Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

dayjay posted:

Now that the referendum result has been followed by support from both houses can we assume that the focus will now change from resisting to supporting brexit and pushing for the best possible deal for the country?  Have we come to the end of this epic thread now that the answer is known?

Nope, we have the fish wifey to deal with now! She has to be filleted, battered and fried?

Interestingly, The Scottish crown took over England in 1707, not the other way round; so if anyone is to be given have a vote on independence it should be the English rather than the Scots!

andarkian posted:

dayjay posted:

Now that the referendum result has been followed by support from both houses can we assume that the focus will now change from resisting to supporting brexit and pushing for the best possible deal for the country?  Have we come to the end of this epic thread now that the answer is known?

Nope, we have the fish wifey to deal with now! She has to be filleted, battered and fried?

What I really don't understand is the joy you are getting out of this whole thing. Why you are so happy about something you cannot possibly understand the long-term ramifications of? Did you place a bet on this or something? Do you feel that somehow you are now in control?

So far there appears to be not one favourable outcome of us having isolated ourselves from Europe.  I think you are delusional if you think we've gained any more control over our borders or laws than we had before - if anything it's probably got worse in practical terms. We're relatively poorer than we were before, so there are more people with money who can buy their way in if they still want to come. We're also going to be bent over and taken advantage of by many countries in our desperate need to do new trade deals if we can't access the Single Market without punitive tariffs.

Will we be able to get rid of all those people who are 'not like us'? I doubt it very much - though the ones we need will probably go anyway as they won't need to stay and feel unwelcome as they'll be wanted elsewhere.

The main thing we have appeared to have done - as have the States - is to concede many of our positions of influence in the world by no longer being perceived as a welcoming country. Nothing good will have come of this withdrawal in the fully interdependent world we now live in, and the rest of the world will be looking on with delight to see what they can take from us.

We are a tiny little island which used to have an Empire but many in the UK act and think as if we still have. The world owes us nothing, and I reckon most only invested here as we were seen as a safe pair of hands with good access to Europe. Will be interesting to see if we still have anything the people with money want...

I think the only way you will personally have won is if you are towards the end of your life and may die before the worst of the shit hits the fan. I understand from your earlier posts that you are very smug about the fact that you are OK Jack, so perhaps this is it?

Anyway, my last contribution to this thread. Enjoy whatever it is you think you've now won - I hope it was worth the cost.

Huge, I must admit I thought the 1707 Union with England act passed  by the Scottish Parliament reciprocated the 1706  Union with Scotland act passed by the English  Parliament ... the actual Union of the Crowns was earlier in 1603 when James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne but this was effectively superseded by the 1706/1707 acts but I probably have it wrong as history was never my thing...

So if anything, if there is to be a split of the United Kingdom between England and Scotland i can't see how this can happen without the vote of both parliaments, and a refurrendum of the whole UK. I  didn't see how it could be done democratically last time, and I still don't see it now... it's a bilateral agreement enshrined by the two acts of parliaments.... 

Penarth Blues posted:

 

The main thing we have appeared to have done - as have the States - is to concede many of our positions of influence in the world by no longer being perceived as a welcoming country. Nothing good will have come of this withdrawal in the fully interdependent world we now live in, and the rest of the world will be looking on with delight to see what they can take from us..

Very concerning and sad today watching a programme on the decimating effect already on the NHS with so many EU foreign workers already having left as a direct result of Brexit, and a lot more saying they'll be following because UK isn't a welcoming place anymore - this evening's Commons vote may precipitate that.

Of course, one argument is that UK should increase wages and pay enough to attract 'British' workers into the NHS, instead or the 60 or 70% or whatever it is foreign workers, and maybe that's where the billions of £ saved after leaving EU should go (Not more/better hospitals, but paying 'our' people a decent wage.) That is certainly an argument, and I leave others to debate it, but the primary question is, will the NHS be better or worse after leaving the EU? CUrrent indications are norpt encouraging.

I have yet to see a single genuinely positive outcome show any signs of materialising in reality. I just hope UK politicians manage to do the right thing when it comes to the final crunch. Maybe SNP's posturing could have a positive effect, for all I personally think about the wisdom of splitting the UK - and as for Theresa May's calling on Nicola Sturgeon to stop playing politics, what exactly does she thing politicians do, including herself?

Penarth Blues posted:

andarkian posted:

dayjay posted:

Now that the referendum result has been followed by support from both houses can we assume that the focus will now change from resisting to supporting brexit and pushing for the best possible deal for the country?  Have we come to the end of this epic thread now that the answer is known?

Nope, we have the fish wifey to deal with now! She has to be filleted, battered and fried?

What I really don't understand is the joy you are getting out of this whole thing. Why you are so happy about something you cannot possibly understand the long-term ramifications of? Did you place a bet on this or something? Do you feel that somehow you are now in control?

So far there appears to be not one favourable outcome of us having isolated ourselves from Europe.  I think you are delusional if you think we've gained any more control over our borders or laws than we had before - if anything it's probably got worse in practical terms. We're relatively poorer than we were before, so there are more people with money who can buy their way in if they still want to come. We're also going to be bent over and taken advantage of by many countries in our desperate need to do new trade deals if we can't access the Single Market without punitive tariffs.

Will we be able to get rid of all those people who are 'not like us'? I doubt it very much - though the ones we need will probably go anyway as they won't need to stay and feel unwelcome as they'll be wanted elsewhere.

The main thing we have appeared to have done - as have the States - is to concede many of our positions of influence in the world by no longer being perceived as a welcoming country. Nothing good will have come of this withdrawal in the fully interdependent world we now live in, and the rest of the world will be looking on with delight to see what they can take from us.

We are a tiny little island which used to have an Empire but many in the UK act and think as if we still have. The world owes us nothing, and I reckon most only invested here as we were seen as a safe pair of hands with good access to Europe. Will be interesting to see if we still have anything the people with money want...

I think the only way you will personally have won is if you are towards the end of your life and may die before the worst of the shit hits the fan. I understand from your earlier posts that you are very smug about the fact that you are OK Jack, so perhaps this is it?

Anyway, my last contribution to this thread. Enjoy whatever it is you think you've now won - I hope it was worth the cost.

Since that was your last posting you will probably not see this, but I will answer anyway. As far as both the EU and Indy2 are concerned, I personally feel that both are and were existential battles for the people of Britain. Feeling sad, or frightened of the big bad world are no reasons for tearing up one of the best and most civilised countries in the world and simply parcelling it up for someone else's dubious practices, beliefs and benefit. This is applicable to both the EU and the SNP.

On Indy2 this is going to be a no holds barred, brutal battle. Cameron, Brown, Clegg et al attempted to appease the Scots with more control and even more money as part of Indy1. Does not seem to have made one bit of difference to Mrs Sturgeon or her fanatical supporters. That generational vote thing has evaporated.

Scotland succumbed to English or U.K. rule at least partly through the Darien crisis of 1700 whereby Scotland had become virtually bankrupt. Current position is not great vis a vis debt for either the U.K. or Scotland. However, Scotland's current borrowings being 10% of its GDP if not automatically excluding it from the SNP's treasured EU would have measures applied to it as stringent and as damaging as those being experienced by Greece and Portugal. 

In the end Scotland could survive as a separate country as England would survive the breakup. However, there should be no illusions that Scotland would be comfortable without its own currency, no Barnet formula, much fewer Civil Service jobs, no naval construction or bases and quite likely a move by Edinburgh's financial institutions to a 'safer' harbour in London. Emotion will drive much of the coming battle, more so than economic reality, but those who feel Scotland would be committing economic suicide by separating better get emotional themselves. I am a proud Scot but have no truck with the SNP and its castles built on sand. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Very concerning and sad today watching a programme on the decimating effect already on the NHS with so many EU foreign workers already having left as a direct result of Brexit, and a lot more saying they'll be following because UK isn't a welcoming place anymore - this evening's Commons vote may precipitate that.

 

But this is strongly supported and getting onwardly enforced by Tory party agenda to run the NHS down to the point it's ripe for total privatisations [been ongoing since 2010] It's just another disaster waiting to happen post-Brexit, along with losing Scotland in the UK which is a dead-cert, and the dreadful reality of the IRA returning with bombs and bullets while the watchtowers go back up with border guards, barricades, barbed wire, bottles, and blood and probably conclude in a united Ireland in the EU - which would probably be fair considering the Scots won't want to constitutionally truck with funny little offshore tax-heaven Brexitland for superrich peoples of the gangster money grabbing world.

So BREXIT is going to get well and truly stuffed with just England and Wales in isolation, probably get renamed ENWAEXIT - which incidentally is an anagram of 'A wee X nit' which may mean something to Leave voting Scots residing in England?

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

The New Tory Brexit Party are frantically determined to further it's grip on power by the insane signing of Article 50 regardless to how hard it will be for the people of the UK. They obviously don't give a toss for The People, it's only blinkered interest is the opportunity for New Tory Brexit Party power grab.

David Davis really knows how to take the Percentage, i know he's only a typical useless Tory bastard, but he [and others] really shouldn't repeatedly lie the big fat whopper about the all New Tory Brexit Party's decision of Article 50 signing being the will of a people - It's not, it's only suggests the political will of the 17.4m electorate who actually voted Leave, while 30 million of the electorate did not vote for it. (Plus more when you dial in the 16 & 17 year olds who were undemocratically excluded from the referendum). So the Will of the People is clearly to the stay in the EU.

It would seem the Tories have deployed their opportunist chance to seize control of the narrow and fluke Leave result from the very flawed electoral referendum procedure; and like a rugby player snatching a ball to run with it down the pitch shoving all reason, logic, and sensible judgement aside in it's blinkered determination to score a try for future Tory Brexit nasty party ideology.

We urgently need another referendum vote, a big decider just to be sure, would be dead easy to do and cost us a lot less than signing away our liberty with Article 50.

Debs

 

You should have a lie down in a darkened room, or seek counselling. There was a vote, your side lost, get over it. Oh and if you are worried about the baby eating Tories grip on power now, just wait till we get the bounday changes through. The Labour Party will be history. As for another referendum. You lost the last one, you will lose by an even bigger margin with a second one. Its time to move on.

 

You lost the last one, you will lose by an even bigger margin with a second one. Its time to move on.

 

Got this weeks lottery numbers you seem to know everything?

I'm sure this f**k up of a government will have won over so many more brexiteers!

ltaylor posted:

You should have a lie down in a darkened room, or seek counselling. There was a vote, your side lost, get over it. Oh and if you are worried about the baby eating Tories grip on power now, just wait till we get the bounday changes through. The Labour Party will be history. As for another referendum. You lost the last one, you will lose by an even bigger margin with a second one. Its time to move on.

 

Don't we all so love the way that the Brexiteers are so magnanimous in victory and so conciliatory, makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.

It works both ways though, which is why we have posts of doom and the end of the world, based on that poster's personal bias against the process, as a result of brexit, and posts celebrating it happening.  For both sides it really is time to move on, it is going to happen and that will be hard enough without the continuation of polarised extreme views and recriminations.  I know it's hard to believe but even a fifty page strand on the Naim website is unlikely to have any impact either way

Huge posted:

ltaylor posted:

You should have a lie down in a darkened room, or seek counselling. There was a vote, your side lost, get over it. Oh and if you are worried about the baby eating Tories grip on power now, just wait till we get the bounday changes through. The Labour Party will be history. As for anozther referendum. You lost the last one, you will lose by an even bigger margin with a second one. Its time to move on.

 

Don't we all so love the way that the Brexiteers are so magnanimous in victory and so conciliatory, makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.

Sorry for including the whole comment again when I am only referring to Huge's very last sentence. You were almost doing very well until you couldn't resist the punchline 'makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.' Demolished all your credibility.

There is a markedly personal, belittling tone to the more recent comments from the Brexit side here.

I would urge *all* posters to focus more on the issues and tone the sneering down.

andarkian posted:

Sorry for including the whole comment again when I am only referring to Huge's very last sentence. You were almost doing very well until you couldn't resist the punchline 'makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.' Demolished all your credibility.

So those who voted to stay in the EU should regret the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes promulgated by the Remain campaign, but those voting to leave are excused all regret about the Leave side's lies?

ltaylor posted:

You should have a lie down in a darkened room, or seek counselling. There was a vote, your side lost, get over it. Oh and if you are worried about the baby eating Tories grip on power now, just wait till we get the bounday changes through. The Labour Party will be history. As for another referendum. You lost the last one, you will lose by an even bigger margin with a second one. Its time to move on.

Spoken like a typical big mouthed bullying brexiteer - says far more about you than me.

I may state many inconvenient truths but at least it conforms to the subject matter.

Debs

Huge posted:

andarkian posted:

Sorry for including the whole comment again when I am only referring to Huge's very last sentence. You were almost doing very well until you couldn't resist the punchline 'makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.' Demolished all your credibility.

So those who voted to stay in the EU should regret the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes promulgated by the Remain campaign, but those voting to leave are excused all regret about the Leave side's lies?

See, there you go again about 'the Leave side's lies.' We wanted out but certainly didn't promise a rose garden to follow. There were plenty practical examples of why we should leave that denanded no lies, but we certainly got plenty doom, gloom and threats from the Remain side, which were, so far, unsubstantiated. Am quite happy to bore you and the rest of the readers with detail if you so wish, but simply shouting that it wasn't fair, or it was rigged is not doing anyone any favours. 

andarkian posted:

Huge posted:

andarkian posted:

Sorry for including the whole comment again when I am only referring to Huge's very last sentence. You were almost doing very well until you couldn't resist the punchline 'makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.' Demolished all your credibility.

So those who voted to stay in the EU should regret the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes promulgated by the Remain campaign, but those voting to leave are excused all regret about the Leave side's lies?

See, there you go again about 'the Leave side's lies.' We wanted out but certainly didn't promise a rose garden to follow. There were plenty practical examples of why we should leave that denanded no lies, but we certainly got plenty doom, gloom and threats from the Remain side, which were, so far, unsubstantiated. Am quite happy to bore you and the rest of the readers with detail if you so wish, but simply shouting that it wasn't fair, or it was rigged is not doing anyone any favours. 

Did you not read my post, did you not understand it*, or did you just decide to process it selectively.  As I pointed out neither of the campaigns came out with any real credibility.

I didn't say "it wasn't fair" I didn't say "it was rigged" - why do you imply that I did? (and I didn't SHOUT).

* Did I get my use of English wrong, I thought it was clear enough?

Huge posted:

andarkian posted:

Huge posted:

andarkian posted:

Sorry for including the whole comment again when I am only referring to Huge's very last sentence. You were almost doing very well until you couldn't resist the punchline 'makes one think they actually have a conscience about all the lies.' Demolished all your credibility.

So those who voted to stay in the EU should regret the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes promulgated by the Remain campaign, but those voting to leave are excused all regret about the Leave side's lies?

See, there you go again about 'the Leave side's lies.' We wanted out but certainly didn't promise a rose garden to follow. There were plenty practical examples of why we should leave that denanded no lies, but we certainly got plenty doom, gloom and threats from the Remain side, which were, so far, unsubstantiated. Am quite happy to bore you and the rest of the readers with detail if you so wish, but simply shouting that it wasn't fair, or it was rigged is not doing anyone any favours. 

Did you not read my post, did you not understand it*, or did you just decide to process it selectively.  As I pointed out neither of the campaigns came out with any real credibility.

I didn't say "it wasn't fair" I didn't say "it was rigged" - why do you imply that I did? (and I didn't SHOUT).

 

* Did I get my use of English wrong, I thought it was clear enough?

Okay, so what were the Leave side's lies and I would prefer that not to be the chestnut about £18.65 billion to spend on the NHS, the most distorted propaganda used by both sides. Am not really sure why we are retreading old ground but am happy to continue if you so wish. However, if you are looking for some form of truth and reconciliation forum, I won't be there, but feel free to start that thread. 

andarkian posted:

Okay, so what were the Leave side's lies and I would prefer that not to be the chestnut about £18.65 billion to spend on the NHS, the most distorted propaganda used by both sides. Am not really sure why we are retreading old ground but am happy to continue if you so wish. However, if you are looking for some form of truth and reconciliation forum, I won't be there, but feel free to start that thread. 

There's little point in any of that.

I know that you know what the lies were on the Leave side, just as you know that I know the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes that was perpetrated by the Remain side; and vice versa.

As I pointed out neither of the campaigns came out of it with any real credibility.

Huge posted:

andarkian posted:

 

There's little point in any of that.

I know that you know what the lies were on the Leave side, just as you know that I know the exaggerations and inappropriate selective use of extremes that was perpetrated by the Remain side; and vice versa.

As I pointed out neither of the campaigns came out of it with any real credibility.

On that basis, Huge, I am perfectly happy to run up the white flag and call a truce! Can we please get on with fighting wee Nicola?

Andarkian, I think you may find it interesting that the true Sturgeons evolved some 100 to 90 million years ago and, apart from size and power, have changed very little since then, remaining antediluvian in appearance and behaviour.

Any possible similarity to any living person may be purely coincidental.  

andarkian posted:

Okay, so what were the Leave side's lies and I would prefer that not to be the chestnut about £18.65 billion to spend on the NHS, the most distorted propaganda used by both sides. Am not really sure why we are retreading old ground but am happy to continue if you so wish. However, if you are looking for some form of truth and reconciliation forum, I won't be there, but feel free to start that thread. 

I have no doubt that you would prefer to ignore the most blatant lie in recent UK political history. But at least have the good grace to accept that it IS a lie.

• But the following issues are just as important :-
• The 48% are not an insignificant membership of the UK community.
• The 52% were not unanimous in their reasons for Leaving
• In particular, they were not unanimous in leaving at any cost to the economy
• Nor were they unanimous in leaving in order to stop any further immigration
• No one has outlined any perceived economic opportunities and benefits in leaving
• HMG has accepted that immigration will continue for many years, post Brexit

It would seem very reasonable to ask Parliament to review the situation in two years time, when the benefits of leaving the EU will be substantially clearer, and to make a decision as to whether to leave or remain (or even to put it to another referendum).

Has anyone else noticed the remarkable resemblence between Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Merkel? Could be mother and daughter...

Don Atkinson posted:

andarkian posted:

Okay, so what were the Leave side's lies and I would prefer that not to be the chestnut about £18.65 billion to spend on the NHS, the most distorted propaganda used by both sides. Am not really sure why we are retreading old ground but am happy to continue if you so wish. However, if you are looking for some form of truth and reconciliation forum, I won't be there, but feel free to start that thread. 

I have no doubt that you would prefer to ignore the most blatant lie in recent UK political history. But at least have the good grace to accept that it IS a lie.

• But the following issues are just as important :-
• The 48% are not an insignificant membership of the UK community.
• The 52% were not unanimous in their reasons for Leaving
• In particular, they were not unanimous in leaving at any cost to the economy
• Nor were they unanimous in leaving in order to stop any further immigration
• No one has outlined any perceived economic opportunities and benefits in leaving
• HMG has accepted that immigration will continue for many years, post Brexit

 

It would seem very reasonable to ask Parliament to review the situation in two years time, when the benefits of leaving the EU will be substantially clearer, and to make a decision as to whether to leave or remain (or even to put it to another referendum).

 

 

That would be the obvious, considered sensible thing to do. And i cannot see how any reasonable oerson can argue otherwise, if they have any interest in or respect for democracy -regardless of which 'side' of Brexit anyone is on. 

Sadly political parties often seem to be more interested in point scoring...

The decision to leave has already been made, prompted by the referendum result and supported by both houses, as has the involvement in parliament at the end of the two year period, again by both houses in line with our democratic processes.  The sooner we accept that and move on, and stop trying to build in repeated attempts to have another bite at the cherry the better.  We don't want to become like the SNP do we, using every opportunity to push forward our own narrow agenda and to overturn what has been previously agreed? I've enjoyed reading this thread even if it has been occasionally frustrating and I recognise the passion that many contributors have on this subject but it has become a little repetitive and the question asked by the OP has been answered so this will be my last post here.  I look forward to the thread covering any future deal at the end of the process