Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Six pages (c.2,000 words) of drivel to invoke A.50. 

The Parliamentary act was only a couple of lines and a couple of hundred words to avoid ambiguity.

Does the PM know how to work WITH the EU in order to get a Win-Win outcome ? 

Don Atkinson posted:

Does the PM know how to work WITH the EU in order to get a Win-Win outcome ? 

I may be naieve ... but not sure veiled threats help!

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Does the PM know how to work WITH the EU in order to get a Win-Win outcome ? 

I may be naieve ... but not sure veiled threats help!

Exactly !

Oh sorry ... I take it all back David Cameron was right to hold the referendum ... the great man has spoken and told us so!

Eloise posted:

Oh sorry ... I take it all back David Cameron was right to hold the referendum ... the great man has spoken and told us so!

I see it as a crime against humanity and it makes anything that Mr Blair may have done look like a triviality.

Being a Polish/Canadian who has lived in London for over 10 years. Has worked (payed my taxes) and raised two beautiful children here, but might soon be kicked out of the country I've made my home. It's interesting to hear some people's views on here.  Kind of reminds me of another time in Europe, not too long ago actually, when outsiders where not welcome and blamed for that country's economy problems. 

BTW. House prices are sky high because of foreign buyers/investors from Russia, the far east and the middle east, nothing to do with a few Europeans coming here.

DomTomLondon posted:

Being a Polish/Canadian who has lived in London for over 10 years. Has worked (payed my taxes) and raised two beautiful children here, but might soon be kicked out of the country I've made my home. It's interesting to hear some people's views on here.  Kind of reminds me of another time in Europe, not too long ago actually, when outsiders where not welcome and blamed for that country's economy problems. 

BTW. House prices are sky high because of foreign buyers/investors from Russia, the far east and the middle east, nothing to do with a few Europeans coming here.

As the arch-proponent of immigration controls in this thread and therefore considered to be akin to that Germanic WWII dictator, maybe I should give you a little of my background. In manageable proportions i.e. non societal destroying quantities, I have no real issues.

When I grew up in Scotland many, many years ago I went to Catholic schools and unsurprisingly we had quite a few immigrants from Ireland and Europe represented. Now, the following names were all in my classes: Cavolini, Kasprowicz, Kaniewicz, Nikkopaciska (sp?), Dellaquaglia, Dolan, O'Brian, DeCecco, Bekker, Malone, Baruffatti, Murphy, Drozdziak and many more. All were well integrated and very much considered themselves to be Scots as far as I knew. Being a Polish/Candaian you should also know that many in your Polish country are a lot less enthusiastic about any immigration than myself.

There are NO benefits from mass immigration and it only offers future conflict. This was self evident on Westminster Bridge last week, in Brussels, in Paris, in Nice and all the other unrestricted immigration countries in Europe such as Sweden, Holland and so on. There is nothing sane about destroying the country of your birth. 

DomTom, we have had similar conversations with our French, Italian, Dutch and Polish friends who live here and feel exactly as you do. I voted remain but now am resigned to making the best of where we now are, and believe it's so important to protect those from other European countries who have made their lives here, and equally those UK citizens who have made their homes across the Channel.  

I've just been reading an article in today's Guardian that reiterates that the young overwhelmingly voted to remain, and that this decision was made by the old, for the old, and is being enacted by the old. The one positive is that as the leavers die off, feelings might change. 

It's a shame that some of the leavers on here seem so rabid in their responses and show no feeling for those who are genuinely upset. I can't abide Theresa May, but at least she is trying to unite the country in her approach. We really are all in this together, for good or for ill.

andarkian posted:

There are NO benefits from mass immigration and it only offers future conflict. This was self evident on Westminster Bridge last week, in Brussels, in Paris, in Nice and all the other unrestricted immigration countries in Europe such as Sweden, Holland and so on. There is nothing sane about destroying the country of your birth. 

You're right ... those people born in Kent shouldn't be permitted to immigrate to Birmingham ... and once in Birmingham the wall which should be build should keep them IN Birmingham!!

andarkian posted:

DomTomLondon posted:

Being a Polish/Canadian who has lived in London for over 10 years. Has worked (payed my taxes) and raised two beautiful children here, but might soon be kicked out of the country I've made my home. It's interesting to hear some people's views on here.  Kind of reminds me of another time in Europe, not too long ago actually, when outsiders where not welcome and blamed for that country's economy problems. 

BTW. House prices are sky high because of foreign buyers/investors from Russia, the far east and the middle east, nothing to do with a few Europeans coming here.

As the arch-proponent of immigration controls in this thread and therefore considered to be akin to that Germanic WWII dictator, maybe I should give you a little of my background. In manageable proportions i.e. non societal destroying quantities, I have no real issues.

When I grew up in Scotland many, many years ago I went to Catholic schools and unsurprisingly we had quite a few immigrants from Ireland and Europe represented. Now, the following names were all in my classes: Cavolini, Kasprowicz, Kaniewicz, Nikkopaciska (sp?), Dellaquaglia, Dolan, O'Brian, DeCecco, Bekker, Malone, Baruffatti, Murphy, Drozdziak and many more. All were well integrated and very much considered themselves to be Scots as far as I knew. Being a Polish/Candaian you should also know that many in your Polish country are a lot less enthusiastic about any immigration than myself.

There are NO benefits from mass immigration and it only offers future conflict. This was self evident on Westminster Bridge last week, in Brussels, in Paris, in Nice and all the other unrestricted immigration countries in Europe such as Sweden, Holland and so on. There is nothing sane about destroying the country of your birth. 

You are correct there are many in Poland and other European countries that are not very open to immigration, partly due to them being small minded (like the current Polish government), but also because for decades they were enclosed behind the iron curtain without much contact with other cultures or nationalities. This is changing now, but will take time and a new generation to change people's prejudices.

I do think that when one comes to a new country, they should make an effort to learn the language and integrate into that society (Although that doesn't mean they can't also keep their old traditions) when they want to make it their home. 

I'm no sure how mass immigration has anything to do with what happened in London last week, the attacker was British, and was presumably brainwashed while in prison. Which begs the question, why is this allowed to happen in the prison system in the first place.

yes, the movement of unrestricted immigrants from outside Europe was not thought out properly and could have been handled better to help those that actually needed shelter here. It's a shame that European governments couldn't all agree on a solution. 

DomTomLondon posted:

andarkian posted:

DomTomLondon posted:

Being a Polish/Canadian who has lived in London for over 10 years. Has worked (payed my taxes) and raised two beautiful children here, but might soon be kicked out of the country I've made my home. It's interesting to hear some people's views on here.  Kind of reminds me of another time in Europe, not too long ago actually, when outsiders where not welcome and blamed for that country's economy problems. 

BTW. House prices are sky high because of foreign buyers/investors from Russia, the far east and the middle east, nothing to do with a few Europeans coming here.

As the arch-proponent of immigration controls in this thread and therefore considered to be akin to that Germanic WWII dictator, maybe I should give you a little of my background. In manageable proportions i.e. non societal destroying quantities, I have no real issues.

When I grew up in Scotland many, many years ago I went to Catholic schools and unsurprisingly we had quite a few immigrants from Ireland and Europe represented. Now, the following names were all in my classes: Cavolini, Kasprowicz, Kaniewicz, Nikkopaciska (sp?), Dellaquaglia, Dolan, O'Brian, DeCecco, Bekker, Malone, Baruffatti, Murphy, Drozdziak and many more. All were well integrated and very much considered themselves to be Scots as far as I knew. Being a Polish/Candaian you should also know that many in your Polish country are a lot less enthusiastic about any immigration than myself.

There are NO benefits from mass immigration and it only offers future conflict. This was self evident on Westminster Bridge last week, in Brussels, in Paris, in Nice and all the other unrestricted immigration countries in Europe such as Sweden, Holland and so on. There is nothing sane about destroying the country of your birth. 

You are correct there are many in Poland and other European countries that are not very open to immigration, partly due to them being small minded (like the current Polish government), but also because for decades they were enclosed behind the iron curtain without much contact with other cultures or nationalities. This is changing now, but will take time and a new generation to change people's prejudices.

I do think that when one comes to a new country, they should make an effort to learn the language and integrate into that society (Although that doesn't mean they can't also keep their old traditions) when they want to make it their home. 

I'm no sure how mass immigration has anything to do with what happened in London last week, the attacker was British, and was presumably brainwashed while in prison. Which begs the question, why is this allowed to happen in the prison system in the first place.

yes, the movement of unrestricted immigrants from outside Europe was not thought out properly and could have been handled better to help those that actually needed shelter here. It's a shame that European governments couldn't all agree on a solution. 

You,  Eloise and HH are the Canutes of the world. You are in complete denial of the blatantly obvious. Your native country will never open itself up to mass immigration, nor any Eastern European country that has been subjugated by an occupying power for many years. By opening our borders to unarmed conquest and dilution does not make it any better.

If I decide to go back to Mumbai, my birth country was India, do you think that if I start to demand that my cultural or religious  needs should be considered higher than theirs, or if I demand translators because I can't speak the language or that I decide their legal practices were not for me that I would get very far? Because you read the delusional claptrap in the Guardian do you really that your values, opinions and knowledge is any better or broader than mine?  Oh, and talking of Mumbai did you read about the Nigerian man who was racially attacked there just last week? 

If you sew a minefield  and decide that walking through it with your eyes closed is just fine then do not be surprised what happens next. 

You seem very keen to throw insults. Why is that?

I can only hope that all of those in the present positions get their heads down and work hard with this.   Not bail out/get bailed out and leave it for someone else to sort out.   Pray that this will lead us in a position that will be an inspiration to the wide world to follow.

Hungryhalibut posted:

You seem very keen to throw insults. Why is that?

"It's a shame that some of the leavers on here seem so rabid" - Who wrote that? Oh yes, it was yourself. Typical Guardianista believes expressing unpalatable opinions is a one way privilege reserved for themselves. 

But you do come across as rabid and aggressive. It's not an insult, merely an observation. So - why are you behaving like that? 

Hungryhalibut posted:

But you do come across as rabid and aggressive. It's not an insult, merely an observation. So - why are you behaving like that? 

It's called a debate! Counter with some facts not faux indignation. 

Eloise posted:

Oh sorry ... I take it all back David Cameron was right to hold the referendum ... the great man has spoken and told us so!

Forgive me, Eloise, it was Paul Dacre.

Best, Chris

andarkian posted:

You,  Eloise and HH are the Canutes of the world. You are in complete denial of the blatantly obvious. Your native country will never open itself up to mass immigration, nor any Eastern European country that has been subjugated by an occupying power for many years. By opening our borders to unarmed conquest and dilution does not make it any better.

If I decide to go back to Mumbai, my birth country was India, do you think that if I start to demand that my cultural or religious  needs should be considered higher than theirs, or if I demand translators because I can't speak the language or that I decide their legal practices were not for me that I would get very far? Because you read the delusional claptrap in the Guardian do you really that your values, opinions and knowledge is any better or broader than mine?  Oh, and talking of Mumbai did you read about the Nigerian man who was racially attacked there just last week? 

If you sew a minefield  and decide that walking through it with your eyes closed is just fine then do not be surprised what happens next. 

You appear to be confused and think that I am saying there is no problem with immigration.  I'm not.  What I am saying is that the "solution" to the problems caused by immigration is NOT to stop immigration, but that the *national* government needs to work to ensure that everyone gets the benefits that immigration brings by providing a strong economy.

And nothing about this has anything to do with Mumbai and very little to do with what Poland does.  They are just as screwed up (more so) than the UK.  So don't justify what the UK should be doing by saying what they do.

The UK government have (to use your analogy) sewn a minefield.  Its up to the UK government to develop policies which enable us to walk through that minefield for the benefit of the country.  Instead they have allowed the problems to be hijacked and blamed the EU for sewing the minefield.  Leaving the EU (as I repeatedly try to get across) will not - in my opinion - in itself solve any of the problems.  

Yes; there may be a reduction in immigration (though the last announcements from the government suggests that is doubtful) but at what cost?

Eloise posted:

Yes; there may be a reduction in immigration (though the last announcements from the government suggests that is doubtful) but at what cost?

The difference which you invariably overlook is that inside the EU we cannot control immigration. Personally I believe immigration is out of control and has been for a decade or more. We constantly see news items about collapsing NHS and the need to build x thousand houses every week, but no one raises why this should be. The figures on immigration from outside the EU are likely to be accurate since these people require a visa. EU migration is just a guess and the fact remains that we have no control over this.

If countries like Bulgaria and Romania paid out benefits on a par with the UK this would not be an issue, but they dont. Added to this mix will be Albania soon. Doubtless these people can already apply for an EU "accession state" visa to claim the car wash they run is a legitimate business. The result of this is we have hundreds of thousands of people coming from poor countries in search of a better standard of living. The upshot is the NHS is collapsing and they now want to build on farmland. You ask at what cost the reduction in immigration will come at? Well what are you going to do when the NHS collapses plant some magic money trees? Have you no conception of just what a Ponzi scheme is?

Milton Friedman wisely observed that you can either have open borders or a welfare state. You cant have both. One truly laughable bit of nonsense that the remainicas trot out all the time is who will pick put fruit and veg? Who the hell do you think picked it in 2003 before the A7 joined? We issued work permits and when the season was over these people by and large went home. No one I know who voted leave expected to stop immigration. We just want the British governemnt to be in charge of who comes and who doesn't, not some foreign regime over which we have next to no control.

ltaylor posted:

Eloise posted:

Yes; there may be a reduction in immigration (though the last announcements from the government suggests that is doubtful) but at what cost?

The difference which you invariably overlook is that inside the EU we cannot control immigration. Personally I believe immigration is out of control and has been for a decade or more. We constantly see news items about collapsing NHS and the need to build x thousand houses every week, but no one raises why this should be. The figures on immigration from outside the EU are likely to be accurate since these people require a visa. EU migration is just a guess and the fact remains that we have no control over this.

If countries like Bulgaria and Romania paid out benefits on a par with the UK this would not be an issue, but they dont. Added to this mix will be Albania soon. Doubtless these people can already apply for an EU "accession state" visa to claim the car wash they run is a legitimate business. The result of this is we have hundreds of thousands of people coming from poor countries in search of a better standard of living. The upshot is the NHS is collapsing and they now want to build on farmland. You ask at what cost the reduction in immigration will come at? Well what are you going to do when the NHS collapses plant some magic money trees? Have you no conception of just what a Ponzi scheme is?

Milton Friedman wisely observed that you can either have open borders or a welfare state. You cant have both. One truly laughable bit of nonsense that the remainicas trot out all the time is who will pick put fruit and veg? Who the hell do you think picked it in 2003 before the A7 joined? We issued work permits and when the season was over these people by and large went home. No one I know who voted leave expected to stop immigration. We just want the British governemnt to be in charge of who comes and who doesn't, not some foreign regime over which we have next to no control.

OK, got it............AFAICT, the British Government WILL be in charge of who comes and who goes. However, according to David Davis on Question Time the other night, this could well mean MORE immigration that we currently have, not less. He didn't guarantee this, but he most certainly didn't deny it either. Now this doesn't bother me per-se. And for sure i'm glad it doesn't bother you or the rest of the Leave voters.

Don to the point on immigration... there could be more or less as the country sees fit... at least it will be up to our elected government and House of Parliament to decide... and can be changed if required..

DomTomLondon posted:

Being a Polish/Canadian who has lived in London for over 10 years. Has worked (payed my taxes) and raised two beautiful children here, butmight soon be kicked out of the country I've made my home. It's interesting to hear some people's views on here.  Kind of reminds me of another time in Europe, not too long ago actually, when outsiders where not welcome and blamed for that country's economy problems. 

BTW. House prices are sky high because of foreign buyers/investors from Russia, the far east and the middle east, nothing to do with a few Europeans coming here.

I wouldn't worry. The PM has made it abundantly clear that she intends to allow Europeans who are already established here, to remain as full members of our society..........provided the EU agrees to a reciprocal agreement with respect to UK citizens living in the EU. It would be the fault of the EU, if this were not to happen. I can't see the EU letting such an issue be seen as their fault. A couple of weeks ago, my MP assured me that this issue WILL be resolved sensibly and established EU citizens will be completely free to remain. Unfortunately, we are talking about politicians, not estate agents

FWIW, I would have much preferred if TM had made a unilateral declaration that established EU Citizens were welcome to remain in the UK.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Don to the point on immigration... there could be more or less as the country sees fit... at least it will be up to our elected government and House of Parliament to decide... and can be changed if required..

Simon, you are correct. But immigration will not fundamentally change. And c.6 million people put that as their main reason for voting "Leave". They are going to be disappointed, along with a few million more who had it high on their list, although not top.

Don Atkinson posted:

ltaylor posted:

Eloise posted:

Yes; there may be a reduction in immigration (though the last announcements from the government suggests that is doubtful) but at what cost?

 

 

OK, got it............AFAICT, the British Government WILL be in charge of who comes and who goes. However, according to David Davis on Question Time the other night, this could well mean MORE immigration that we currently have, not less. He didn't guarantee this, but he most certainly didn't deny it either. Now this doesn't bother me per-se. And for sure i'm glad it doesn't bother you or the rest of the Leave voters.

ltaylor's  comment was sound, solid, sensible, balanced and I applaud it wholeheartedly.

David Davis does not fancy having both his feet held to the fire so is promising nothing at this moment in time. Leavers are not crying hysterically with every announcement and pronouncement, at least I haven't really noticed them doing this so far. Actually, most of the embarrassing, hysterical nonsense seems to be coming from our so called politicians, the majority of them bitter and twisted in being thwarted by the electorate, aided and abetted by the BBC.

How is this all going to work out? Well, you can jump out of the lifeboat and rejoin the EUTitanic or start to help rowing to a new sanctuary. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Don to the point on immigration... there could be more or less as the country sees fit... at least it will be up to our elected government and House of Parliament to decide... and can be changed if required..

Simon, you are correct. But immigration will not fundamentally change. And c.6 million people put that as their main reason for voting "Leave". They are going to be disappointed, along with a few million more who had it high on their list, although not top.

Don you may well be right.. however I think you know the immigration point was a side show for me.. it was all about sovereignty of parliament... but I am probably in a minority..