Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

One of my acquaintances at the top of the Civil Aviation Authority has this week clarified the Government's position regarding Aviation and Brexit. It boils down to :-

“We don't know what to do for the best and we don't know whether the negotiations will allow us to do what we think is best, if we ever manage to decide what would be best"

 

[...]

Does anybody have better news regarding their  industry ?

I was reading reflections from Vince Cable ... now take his words with a pinch of salt if you will, sour grapes even ... but he was saying that during the coalition period, TM was more interested in doing things for the appearance than for practical reasons.

This perhaps explains some of the government's current thinking on Brexit.  They know that on things like aviation it would be best just to sign up to EU regulations, but for the sake of appearances they refuse to as that would require rolling back on the promise of leaving all EU institutions.

So regardless of the harm done, TM is determined to leave EU completely.

 

Anybody who thought that TM supported Cameron really needed to remove their blinkers ...

'I'll support you as my party leader. I'll serve in your cabinet and speak up in support of your policies. I'll say publicly that I think staying in the EU is best for the UK.'  

Then, within months.

'I'll reverse many of Cameron's policies. I'll take the party to the right. I'll do a u-turn on Brexit.'

Is that sort of integrity what you to see in a Prime Minister? Hmmm.

 

You expect politicians to say what they mean and mean what they say? Are you serious? It is more useful and practical to take note of what they don't say ...

I expect a Prime Minister to stand up for our nation, our nation's culture and values and be resolute in doing so.

 

How do you reconcile your statement  with what I said above, ie HMG's position at present is :-

“We don't know what to do for the best and we don't know whether the negotiations will allow us to do what we think is best, if we ever manage to decide what would be best"

Your mate's anecdotal claims are nothing to do with HMG's position. They are just your mate's anecdotal claims - and you trying to imbue them with some authority in here is just laughable. That's how it is reconciled ...

ynwa250505 posted:

Your mate's anecdotal claims are nothing to do with HMG's position. They are just your mate's anecdotal claims - and you trying to imbue them with some authority in here is just laughable. That's how it is reconciled ...

Not so. Please read what I said. 

My aquaintance is dealing with HMG. I have summarised the current situation regarding aviation.

I am merely asking if others have reliable information regarding other industries ?

I appreciate you don't.

ynwa250505 posted:

MDS posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

One of my acquaintances at the top of the Civil Aviation Authority has this week clarified the Government's position regarding Aviation and Brexit. It boils down to :-

“We don't know what to do for the best and we don't know whether the negotiations will allow us to do what we think is best, if we ever manage to decide what would be best"

 

[...]

Does anybody have better news regarding their  industry ?

I was reading reflections from Vince Cable ... now take his words with a pinch of salt if you will, sour grapes even ... but he was saying that during the coalition period, TM was more interested in doing things for the appearance than for practical reasons.

This perhaps explains some of the government's current thinking on Brexit.  They know that on things like aviation it would be best just to sign up to EU regulations, but for the sake of appearances they refuse to as that would require rolling back on the promise of leaving all EU institutions.

So regardless of the harm done, TM is determined to leave EU completely.

 

Anybody who thought that TM supported Cameron really needed to remove their blinkers ...

'I'll support you as my party leader. I'll serve in your cabinet and speak up in support of your policies. I'll say publicly that I think staying in the EU is best for the UK.'  

Then, within months.

'I'll reverse many of Cameron's policies. I'll take the party to the right. I'll do a u-turn on Brexit.'

Is that sort of integrity what you to see in a Prime Minister? Hmmm.

 

You expect politicians to say what they mean and mean what they say? Are you serious? It is more useful and practical to take note of what they don't say ...

I expect a Prime Minister to stand up for our nation, our nation's culture and values and be resolute in doing so.

 

I expect politicians to be both ruthless and 'flexible' when dealing with their political opponents. Both sides know the rules of the game. However, the example I used above was, as our US cousins might express it, 'blue-on-blue'.  

If the outcome of the General Election is similar to the Exit Poll, I recommend that we put Brexit on Hols, until we sort ourselves out !

Exit poll suggests to me that "the People" are not keen on a "Hard" Brexit.

Are we really convinced that we actually want ANY form of Brexit ?

Tbh Don I think 'we the people' probably are convinced, at least as things stand. My sense (which may of course be entirely inaccurate) is that even less committed remainers have now accepted Brexit & want someone, whoever it is, to just get in with it.

That doesn't mean that 'we' won't oppose a hard Brexit, though. 

Regardless of what a potential next government is going to negotiate or even if there is another EU referendum, the article 50 was triggered, is legally effective and cannot be un-triggered? Or can it?

jfritzen posted:

Regardless of what a potential next government is going to negotiate or even if there is another EU referendum, the article 50 was triggered, is legally effective and cannot be un-triggered? Or can it?

It can be reversed (according to the person who actually wrote Article 50) ... but politically it would be impossible to reverse it.

Personally I think May and Corbyn need to agree to work together on a common vision for Brexit.  Something which will be supported by the majority of parliament; though it would upset hard line Conservative Brexiteers.

I like Jean-Claude Juncker's comments in reply to the question "can the period for Brexit talks be extended?" ... "before they can be extended; first they have to start!"

I think the election result will actually be good for Brexit. There will be a pause of course while the UK government gets its act together but since the ultimate deal will need to be blessed by a parliament where no one party can bludgeon through its view, I think we'll now see a more moderate, evenly balanced negotiation, and hopefully one conducted in a more collaborative spirit, which is always a better way if partners are to work together co-operatively for many years ahead (the scars from 'winners' and 'losers' can poison such long-term relationships).  So I think the hard-right Brexiteers in the Tory party will be feeling very unhappy at the moment.  Their loss is the UK's gain.  

Well said MDS.

MDS posted:

I think the election result will actually be good for Brexit. There will be a pause of course while the UK government gets its act together but since the ultimate deal will need to be blessed by a parliament where no one party can bludgeon through its view, I think we'll now see a more moderate, evenly balanced negotiation, and hopefully one conducted in a more collaborative spirit, which is always a better way if partners are to work together co-operatively for many years ahead (the scars from 'winners' and 'losers' can poison such long-term relationships).  So I think the hard-right Brexiteers in the Tory party will be feeling very unhappy at the moment.  Their loss is the UK's gain.  

Hi Mike,

I agree that what you say is what should happen, and is what I hope will happen.

However, I don't see the hard-right Brexiteers in the Tory Party co-operating too easily, never mind feeling unhappy.

As I see it at the moment, the PM has to persuade an awfull lot of "groups" to co-operate on Brexit. This will hopefull drive the more moderate, evenly balanced negotiations that many of us consider to be better that the previously planned "Hard-Brexit".

The Hard-right Tory Brexiteers number about 50 IMHO. The DUP will drive for massive concessions in NI in the face of Sinn Fein. The Tory MPs in Scotland will go with a Moderate Brexit (as will the SNP, but the SNP won't vote with the Tories) but again, there will be difficult internal Scottish concessions demanded. The 12 LibDems will support a moderate brexit. But that still leaves the PM with a shortfall of support (given her own party 50 hard-right disenters). She will need to garner cross-party support from Labour to succeed with her Brexit negotiations, and these Labour votes (I recon she will need about a hundred of them) will come at a price - literally - in terms of spending on the NHS, Police, education, etc

But let's not worry about going "Bankrupt" as Simon and a few others are worried about in the "Labour" thread...............we will soon have £350m pw to spend our way out of austerity...............

..............or at least Boris will !!!

Just noticed SNP proposal to continue promoting Scotland in the EU and suggesting that England, Wales and Ireland would be welcome to join them in negotiations with the EU.

Alternatively they suggest all negotiations should involve all four nations through the Joint negotiation Committee.

Sounds like a good start ?

Don, I agree that TM still has the problem of 50 or so hard-Brexiteers in her party (inc the Secretary of State for Brexit) but since Corbyn has pledged Labour to support Brexit, but on softer terms, I think there's room for some cross-party co-operation that will nullify those 50.    

It maybe that TM will continue to lean towards a hard Brexit but given the choice between softening her position on Brexit or being ousted as PM, either by her own party or through a no confidence vote, I suspect she will compromise on the former.  Happily in this scenario what I think will be her instinct for survival co-incides with what is best for the UK.   At least, that's what I hope will happen.

Mike,

I think you are right, at least, I hope you are.

TM doesn't look like she is listening to the People or the moderate MPs who represent us. She is listening to the Hard Right which IMHO is where her heart is. Hopefully, Ruth Davidson and a few determined Conservative MPs will make it clear that a hard brexit is no longer on the cards.

I was appalled at John Redwood's opening remarks on Jeremy Vine's programme today.

His presumption that because 85% of the votes last week went to the Conservatives and Labour, both of whom had manifetos stating they would lead us out of the EU, meant 85% of the voters had given him and his cohorts the RIGHT to take us RIGHT out of the EU. This looked like a Rock-Hard Brexit never mind a hard brexit !

What a patronising little git he is.

Unfortunately, I don't think he is alone and I rather suspect that TM is ahead of Gove, Mogg, Davies and Johnson in the line-up !

10:00 BST (11:00 in Europe) and these vital negotiations start.

IMHO, about three-quarters of the UK population is sleepwalking out of Europe. (most of the Brexit voters plus those  Remain voters who have abandoned all hope)

The other quarter is watching a nightmare unfold, and wondering how the hell we can either get the sleepwalkers to wake up, or mitigate the inevitable cliff-edge to which we are all being dragged.

At the head of the sleepwalkers is TM and David Davis. Closely followed Gove and his fellow pall-bearers, surrounded by Boris and his troupe of frollicking Morris-dancers, prancing around the sombre pall-bearers..

Hammond seems to be the only main-stream MP willing to challenge the PM's approach.

Don Atkinson posted:

I was appalled at John Redwood's opening remarks on Jeremy Vine's programme today.

Don, I'm appalled that you are listening to Jeremy Vine. Really, you've let yourself go  ;-)

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I was appalled at John Redwood's opening remarks on Jeremy Vine's programme today.

Don, I'm appalled that you are listening to Jeremy Vine. Really, you've let yourself go  ;-)

I was going to say you have the twin delights of Ed Miliband to come this week (apparently they wanted to address the email to D.Miliband but they caught the wrong key on the keyboard) and then Iain Duncan Smith next week ... but that might suggest I also have listened to Jeremy Vine!

I can't claim any credit for the following ... but liked it summing up the day David Davis is planning...

I am having a big day too.

I am walking out on the wife, I am divorcing her. I will however want half her wages, half her pension, to remain living in the house with her and the kids and to have sex three times a week. I also anticipate 3x hot meals each week.

She is being very unreasonable about this and keeps saying "divorce means divorce". What is wrong with her? It is this unreasonable behaviour of hers that made me want to leave her in the first place.

Based on the BBC news reports tonight, I am not happy with the way the Gov seems determined to go with Brexit.

Philip Hammond (and the Governor of the Bank of England) seem to be the only significant figures pushing the concept that jobs and the economy are the key factors. It seems that Liam Fox was talking on behalf of the negotiating team when he talked about "controlling" EU immigration as the key issue, not the economy. But even so, "controlling" EU immigration seems to be a sop to those hard-nosed Brexiteers who want to "stop" EU immigration. They will be disappointed, but for no net-benefit in terms of the economy.

It seems to me that TM is listening to Gove, Redwood, Mogg and Johnson rather more than mainstream Tories and centre-right Labour MPs. If so, I think she might have difficulty getting a majority vote at the end of the Brexit talks. Hasn't she realised that she really does need to listen to what mainstream politicians are telling her is the mood of the nation ?

Let's hope she wakes up soon !

Don't worry Don,

i'm sure when we get a re-EU referendum vote the people will come to their senses and vote to remain in the EU where we will be far better off.

Debs

There's an interesting sounding Brexit-centric interview coming up on R4 in a few minutes - Davis' former chief of staff is being interviewed for the Week in Westminster, which starts at 11.

I won't be able to watch it, but Newsnight seems to be discussing the possibility of a Brexit REVERSAL !