Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Hungryhalibut posted:

The heartless automaton f u c k s the country. Excellent. Drinks all round. 

Harsh fishman! Perhaps you'd be happier swimming with the Sturgeons and Salmonds in Scotland who, in my opinion are well and truly rogering my native country.

Very possibly. 

andarkian posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

andarkian posted:

Eloise posted:

It's happened...

...Theresa May has signed the Article 50 notification letter.

Excellent! The UK once more helps Europe to step away from another certain disaster! Now for the Ginger Whinger in Scotland, she needs seeing off and soon. Keep up the great fight, Theresa.

You certainly know how to win friends and influence people..............

I'll keep appending the photo 'cos I love it so much. As to making friends, I can take it or leave it. As to influencing people, one way or the other am almost certain to do that. Either way, I should apologise to Eloise for not thanking her for alerting us to the momentous moment.

 That photo just about sums up the situation the UK’s now in, sat at a table, alone, with just the union flag for company.

 I bet you’re creaming yourself.

fatcat posted:

andarkian posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

andarkian posted:

 

 

 

 

 That photo just about sums up the situation the UK’s now in, sat at a table, alone, with just the union flag for company.

 I bet you’re creaming yourself.

Oh dear, another nasty, naughty allusion. I'll leave the creaming to fat cats, they are more suited to that than myself.

As much as I regret the Brexit, it's good to proceed with it swiftly in order to keep the period of uncertainty as short as possible. I wish both sides good judgement during the exit negotiations and may there be no burned earth on either side. And then perhaps, in 20 years, the UK might join again.

there will not be a euro in 20 yrs time ,not even in 10

Fritzen I agree - and perhaps it might encourage the EU to reform itself which is so terribly needed IMO and up to now so little appetite seemingly to do. This might encourage the UK and other countries to join a new revised, forward, less introverted looking and less dominant/controlling EU2 at some point in the future. After all we are all Europeans whether in the EU or not and this Brexit action might be the catalyst for change in many quarters.

I am concerned however on how the EU will be funded going forward without the UK..is it right or even sustainable going forward to overly rely on Germany, France and Italy now excluding the UK - and managing the budgets and accounts of the EU has been an ongoing saga so I understand. The last thing Europe needs is a bankrupt EU - with it representing still so much of Europe.

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Fritzen I agree - and perhaps it might encourage the EU to reform itself which is so terribly needed IMO and up to now so little appetite seemingly to do. This might encourage the UK and other countries to join a new revised, forward, less introverted looking and less dominant/controlling EU2 at some point in the future. After all we are all Europeans whether in the EU or not and this Brexit action might be the catalyst for change in many quarters.

I am concerned however on how the EU will be funded going forward without the UK..is it right or even sustainable going forward to overly rely on Germany, France and Italy now excluding the UK - and managing the budgets and accounts of the EU has been an ongoing saga so I understand. The last thing Europe needs is a bankrupt EU - with it representing still so much of Europe.

I concur completely with you Simon. When the EEC was a club of 'equals' and there was a match of economies the benefits of that (EEC ) organisation were self evident and manageable. Once it became a political club run for the benefit of politicians and their lofty ambitions, they allowed the club to be extended to economies that simply wanted the Euro and the German lifestyle without the effort involved. Am afraid the clash of political egos and mismanaged economies has been as toxic as could have been anticipated. No amount of unwarranted emotion is going to change these facts. 

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Agreed.  Over the medium/longer term this is going to prove to be catastrophic.

Regards,

Lindsay

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Agreed.  Over the medium/longer term this is going to prove to be catastrophic.

Regards,

Lindsay

I have to agree that there is going to be a catastrophe, but it is primarily going to be visited on the EU itself. Am afraid I cannot recognise the corrupt, ailing organisation that many seem to be mourning. To my mind, the primary wailers at the wake are the self serving politicians who have  just seen their future gravy train head off into the distance without them as well as the primary means for them passing bucks when a hard decision confronts them. 

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

+1,000

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Not really!

It's in the hands of Theresa May and her cohorts of far right wing self-serving opportunists who seem hell-bent on running down the NHS and introducing an American style of health care, and re-distributing wealth in this country from the poor to the wealthy.

If you are one of the privileged and well off in our society (the "Champagne Conservatives", the "I'm all right Jack" brigade, or the Farage style "Hooray Henrys", if you like), and don't really care about the lot of the "common man" then you will be doing just dandy. Otherwise, you are in for a tough ride once you realise that this Government's priorities are not aligned with yours.   

Furthermore May appears to be adopting a Trump like approach to her political campaigning by claiming that Brexit will bring people in the UK closer together than before.

By the way I really don't think that most Tory supporters fall into any of the 3 categories I have outlined above. However, a few people on this forum certainly do appear to do so. 

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Not really!

It's in the hands of Theresa May and her cohorts of far right wing self-serving opportunists who seem hell-bent on running down the NHS and introducing an American style of health care, and re-distributing wealth in this country from the poor to the wealthy.

If you are one of the privileged and well off in our society (the "Champagne Conservatives", the "I'm all right Jack" brigade, or the Farage style "Hooray Henrys", if you like), and don't really care about the lot of the "common man" then you will be doing just dandy. Otherwise, you are in for a tough ride once you realise that this Government's priorities are not aligned with yours.   

Furthermore May appears to be adopting a Trump like approach to her political campaigning by claiming that Brexit will bring people in the UK closer together than before.

By the way I really don't think that most Tory supporters fall into any of the 3 categories I have outlined above. However, a few people on this forum certainly do appear to do so. 

Usual  left wing claptrap! Has it ever entered your narrow mind that the vote to Leave could never have happened without the vote of the 'common man', and that the policies anticipated behind a so called hard Brexit are the minimum requirements expected by that 'common man'. Patronising the 'common man' has been the standard position of the left wing 'elite' for far too long, which is why the left wing parties are being deserted by the 'common man'.

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Yep, don't do anything that the prize snowflake, Trudeau, is doing in Canada. How's your own heating bills in that very cold country which Trudeau has hiked in adoration of 'Climate Change'?

andarkian posted:

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Not really!

It's in the hands of Theresa May and her cohorts of far right wing self-serving opportunists who seem hell-bent on running down the NHS and introducing an American style of health care, and re-distributing wealth in this country from the poor to the wealthy.

If you are one of the privileged and well off in our society (the "Champagne Conservatives", the "I'm all right Jack" brigade, or the Farage style "Hooray Henrys", if you like), and don't really care about the lot of the "common man" then you will be doing just dandy. Otherwise, you are in for a tough ride once you realise that this Government's priorities are not aligned with yours.   

Furthermore May appears to be adopting a Trump like approach to her political campaigning by claiming that Brexit will bring people in the UK closer together than before.

By the way I really don't think that most Tory supporters fall into any of the 3 categories I have outlined above. However, a few people on this forum certainly do appear to do so. 

Usual  left wing claptrap! Has it ever entered your narrow mind that the vote to Leave could never have happened without the vote of the 'common man', and that the policies anticipated behind a so called hard Brexit are the minimum requirements expected by that 'common man'. Patronising the 'common man' has been the standard position of the left wing 'elite' for far too long, which is why the left wing parties are being deserted by the 'common man'.

and might I add - a very typical polarised, divisive and anticipated response from yourself. Your divisive comment about the "Ginger Whinger" in another thread says all that I need to know about your personal style and approach to politics. Who are your personal heroes in the sphere of World Politics? Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Marine le Pen? Perhaps John Redwood? I hardly think that your response will be any of the more 'inclusive' Tories' of the past. 

Please elaborate on your reasons why some of my views are "usual left wing claptrap". Do you think that the NHS is safe in the hands of this Government, or are you simply really not a fan of the NHS or anything else that can be labelled an "Entitlement" (a la Donald Trump). I would be really interested to know. And the claims about the EU money that would be funnelled towards the NHS if we voted to leave - all just innocent banter and absolutely acceptable in the field of political campaigning? Not out and out lies? Of course, this is all just more whinging and blinkered left wing thinking.  

By the way, it had occurred to my narrow mind (looks like we have something in common after all) from the outset that it was the "common man" who moved en-masse across to the Nigel Farage side of the referendum vote and swayed the result. I pointed out the irony of this in a number of my earlier posts. Those "commen men" in the US who similarly voted forTrump (believing his ridiculous campaign rhetoric) are (very) slowly beginning to realise he is not what he claimed to be. How long will it take before the commen man in this country reclaims his rightful place in the centre ground of UK politics? 

andarkian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Yep, don't do anything that the prize snowflake, Trudeau, is doing in Canada. How's your own heating bills in that very cold country which Trudeau has hiked in adoration of 'Climate Change'?

Energy here is not nearly expensive enough. It's not about my heating bills. There are larger things at stake. If the wealthiest countries in the world can only act in self interest, then we're all screwed.

winkyincanada posted:

andarkian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Yep, don't do anything that the prize snowflake, Trudeau, is doing in Canada. How's your own heating bills in that very cold country which Trudeau has hiked in adoration of 'Climate Change'?

Energy here is not nearly expensive enough. It's not about my heating bills. There are larger things at stake. If the wealthiest countries in the world can only act in self interest, then we're all screwed.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, winkyincanada says the 'common' Canadian man and woman can eat cake as an alternative to affordable energy, but sadly should not be able to afford the energy to bake the cake. Screwing your fellow citizens as a starting point for global approbation is not only disingenuous it makes you look weak and feeble to the rest of the world and am afraid will result in your country being double screwed. And I am only using your own feeble words. 

Hmack posted:

andarkian posted:

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

 

 

Usual  left wing claptrap! Has it ever entered your narrow mind that the vote to Leave could never have happened without the vote of the 'common man', and that the policies anticipated behind a so called hard Brexit are the minimum requirements expected by that 'common man'. Patronising the 'common man' has been the standard position of the left wing 'elite' for far too long, which is why the left wing parties are being deserted by the 'common man'.

and might I add - a very typical polarised, divisive and anticipated response from yourself. Your divisive comment about the "Ginger Whinger" in another thread says all that I need to know about your personal style and approach to politics. Who are your personal heroes in the sphere of World Politics? Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Marine le Pen? Perhaps John Redwood? I hardly think that your response will be any of the more 'inclusive' Tories' of the past. 

Please elaborate on your reasons why some of my views are "usual left wing claptrap". Do you think that the NHS is safe in the hands of this Government, or are you simply really not a fan of the NHS or anything else that can be labelled an "Entitlement" (a la Donald Trump). I would be really interested to know. And the claims about the EU money that would be funnelled towards the NHS if we voted to leave - all just innocent banter and absolutely acceptable in the field of political campaigning? Not out and out lies? Of course, this is all just more whinging and blinkered left wing thinking.  

By the way, it had occurred to my narrow mind (looks like we have something in common after all) from the outset that it was the "common man" who moved en-masse across to the Nigel Farage side of the referendum vote and swayed the result. I pointed out the irony of this in a number of my earlier posts. Those "commen men" in the US who similarly voted forTrump (believing his ridiculous campaign rhetoric) are (very) slowly beginning to realise he is not what he claimed to be. How long will it take before the commen man in this country reclaims his rightful place in the centre ground of UK politics? 

There you go again, presuming who I am, what my views are and who I plead allegiance to. Show me how the Ginger Whinger is not whinging? She's a world class whinger loathed equally as much in Scotland, England and by myself. 

Trump was simply the antidote to Clinton and the fact that he was elected shows you how the American 'common msn' felt about her. Whether he's in power a year from now is not a bet I would take or even think that he would deserve to retain his position.

As to the NHS and all the holy cows and shibboleths continually trotted out by the nervous political classes, it won't make the slightest difference what I think or say, some very hard decisions on what we can afford to deliver at the point of service are still going to have to be made, even if we spend the total £10 billion that Remainers believe were promised rather than the sum of money we won't cough up to the EU kleptocracy. Anyway, I would rather the £14 billion Foreign Aid was spent on our much more deserving elderly than fed into despots' Swiss bank accounts.

Any of that radical right wing?

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Anything we choose. That's the whole point! Everything is now in the hands of OUR elected representatives - rather than in the hands of a number of faceless anonymous unelected bureaucrats in another country ... As I said, rejoice !!!

And I think your concerns are better expended on Trudeau's lack of achievement ...

Hmack posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

I don't disagree that the EU would benefit from reform but that would be much easier to work for and achieve while being on the inside than the outside.  For me this is a depressing day and one that I think we will come to regret, even if that day is some years off.    

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Not really!

It's in the hands of Theresa May and her cohorts of far right wing self-serving opportunists who seem hell-bent on running down the NHS and introducing an American style of health care, and re-distributing wealth in this country from the poor to the wealthy.

If you are one of the privileged and well off in our society (the "Champagne Conservatives", the "I'm all right Jack" brigade, or the Farage style "Hooray Henrys", if you like), and don't really care about the lot of the "common man" then you will be doing just dandy. Otherwise, you are in for a tough ride once you realise that this Government's priorities are not aligned with yours.   

Furthermore May appears to be adopting a Trump like approach to her political campaigning by claiming that Brexit will bring people in the UK closer together than before.

By the way I really don't think that most Tory supporters fall into any of the 3 categories I have outlined above. However, a few people on this forum certainly do appear to do so. 

So if you don't like this particular government - you get a chance to un-elect them .... simples !!!

As alternatives you have the Minor Fart and Jezza the Clown .... ummmmm ..... problem eh ...

andarkian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

andarkian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Yep, don't do anything that the prize snowflake, Trudeau, is doing in Canada. How's your own heating bills in that very cold country which Trudeau has hiked in adoration of 'Climate Change'?

Energy here is not nearly expensive enough. It's not about my heating bills. There are larger things at stake. If the wealthiest countries in the world can only act in self interest, then we're all screwed.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, winkyincanada says the 'common' Canadian man and woman can eat cake as an alternative to affordable energy, but sadly should not be able to afford the energy to bake the cake. Screwing your fellow citizens as a starting point for global approbation is not only disingenuous it makes you look weak and feeble to the rest of the world and am afraid will result in your country being double screwed. And I am only using your own feeble words. 

So - are your comments just plain "rhetoric" for the sake of scoring points, or do you have some underlying beliefs to back them up.

Are you (like Stephen Bannon and Donald Trump) of the opinion that "Global "Warming" is a conspiracy? Are you behind Donald Trump's moves to do away with emission controls on cars and return "big style" to the use of fossil fuels? Do you think that the impact Trump's decision will have on attempts to reduce emissions and toxic pollution in 'developing' countries such as China, India and others are just too bad?

winkyincanada posted:

andarkian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

 

Reform the EU from the inside? Easier? Where have you been for the past 40 years?

This is a day to rejoice! Our destiny is back in our own hands ��

Any examples of what should be done with this new-found (re-claimed) authority?

Yep, don't do anything that the prize snowflake, Trudeau, is doing in Canada. How's your own heating bills in that very cold country which Trudeau has hiked in adoration of 'Climate Change'?

Energy here is not nearly expensive enough. It's not about my heating bills. There are larger things at stake. If the wealthiest countries in the world can only act in self interest, then we're all screwed.

Canadian energy policy - there's a subject - "let the bastards in the East freeze" lol - start the thread winky ...