Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Didn't go quite that far, Don. Some unattributable tittle-tattle, nothing of substance. Newsnight mainly featured some Tory's (Maude) talking about pursuing a Norway model, newly labelled 'soft Brexit'.   

Thanks Mike,

Just shows how even the BBC can turn a "nothingness" into an attention-grabbing headline.

No wonder journalism is fast loosing its credability.

Don, IMO there's no 'even' about it.

What a patronising little git this Owen Paterson fellow is - IMHO of course. As illustrated by the BBC.....

His comments were dismissed by leading Eurosceptic Conservative MP Owen Paterson, who said Sir Vince was just "chucking buckets of water around" and ignoring the "huge vote" in favour of leaving in the referendum and at the general election, where the two main parties backed Brexit.

"Vince Cable's party went down in votes, as did the other little parties who want to stay in the European Union," he told the BBC's Sunday Politics.

He simply cannot be allowed to claim that the referendum delivered a "huge vote" in favour of leaving and even more so, he can't claim the election delivered a "huge vote" for Brexit simply because c. 85% of us voted for the two main parties, who each "backed" brexit. The election, if anything, suggested quite the opposite.

The use of respectable  language seems to me to have deteriorated in Parliament recently......

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has told MPs the European Union can "go whistle" for any "extortionate" final payment from the UK on Brexit.

And he said that the government had "no plan" for what to do in the event of no deal being agreed with the EU.

He said: "The sums I have seen that they propose to demand from this country appear to be extortionate."

"Go whistle seems to me to be an entirely appropriate expression," he added.

The foreign secretary was responding to a question from backbench MP Philip Hollobone, who urged him to tell the EU they could "go whistle" if they wanted "a penny piece more" than the money the UK had already paid to the EU since 1973.

IMHO the whole thing seems to be a shambles.

What a bloody shambles.............(from the BBC website)

In response to suggestions that the UK could face a "divorce" bill from the EU of c.100bn Euro....

..............Mr Johnson (Boris to you and me) denied reports Chancellor Philip Hammond and First Secretary of State Damian Green had said there will be a transition period of at least three years after Brexit, when the UK will remain under the jurisdiction of the Europe Court of Justice.

And he was asked if there was a strategy, either public or private, for what would happen if there was no agreement on Brexit.

"There is no plan for no deal because we are going to get a great deal," he replied.

His comments come after No 10 sources played down suggestions that Theresa May plans to walk out of Brexit talks in September to show defiance over EU demands for a divorce bill worth tens of billions of pounds.

Mrs May has said that her view going into the Brexit negotiations was that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Mr Johnson's comments seem to be at odds with Brexit Secretary David Davis, who told the BBC last month that the government had "worked up in detail" the "no deal" option on Brexit.

Can a few of the "Brexiteers" on this forum, please give us Remainers a crumb of assurance that the Brexit negotiations are firmly under control, that we will leave with dignity and an excellent deal and that the future beyond Brexit is well on track for guaranteed increased prosperity in a country free from hordes of immigrants.

Sorry, Don, but you won't get any reassurance! We're up sh*t creek and T May has lost the paddle. The extreme Brexiteers in the Tory party just pile delusion on delusion - see your quote from Paterson. And I heard one the other day claiming something like a 'massive' majority for exit in the referendum. The trouble is that the more they bump up against reality the more hysterical the 'democracy' claims will become. You might be interested in the Independent's report called 'You should read Japan's Brexit note to Britain — it's brutal' - read it and weep!

Clive

Just heard that Rhodri Colwyn Philipps (4th Viscount St Davids) has been found guilty on two of the charges he faced in respect of his obnoxious, racist and threatening comments about Gina Miller. 

Hopefully, his aristocratic background and wealth won't save him from the sentence that he fully deserves. I would personally be very happy to lock him up and throw away the key. A thoroughly obnoxious man!

Don Atkinson posted:

The use of respectable  language seems to me to have deteriorated in Parliament recently......

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has told MPs the European Union can "go whistle" for any "extortionate" final payment from the UK on Brexit.

And he said that the government had "no plan" for what to do in the event of no deal being agreed with the EU.

He said: "The sums I have seen that they propose to demand from this country appear to be extortionate."

"Go whistle seems to me to be an entirely appropriate expression," he added.

The foreign secretary was responding to a question from backbench MP Philip Hollobone, who urged him to tell the EU they could "go whistle" if they wanted "a penny piece more" than the money the UK had already paid to the EU since 1973.

IMHO the whole thing seems to be a shambles.

Don,

It was an utterly ridiculous comment for Boris to make, and one that was certainly not designed to build bridges and work towards a sensible compromise in respect of the British exit from the EU.  

It is blatantly obvious that Boris is grandstanding, and that his  remarks are aimed directly at the 'Hard' Brexiteers of the Tory party as he begins his own campaign for another go at the leadership of the Tory party.

Don’t worry ... David Davis put it all in perspective...

He brushed aside Boris Johnson’s claim that the EU could “go whistle” over its Brexit bill demand. (See 1pm.) Asked about this, he said:

Bluntly, I wouldn’t worry. I mean you will have to get the foreign secretary here to explain his views if you really wanted to. I’m not going to comment on other ministers.

He also said that people in Brussels took what they saw in British papers “if anything, too seriously”.

 The mind boggles!  What do they think they are doing!

The UK's negotiating position was never strong, despite the strident utterances of senior Brexiteer politicians and some Press since June of last year.  Continued posturing since the debacle of the recent election is almost laughable, save for the issues being so serious.  The UK's position is now obviously weaker. How could it not be so? The PM calls an election saying she needed to get a big majority so that she could get her Brexit deal through both houses; and now she has no majority and little authority. The EU commission, EU parliament and other 27 member states see this and know they now hold all the cards.

Threats of 'no deal' don't carry credibility in my view. One has only to start examining the possible consequences to see what folly this would be.  Falling back on WTO tariffs is simplistic. A willingness of all parties to make the arrangements work is vitally important. If the UK leaves the EU in bad blood, e.g. refusing to pay its dues to financial commitments it has freely entered into, why should other member states help make it work? What will the French customs and immigration controls do in relation to the vast amount of traffic that flows daily to and from Dover and via the Tunnel.  It would only take a slight 'rules-based' approach and the port of Dover and the M20 would grind to a halt. And what about the French authorities current efforts to prevent illegal immigrants from boarding UK-bound trains and  trucks? What will that mean for UK's channel ports? In my view an acrimonious 'divorce' from the EU would be catastrophic and the effects very quickly and visibly apparent.   We have to have a negotiated deal.

Completely agree MDS.  Look at what Spain do with a strict rules based approach to Spain - Gibraltar border.

Eloise posted:

Completely agree MDS.  Look at what Spain do with a strict rules based approach to Spain - Gibraltar border.

Yes, Eloise. Gibraltar is another good example and I bet the government there knows it.

Don Atkinson posted:

What a bloody shambles.............(from the BBC website)

In response to suggestions that the UK could face a "divorce" bill from the EU of c.100bn Euro....

..............Mr Johnson (Boris to you and me) denied reports Chancellor Philip Hammond and First Secretary of State Damian Green had said there will be a transition period of at least three years after Brexit, when the UK will remain under the jurisdiction of the Europe Court of Justice.

And he was asked if there was a strategy, either public or private, for what would happen if there was no agreement on Brexit.

"There is no plan for no deal because we are going to get a great deal," he replied.

His comments come after No 10 sources played down suggestions that Theresa May plans to walk out of Brexit talks in September to show defiance over EU demands for a divorce bill worth tens of billions of pounds.

Mrs May has said that her view going into the Brexit negotiations was that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Mr Johnson's comments seem to be at odds with Brexit Secretary David Davis, who told the BBC last month that the government had "worked up in detail" the "no deal" option on Brexit.

Can a few of the "Brexiteers" on this forum, please give us Remainers a crumb of assurance that the Brexit negotiations are firmly under control, that we will leave with dignity and an excellent deal and that the future beyond Brexit is well on track for guaranteed increased prosperity in a country free from hordes of immigrants.

10 days on, and clearly all the brexiteers on this forum have gone into hiding. And IMHO, not surprising.

Even Gove, one of the hardest of brexiteers, is in that group of business men and leaders who want a "transition" period because "we (ie they) need European labour".

Now, I don't have a problem with the free movement of people (I voted to Remain) but I think an awful lot of brexit voters are going to be"disappointed" with the above position within the brexit team.

So, are any of you dormant brexiteers able to provide that "crumb of assurance" ?

Listening to Philip Hammond and Liam Fox (and others) I get the impression that Brexit is drifting along with little direction. 

Any perceived direction seems to be purely emotional as opposed to       Carefull consideration of any likely consequences.

Or am I being unjustly pessimistic ?

What do you think of the Anti-Brexit party idea, Don, anyone? A former Tory adviser has suggested the name, The Democrats, which even as a remainer, I smiled at.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

What do you think of the Anti-Brexit party idea, Don, anyone? A former Tory adviser has suggested the name, The Democrats, which even as a remainer, I smiled at.

C.

....is that a hy-brid word formed from Democracy and Rats.....

More worryingly, I did notice a group calling itself the Pro-Brexit Party. They are lobbying every voter in Philip Hammond's constituency, and a few other ministers' constituencies to have their MP de-selected. On the grounds that such "Remainer" MPs are perceived as trying to block or hamper the Brexit demand of the 52%.

As one of the 48%, I am now beginning to fear the inevitable Firing Squads of the impatient 52%.

How about partition? I could go and live in a country having 48% of the UK population and being in the EU.

Dozey posted:

How about partition? I could go and live in a country having 48% of the UK population and being in the EU.

Perhaps we could all move to Scotland.......?

I’m starting to think Dead Ringers is a documentary...

Prime minister, it's your Brexit bulldog here...

Don, weren't you part of a consultation about Brexit going forwards? What happened to that (if you can say)?

Dave***t posted:

Prime minister, it's your Brexit bulldog here...

 

Don, weren't you part of a consultation about Brexit going forwards? What happened to that (if you can say)?

That's right Dave. European Aviation Safety Agency - EASA. Co-ordinated all the aviation rules for the EU(28) + 4. But each State has its own Differences.

The Great Repeal Bill will cascade the the whole of the EASA documentation into UK Law. We will leave the EU and we will Leave EASA ie we will leave behind the remaining 27 + Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Lichtenstein and go our own way. Not my recommendation. Others had suggested we adopt the FAA (USA) rules. I think many of us considered that we choose either EASA or FAA and stick with their rules, using whatever influence we have (and we have contributed the greatest input to EASA these past 10 years). It is my opinion that along with the other four outsiders, we would continue to be the dominant force within EASA, even outside the EU.

But, at present the plan is to leave EASA but adopt their Rules until we decide to modify them to suit ourselves. No further influence over how the EU develops the rules in future. At least, this is how things stand at present. Not entirely sure that David Davis will stick with the current policy. He seems to be trying to get his head around quite a few issues at present.

Not sure how this all will sit with the Open Sky situation we have at present.

So, to distill the above.  There are two main relevant bodies, one of which we've been an influential member of for some time.  We could have probably either remained a member of that, or become a member of the other body.  Each of these possibilities would allow us to influence the body we would be a member of in the future.

But we've currently chosen to be a member of neither.  And if things turn out that way, we will probably still have to comply with the rules set by such bodies, but will have no influence over them.

Is that about right?  Because it sounds like the worst of all the available options.

Don Atkinson posted:

Dozey posted:

How about partition? I could go and live in a country having 48% of the UK population and being in the EU.

Perhaps we could all move to Scotland.......?

You'd all (well, almost all) be welcomed.

Just heard the first couple of sensible proposals by the Brexit negotiators - about time. They may well be pipe-dreams, but at least the proposals for post Brexit to A) have no physical border checkpoints between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and B) have no visa requirements for travel between the UK and the EU, introduce for the first time a little bit of common sense to proceedings.