulties. It really does seem to be Brexit at all costs. 

You are right, HH, it is Brexit at all costs. I know quite a lot of you are so focused on the rights and wrongs of Brexit within our own country and how badly we might be treating Johnny Foreigner (am I allowed to say that even sarcastically?) that you have perhaps not noticed the Tsunami hitting much of the rest of Europe which is going to change the whole nature of the EU beast. 

Do you think the acquisition of Opel by Peugeot, for example, is going to save one job at Ellesmere Port and the 'guarantees' we are being given are any different from those that Kraft gave to the Cadbury workers? The consolidation of Opel and Peugeot will protect German and French jobs while Vauxhall can take its unprotected chances. All because we play by the rules and not for the benefit of our own country.

Similarly, we were being regaled in The Times this morning at hitting some crass green energy target which has been achieved by moving manufacturing offshore and freezing old folk to death by artificially raising costs to meet a meaningless target in global terms. 

Perhaps if our politicians are forced to go local instead of virtue signalling on the European and Workd stages we might, but only might get some sanity back in this country. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not sure what's worse really; swallowing the liberal elite's deception or Farage's lies. 

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in how big tbe Brexit reserve is going to be, with £60bn having been mentioned. That £60bn, which wouldn't need to be set aside for Brexit if Brexit wasn't happening, could be spent on education or health, both of which are in real financial difficulties. It really does seem to be Brexit at all costs. 

Brexit Reserve? I can help you there. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Sweet FA ...

andarkian posted:

You are right, HH, it is Brexit at all costs. I know quite a lot of you are so focused on the rights and wrongs of Brexit within our own country and how badly we might be treating Johnny Foreigner (am I allowed to say that even sarcastically?) that you have perhaps not noticed the Tsunami hitting much of the rest of Europe which is going to change the whole nature of the EU beast. 

Do you think the acquisition of Opel by Peugeot, for example, is going to save one job at Ellesmere Port and the 'guarantees' we are being given are any different from those that Kraft gave to the Cadbury workers? The consolidation of Opel and Peugeot will protect German and French jobs while Vauxhall can take its unprotected chances. All because we play by the rules and not for the benefit of our own country.

Similarly, we were being regaled in The Times this morning at hitting some crass green energy target which has been achieved by moving manufacturing offshore and freezing old folk to death by artificially raising costs to meet a meaningless target in global terms. 

Perhaps if our politicians are forced to go local instead of virtue signalling on the European and Workd stages we might, but only might get some sanity back in this country. 

I do find the attitude that we should leave at all costs very strange. Unless you had a different ballot paper, the one I used just gave you the choice of in or out, not out in a hurry and damn the consequences. Surely you would want our country to get the best deal possible? Whatever you might wish, nevertheless we still require to maintain good trading relations with our EU partners, who I always liked to consider as fellow europeans rather than "Johnny foreigner", and it's a matter of great sadness that we're trying to distance ourselves from them.

ynwa250505 posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not sure what's worse really; swallowing the liberal elite's deception or Farage's lies. 

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in how big tbe Brexit reserve is going to be, with £60bn having been mentioned. That £60bn, which wouldn't need to be set aside for Brexit if Brexit wasn't happening, could be spent on education or health, both of which are in real financial difficulties. It really does seem to be Brexit at all costs. 

Brexit Reserve? I can help you there. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Sweet FA ...

It's possible we have a slight mis-understanding of terms here.

I am aware that the UK could be obliged to cough up c.£50bn on leaving the EU to cover the future cost of current liabilities such as MEP pensions and pensions for the UK contingent of "civil servants" in the EU, and a few other liabilities.

I am informed that such a payment would be "expected" but, if push comes to shove, the UK could refuse to pay. Such a move would most like sour relationships between the UK and the 27.

I think Eloise mentioned the purpose of this liability a few weeks back and might be able to shed more light on the matter.

andarkian posted:

All the little add ons designed to procrastinate and humiliate the government are doomed to fail, as are the puerile attempts to oblige the government to show all of its hands before negotiations with the EU start. That worked really well for Cameron ending with his resignation, but that was the liberal elite's attempt at deceiving all of the people who, for once, were not swallowing the deception. 

'All of the people'? - don't forget that 48% of us were deceived, or was that 52%?

tonym posted:

andarkian posted:

You are right, HH, it is Brexit at all costs. I know quite a lot of you are so focused on the rights and wrongs of Brexit within our own country and how badly we might be treating Johnny Foreigner (am I allowed to say that even sarcastically?) that you have perhaps not noticed the Tsunami hitting much of the rest of Europe which is going to change the whole nature of the EU beast. 

Do you think the acquisition of Opel by Peugeot, for example, is going to save one job at Ellesmere Port and the 'guarantees' we are being given are any different from those that Kraft gave to the Cadbury workers? The consolidation of Opel and Peugeot will protect German and French jobs while Vauxhall can take its unprotected chances. All because we play by the rules and not for the benefit of our own country.

Similarly, we were being regaled in The Times this morning at hitting some crass green energy target which has been achieved by moving manufacturing offshore and freezing old folk to death by artificially raising costs to meet a meaningless target in global terms. 

Perhaps if our politicians are forced to go local instead of virtue signalling on the European and Workd stages we might, but only might get some sanity back in this country. 

I do find the attitude that we should leave at all costs very strange. Unless you had a different ballot paper, the one I used just gave you the choice of in or out, not out in a hurry and damn the consequences. Surely you would want our country to get the best deal possible? Whatever you might wish, nevertheless we still require to maintain good trading relations with our EU partners, who I always liked to consider as fellow europeans rather than "Johnny foreigner", and it's a matter of great sadness that we're trying to distance ourselves from them.

You took me a little too literally. We will have to bear all the costs of Brexit whether we like it or not. Those costs are unknown as are the costs of remaining which come as a 'surprise' year on year, and as long as we remain we can do little about them. As for 'Johnny Foreigner', once again our MSM and liberal elite have consumed much more time 'worrying' about foreign residents in the UK rather than our own living abroad or even our own residents living in our own country. My presumption is that those who wish to stay and contribute to this country can do so in future. In fact, why are we bleating on about EU citizens when even more of the non-EU variety are flooding in here unimpeded?

Those of you, like me, who one their own home with no mortgage and total self sufficiency might feel I am being a little uncharitable but those who pay thousands to commute to work on miserable overcrowded transport systems in order to pay huge sums for 'affordable' accommodation, or cannot get their children in local schools, or struggle to get a hospital or doctor appointment might think otherwise. 

The analogy of the Herald of Free Enterprise is too apposite right now. We are a ship with no bulkheads riding in a rough sea with the bow doors open. Strangely, so is much of the rest of Europe.

tonym posted:

andarkian posted:

You are right, HH, it is Brexit at all costs. I know quite a lot of you are so focused on the rights and wrongs of Brexit within our own country and how badly we might be treating Johnny Foreigner (am I allowed to say that even sarcastically?) that you have perhaps not noticed the Tsunami hitting much of the rest of Europe which is going to change the whole nature of the EU beast. 

Do you think the acquisition of Opel by Peugeot, for example, is going to save one job at Ellesmere Port and the 'guarantees' we are being given are any different from those that Kraft gave to the Cadbury workers? The consolidation of Opel and Peugeot will protect German and French jobs while Vauxhall can take its unprotected chances. All because we play by the rules and not for the benefit of our own country.

Similarly, we were being regaled in The Times this morning at hitting some crass green energy target which has been achieved by moving manufacturing offshore and freezing old folk to death by artificially raising costs to meet a meaningless target in global terms. 

Perhaps if our politicians are forced to go local instead of virtue signalling on the European and Workd stages we might, but only might get some sanity back in this country. 

I do find the attitude that we should leave at all costs very strange. Unless you had a different ballot paper, the one I used just gave you the choice of in or out, not out in a hurry and damn the consequences. Surely you would want our country to get the best deal possible? Whatever you might wish, nevertheless we still require to maintain good trading relations with our EU partners, who I always liked to consider as fellow europeans rather than "Johnny foreigner", and it's a matter of great sadness that we're trying to distance ourselves from them.

Well said.

Cdb posted:

andarkian posted:

All the little add ons designed to procrastinate and humiliate the government are doomed to fail, as are the puerile attempts to oblige the government to show all of its hands before negotiations with the EU start. That worked really well for Cameron ending with his resignation, but that was the liberal elite's attempt at deceiving all of the people who, for once, were not swallowing the deception. 

'All of the people'? - don't forget that 48% of us were deceived, or was that 52%?

You answered your own question. Not all of the people were deceived by Cameron. Cameron went with his begging bowl to Brussels, got nothing and had to fight the Referendum with little or no demonstrable aid from his chums in Brussels. 52% of us were undeceived or we would have joined the 48%. Let's be fair there are a significant number of people in this country to whom the EU gives jobs and opportunities, but in my world at too much cost for the majority who don't. Those you might call the 52%.

andarkian posted:

tonym posted:

I do find the attitude that we should leave at all costs very strange. Unless you had a different ballot paper, the one I used just gave you the choice of in or out, not out in a hurry and damn the consequences. Surely you would want our country to get the best deal possible? Whatever you might wish, nevertheless we still require to maintain good trading relations with our EU partners, who I always liked to consider as fellow europeans rather than "Johnny foreigner", and it's a matter of great sadness that we're trying to distance ourselves from them.

As for 'Johnny Foreigner', once again our MSM and liberal elite have consumed much more time 'worrying' about foreign residents in the UK rather than our own living abroad or even our own residents living in our own country. My presumption is that those who wish to stay and contribute to this country can do so in future. In fact, why are we bleating on about EU citizens when even more of the non-EU variety are flooding in here unimpeded?

We could have dealt with non-EU immigrants whilst part of the EU. We didn't. This won't change when we leave.

The problem with under-funded schools and hospitals has nothing to do with EU immigrants. Its the government not raising taxes sufficiently high to pay for these national assets. This won't change anytime soon, either.

Brexit will not solve your "problems". You are going to be mighty disappointed, along with the rest of the 52%.

andarkian posted:

You took me a little too literally. We will have to bear all the costs of Brexit whether we like it or not.

The question is though ... is there any point at which the cost is too high?  Is there a point where the government should say "no, the cost to the economy is too much"; is there any industry sector leaving which would stop Brexit being a good idea?  I suspect for you the answer to that is "No"?

Those costs are unknown as are the costs of remaining which come as a 'surprise' year on year, and as long as we remain we can do little about them. As for 'Johnny Foreigner', once again our MSM and liberal elite have consumed much more time 'worrying' about foreign residents in the UK rather than our own living abroad or even our own residents living in our own country. My presumption is that those who wish to stay and contribute to this country can do so in future. In fact, why are we bleating on about EU citizens when even more of the non-EU variety are flooding in here unimpeded?

If that is your presumption ... surely you have no objection to those "liberal elites" writing it into law that they have the right to stay?  And yes "Johnny foreigner" is a racist term.  Those foreigners have been contributing to the UK economy for many years now.  As for worrying about UK citizens abroad; the UK gov. can't do anything concrete to help them (though they could have been concerned and offered them a say in the current situation) - but olive branch diplomacy might have been of help.

As for non-EU "Johnny Foreigners" ... well the UK love them because its cheaper to employ them than train UK citizens to be nurses, doctors, etc.  The government had 8 years to deal with them ... they have done nothing!

Those of you, like me, who one their own home with no mortgage and total self sufficiency might feel I am being a little uncharitable but those who pay thousands to commute to work on miserable overcrowded transport systems in order to pay huge sums for 'affordable' accommodation, or cannot get their children in local schools, or struggle to get a hospital or doctor appointment might think otherwise. 

You realise none of those issues you identify in the part I have bolded and italic'd are anything to do with being part of the EU?  Why do you think those are going to be corrected now when they haven't been for the last 8 years?

 

Eloise

You realise none of those issues you identify in the part I have bolded and italic'd are anything to do with being part of the EU?  Why do you think those are going to be corrected now when they haven't been for the last 8 years?

We had a little more than 8 years to see if the experiment would work. Somewhere around 44 years.  It would also appear that 52% of the population do not necessarily love the foreign invasion. All of which may be non PC and offend some sensibilities, but there you go. Being zipped up by the PC brigade has simply exacerbated all our problems.

andarkian posted:

 

You realise none of those issues you identify in the part I have bolded and italic'd are anything to do with being part of the EU?  Why do you think those are going to be corrected now when they haven't been for the last 8 years?

We had a little more than 8 years to see if the experiment would work. Somewhere around 44 years.  It would also appear that 52% of the population do not necessarily love the foreign invasion. All of which may be non PC and offend some sensibilities, but there you go. Being zipped up by the PC brigade has simply exacerbated all our problems.

Sorry but you appear to agree with me that the problems faced by people aren't caused by the EU; yet you think leaving the EU will cause the government to suddenly change policy over everything from NHS funding to transport and infrastructure investment?

PS. Its 8 years because its 8 years of this current government with their severe austerity which has exasperated the issues.

Eloise posted:

Sorry but you appear to agree with me that the problems faced by people aren't caused by the EU; yet you think leaving the EU will cause the government to suddenly change policy over everything from NHS funding to transport and infrastructure investment?

PS. Its 8 years because its 8 years of this current government with their severe austerity which has exasperated the issues.

Sleepwalking through 43 years of continual delegation of control of this country to Brussels has done permanent damage to the infrastructure and institutions of this country. Our unwavering acceptance and implementation of all diktats, Blair's blithe revocation of a gradual opening of our borders to Eastern Europeans have all had a permanent and not necessarily beneficial impact on our society. If we had been given the choice on the cultural appropriation and dilution through, say, a Referendum I guarantee we would have not tacitly accepted it, this I equally apply to EU and non-EU immigration. 

Delegation and derogation of responsibility for the failings of the NHS, transport, etc, etc. is the work of many governnents since the end of WWII, but the acceleration of the process has been particularly noticeable as our integration with the EU has proceeded apace.

Your personal grievance with the Tories is of no interest to me, and I doubt whether it "exasperated" any issues. If we had stuck with the idea of a European Economic Community I would probably be still for that institution. The creeping federal control is upsetting people all over the EU and it is the EU's own fault. 

Just a question...

What happens now if many other countries (as with India) require almost free access to the UK for their citizens before countenancing a trade deal?

Should we massively loose trade opportunities and seriously diminish our economy, or should we open our borders to many more migrants?

Nice Carrivagio.

thebigfredc posted:

Nice Carrivagio.

 

Taken in the Uffizio in Florence.

Huge posted:

Just a question...

What happens now if many other countries (as with India) require almost free access to the UK for their citizens before countenancing a trade deal?

Should we massively loose trade opportunities and seriously diminish our economy, or should we open our borders to many more migrants?

Seriously Huge, have you travelled to India, Australia, China and many, many other countries where Visas are required before you are allowed anywhere near their territory? I believe we still trade with them.