Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 Brexit Tory Britain will become a tax haven after leaving the EU. 

I'm sure many Tories would love that Debs. But the thing is, we can vote the Tories out if we choose to do so. So it might not.

But we have no say in whether Messers Jucker, Schulz, Timmermans, Draghi et al stay or go.

I notice that you didn't condemn the fact that Lux is a tax haven, you just moaned about the Tories and Brexit. Do you think that it is right that the Luxemourg government and the EU leadership allow this to continue? Do you really think that the EU provides any kind of real bulwark against the excesses of modern capitalism? Really?

Kev, i notice that you agree that any underhand tax avoidance that may or may not be going on in Luxembourg may happily continue completely unchallenged, and quite incredibility you're quite happy to want the UK to become another off shore tax haven!

Like most good people in the UK i strongly believe we need to remain in the EU and to use a determined influence to stop all greed and underhand capitalist corruption. The Tory administrated EU referendum of last year was undemocratic farce. Huge Brexit lies and whoppers! People who voted Brexit stupidly believed we'd save loads of money which would all be spent on the NHS - but now the shit has hit the fan with the inconvenient fact the NHS is far more likely to get privatised under the dictatorship of Brexit Fascist Little Britain. In reality the cost of living in the UK will rise massively for most so a very few greedy can fill their boots totally unchallenged by the EU or UK parliament.

We urgently need a re-vote now that people can more easily see the crap we'll have to put with, Fascist Tories devaluing of human rights, workers rights, employment law, equality, ridding the UK of all this so called 'red tape' that is wake up and smell the coffee ruthless dogma of this new and outrageous right wing populist Tory government. They didn't even win the last General Election in any sense of fair play, you only need to look at the Billion £ they stole off the hard working UK  tax payer to illegally bribe the bigot DUPs to see how corrupt these horrible power grab Brexit Tory Fascists are.

And now hysteria.

thebigfredc posted:

And now hysteria.

And now ad hominem.

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of the 52% voter because they thought the Remain vote was a certainty, but wanted to teach Cameron a lesson by reducing the Re ain't majority. 

52% of anything is not an overwhelming majority and cannot possibly justify any form of extreme Brexit.

1. so you say ... ho hum ...

2. a 4% difference is a chasm in EU referendum terms and the question posed concerned "exit". Adjectives like "extreme" etc weren't in the question. This is just post-referendum wriggling by those who want to remain in the EU.

So as TM says, "Brexit means Brexit" and the sooner we leave, the better because then we can start the process of agreeing trade treaties and generally getting on with life outside the EU . Have you seen Juncker's latest vision for the EU? Talk about an expansion of the problems! As I said, you couldn't invent this stuff ...

naim_nymph posted:

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 Brexit Tory Britain will become a tax haven after leaving the EU. 

I'm sure many Tories would love that Debs. But the thing is, we can vote the Tories out if we choose to do so. So it might not.

But we have no say in whether Messers Jucker, Schulz, Timmermans, Draghi et al stay or go.

I notice that you didn't condemn the fact that Lux is a tax haven, you just moaned about the Tories and Brexit. Do you think that it is right that the Luxemourg government and the EU leadership allow this to continue? Do you really think that the EU provides any kind of real bulwark against the excesses of modern capitalism? Really?

 

Kev, i notice that you agree that any underhand tax avoidance that may or may not be going on in Luxembourg may happily continue completely unchallenged, and quite incredibility you're quite happy to want the UK to become another off shore tax haven!

Like most good people in the UK i strongly believe we need to remain in the EU and to use a determined influence to stop all greed and underhand capitalist corruption. The Tory administrated EU referendum of last year was undemocratic farce. Huge Brexit lies and whoppers! People who voted Brexit stupidly believed we'd save loads of money which would all be spent on the NHS - but now the shit has hit the fan with the inconvenient fact the NHS is far more likely to get privatised under the dictatorship of Brexit Fascist Little Britain. In reality the cost of living in the UK will rise massively for most so a very few greedy can fill their boots totally unchallenged by the EU or UK parliament.

We urgently need a re-vote now that people can more easily see the crap we'll have to put with, Fascist Tories devaluing of human rights, workers rights, employment law, equality, ridding the UK of all this so called 'red tape' that is wake up and smell the coffee ruthless dogma of this new and outrageous right wing populist Tory government. They didn't even win the last General Election in any sense of fair play, you only need to look at the Billion £ they stole off the hard working UK  tax payer to illegally bribe the bigot DUPs to see how corrupt these horrible power grab Brexit Tory Fascists are.

Can you see planet earth from where you are?

It is all good , folks! Ringo, that guy from that pop band and the genius who wrote that marterpice - Octopus's Garden - tell us to get on with it as people have voted for Brexit. BTW, he lives in LA and did NOT vote. STFU!

What a punt(sic!)!

How about Branson who lives on a Carribean island that wants us to stay in..........and wants lots of aid, despite being a billionaire and could fund a lot himself, if he was really committed.

Both Ringo and Branson are irrelevant

naim_nymph posted:

Kev, i notice that you agree that any underhand tax avoidance that may or may not be going on in Luxembourg may happily continue completely unchallenged, and quite incredibility you're quite happy to want the UK to become another off shore tax haven!

Like most good people in the UK i strongly believe we need to remain in the EU and to use a determined influence to stop all greed and underhand capitalist corruption. The Tory administrated EU referendum of last year was undemocratic farce. Huge Brexit lies and whoppers! People who voted Brexit stupidly believed we'd save loads of money which would all be spent on the NHS - but now the shit has hit the fan with the inconvenient fact the NHS is far more likely to get privatised under the dictatorship of Brexit Fascist Little Britain. In reality the cost of living in the UK will rise massively for most so a very few greedy can fill their boots totally unchallenged by the EU or UK parliament.

This really is hysterical nonsense, and I suggest you go off and lie down for a few days as you're in danger of sounding at best shrill and at worst, completely desperate.

You have also misunderstood - perhaps deliberately - what I said. There's nothing underhand about what goes on in Lux, it's all perfectly legal, and that's the point. All sanctioned by the EU - which, incidentally, has done nothing to protect workers against enforced zero hour contracts in the UK and other member countries.

One of the EU's much-trumpeted "freedoms", "freedom of movement", sounds great on paper, but is little more than a legally-enshrined green light for large corporations to move people from place to place as they see fit; in other words, the commodification of human beings as a form of transferable capital.

Your devotion to The Project is almost touching, but I'm afraid it is naive and misplaced. The EU is not really a bulwark against the excesses of modern capitalism, it is actually an enabler of it.

Take TTIP, which is still on the table. If you don't know what it is, then there's a handy summary on Wikipedia here. A quick search on Google (other search engines are available) will reveal more. It is quite horrific - and it's an agreement (largely negotiated in secret - so much for transparency eh?) between the EU and the US. Not the US and the Tories, but your beloved EU. And nobody gets to vote on it.  It represents a greater threat to our NHS than the Tories do. Fortunately, it looks as if the UK will be leaving the EU before TTIP or some mutation of it, gets the green light from Brussels and Strasbourg.

You also persist with the erroneous assumption that Brexit is somehow driven exclusively by the Tories/UKIP; whereas in fact there are rmainers withing the Tories and Brexiters in the Labour Party. In fact, all political parties except UKIP and the Fib Dumbs are split to varying degrees on the issue. Also, there has been a strong stream of anti-EEC/EU within the British Left since the 1960s - Tony Benn was a famous example, as are those arch Tories, Jezza Corbyn and Dennis Skinner. 

And do you know what's the worst thing about it all? It's not your view that the UK should stay in the EU, that's a perfectly valid position for someone to take; no, it's your shrill insistence that everyone who voted to leave was a knuckle-dragging Tory racist; and that you are somehow more enlightened being because you want to remain. You are not. You are no better and no worse than anyone else.

Self-righteousness and moral superiority are not a good look, they really aren't.

naim_nymph posted

 We urgently need a re-vote now that people can more easily see the crap we'll have to put with,

Let us say there is another referendum next Thursday, and the result is roughly the same as it was last time. Would you then be satisfied? Or would we need to keep re-running the thing until the electorate give you the result you want?

Do write in with your views. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be interested in your answer.

Kevin-W posted:

 

This really is hysterical nonsense, and I suggest you go off and lie down for a few days

you're in danger of sounding at best shrill and at worst, completely desperate.

You have also misunderstood - 

Your devotion to The Project is almost touching, but..

Take TTIP, which is still on the table. If you don't know what it is...

You also persist with the erroneous assumption

And do you know what's the worst thing about it all?

It's not your view

it's your shrill insistence 

and that you are somehow more enlightened being because you want to remain.

You are not.

You are no better and no worse than anyone else.

 

 

Above  ^  typical textbook Brexit bullying mantra highlights in reply in typical ad hominem diatribe.

It's a shame Remain supporters are so frequently vilified for simply stating the facts of the bungling great Brexit Shenanigan issue.

It's also a disgrace how hate crime and bullying has soared though the roof since June 23rd last year...

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted

 We urgently need a re-vote now that people can more easily see the crap we'll have to put with,

Let us say there is another referendum next Thursday, and the result is roughly the same as it was last time. Would you then be satisfied? Or would we need to keep re-running the thing until the electorate give you the result you want?

Do write in with your views. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be interested in your answer.

Bring it on i say! : )

But this time lets be up front and honest, probably better to get to the ballot box asap [ 6 weeks time? ] so without having to suffer too much of the bus slogans tripe and politician's campaign bull all over again.

And let 16 & 17 year olds have the vote! - it is their future after all.

The People by now will have seen enough of Liar May, Dodgy Davies and Bonkers Boris, and would IMO vote a Remain win landslide.

However, sadly in reality, they [the Tory Brexit Government] know this already and would never ever allow an 2nd EU referendum vote. Their power grabbing frenzy is heavily reliant on maintaining the outcome of last June 23rd.

naim_nymph posted:

 

Bring it on i say! : )

But this time lets be up front and honest, probably better to get to the ballot box asap [ 6 weeks time? ] so without having to suffer too much of the bus slogans tripe and politician's campaign bull all over again.

And let 16 & 17 year olds have the vote! - it is their future after all.

The People by now will have seen enough of Liar May, Dodgy Davies and Bonkers Boris, and would IMO vote a Remain win landslide.

However, sadly in reality, they [the Tory Brexit Government] know this already and would never ever allow an 2nd EU referendum vote. Their power grabbing frenzy is heavily reliant on maintaining the outcome of last June 23rd.

All smashing stuff, but what about actually answering the question? What if the result was the same? Would that be an end to it, or woud we have to have another referendum (and another and another and...) until you get the required answer?

naim_nymph posted:

Above  ^  typical textbook Brexit bullying mantra highlights in reply in typical ad hominem diatribe.

Coming from someone who has spent the past 14 months or so spewing bile over people who had the temerity to vote a different way from you, that's a bit rich, don't you think? Perhaps you can only dish it out, but not take it...

And does the use of the second person singular automatically mean that an ad hom attack has been committed? I just can't keep up with the new rules people keep making up...

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Above  ^  typical textbook Brexit bullying mantra highlights in reply in typical ad hominem diatribe.

Coming from someone who has spent the past 14 months or so spewing bile over people who had the temerity to vote a different way from you, that's a bit rich, don't you think? Perhaps you can only dish it out, but not take it...

 

What you are suggesting here is untrue, i don't insult other forum members and never have done.

However it does appear that you insistently want to patronise me personally if my post content disagrees with your beliefs, but that says far more about your ad hominem problem.

You really should try sticking with the forum topic instead of attacking individual forum members.

Please look up ad hominem to see what it means!

Kevin-W posted:

"You also persist with the erroneous assumption that Brexit is somehow driven exclusively by the Tories/UKIP; whereas in fact there are remainers withing the Tories and Brexiters in the Labour Party. In fact, all political parties except UKIP and the Fib Dumbs are split to varying degrees on the issue. Also, there has been a strong stream of anti-EEC/EU within the British Left since the 1960s - Tony Benn was a famous example, as are those arch Tories, Jezza Corbyn and Dennis Skinner. 

And do you know what's the worst thing about it all? It's not your view that the UK should stay in the EU, that's a perfectly valid position for someone to take; no, it's your shrill insistence that everyone who voted to leave was a knuckle-dragging Tory racist; and that you are somehow more enlightened being because you want to remain"

Self-righteousness and moral superiority are not a good look, they really aren't.

Some of what you say here is undoubtedly true, and I do not believe that anyone has so much as insinuated that everyone who voted to leave the EU is a card carrying racist, or that no one who voted to leave had a legitimate argument in favour of exit.  

However, I certainly will claim to possess the moral high ground over the 'knuckle-dragging racists' (to borrow your label) in the National Front, the BNP and the far right of UKIP who undoubtedly voted to leave the EU and who between them almost certainly made up more than the 4% difference in the EU referendum vote. The EU was and is far from being a panacea, and unfortunate comments by one or two individuals like Juncker have not been particularly helpful to the cause of those of us in the UK who wished to remain in the UK. However, some of the claims and rhetoric in response to these comments have been absolutely outrageous and wildly exaggerated. I and many others felt and continue to feel more comfortable within the EU fold rather than facing the prospect of leadership by the 'Little England' protagonists who currently govern our country and who have little if anything in common with my view of a fair and just society.   

Perhaps you will admit that if anything is worse than the "self-righteousness and feeling of moral superiority" of those on the remain side, then that something is the triumphalism and the borderline xenophobic rhetoric of some on the Brexit side.  

While I very much regret the decision to leave, I wouldn't support the notion of having another referendum on the issue at the moment.  To do so now would I think see another unhappy bout of fact-free posturing and scaremongering on both sides. The only thing that has really changed since the original referendum is that now people can see that some things weren't true e.g. the money for the NHS (leave), the economy and public finances immediately diving (remain), and that there many more issues that need sorting out as a consequence of leaving.  To my mind the time to consider whether another referendum is appropriate is when the negotiations have been completed and HMG and all the other member states are putting the 'deal' to their respective parliaments.  Then we will have something tangible to weigh.  The question will be: is that left solely to Parliament to decide or should the electorate be asked?   

Yes the political left were much more hostile to the EU than the Conservative Party in the 70s and early 80s.  I remember Tony Benn delighting on the Queens relegation to mere citizen of the EU along with the rest of us. He objected to its undemocratic nature of the EU institutions in much the same way as Mrs Thatcher - unusual bedfellows indeed.

It was Jaque Delores introduction of the Social Chapter which prompted groups such as the TUC to change position out of narrow self interest and survival.

Ray

MDS posted:

While I very much regret the decision to leave, I wouldn't support the notion of having another referendum on the issue at the moment.  To do so now would I think see another unhappy bout of fact-free posturing and scaremongering on both sides. The only thing that has really changed since the original referendum is that now people can see that some things weren't true e.g. the money for the NHS (leave), the economy and public finances immediately diving (remain), and that there many more issues that need sorting out as a consequence of leaving.  To my mind the time to consider whether another referendum is appropriate is when the negotiations have been completed and HMG and all the other member states are putting the 'deal' to their respective parliaments.  Then we will have something tangible to weigh.  The question will be: is that left solely to Parliament to decide or should the electorate be asked?   

In the interests od democracy, it should be the Electorate.

However. we "normally" delegate such decisions to our representative MPs.

How many MPs would be put under extreme pressure by their leadership to vote in favour of  "whatever deal TM and Co secure" aka "the brilliant deal TM and Co secure".

I no longer trust my MP to do what's in the best interest of the Country, never mind what's in the best interests of his constituents.

Let's not forget that the current govt had to be fought and forced to allow parliament to make the choice, among a string of other anti-democratic tendencies.

I have little faith in a referendum once the terms of the deal are known producing a genuinely informed and democratically valid result. But I have more faith in that than I do in MPs making the decision at the moment.

Dave***t posted:

Let's not forget that the current govt had to be fought and forced to allow parliament to make the choice, among a string of other anti-democratic tendencies.

I have little faith in a referendum once the terms of the deal are known producing a genuinely informed and democratically valid result. But I have more faith in that than I do in MPs making the decision at the moment.

Yes, that's true, Dave. But the govt then had a workable majority and was behaving with confidence.  Assuming this govt lasts to the point where negotiations are complete, it will then face a tricky task of persuading the House to back the 'deal' it has negotiated.  In this it will not even be able to please all Conservative MPs, let alone the DUP and those in opposition parties.  If the gvnt whips judge that HMG's 'deal' will be voted down, rather than suffer a humiliating defeat which may well bring the gvnt down, I can see the idea of 'putting the deal to the people' getting traction because it then allows some politicians to duck out of the difficult decision, at least in the short term.     

So, the £350m pw saving, and spending it on the NHS was true and accurate after all...................

.........according to Boris !

Oh well, for a moment or two I thought Brexit might be our saviour after all 

MDS, that's a plausible line of reasoning.  But it seems to me that following it (or any other line which leads to a referendum) will hit a big problem.

If there were to be an 'ok, here's the final deal' referendum, how do we make it scrupulously fair and democratic, as it would have to be to avoid a generation of resentment and (IMO likely) riots?

I can't see another way of making the result a genuine reflection without it having several options.  For example, if it's a choice between 1) take the deal or 2) leave the EU without a deal (the current govt's wholly anti-democratic preference for the parliamentary vote), then that has massive, obvious problems of exclusion etc.  Likewise if it's 1) take the deal or 2) stay in the EU, then, much as I don't really sympathise personally, that's still hugely problematic in similar ways.

So It'd have to have several options, such as 1) take the deal, 2) walk away from the deal & still leave the EU, 3) stay in the EU, 4) we demand a better deal, but still want to leave.  The latter is a reflection of the fallible competence of our govt to negotiate - it seems perfectly possible that there could be a deal with serious flaws which could obviously have been avoided, and which must be sent back to the table to improve upon.  In fact that could even be a brinkmanship negotiating tactic.

But with multiple options like that, it's vanishingly unlikely that any one choice would get any kind of majority, even the paper thin one from the last referendum.  So how to square the circle?  If the govt forces it down to a binary choice, it's necessarily undemocratic.  If a true result is to be achieved, there will almost certainly be no overall mandate for action.

I'm out of ideas here.

Dave***t posted:

I'm out of ideas here.

I think the leaving process should be taken out of the hands of the UK government. Politics is seriously hampering a sensible outcome. It’s bizarre that so many people voted to leave to enable the UK government to have more control. What where they thinking.

We should ask the EU for a quote.

In the single market, control over borders = £???????

In the customs union, control over borders = £???????

In the single market, no control over borders = £???????

No single market, no customs union, control over borders = £0

Let the electorate decide which quote to accept.

Dave***t, yes, I think you raise a number of reasonable problems with another referendum.  And to add a further complication, the 'deal' will be offered to ratification to the parliaments of other member states, and very likely in the terms of a binary choice: 'ratify the deal negotiated, or not'. So we could also be faced with a problem if one or more of the parliaments declines to ratify e.g. RoI because it thinks the negotiated deal and arrangements on the Irish Land Boundary harms its ability to continue to trade, or Spain doesn't like the element of the deal relating to Gibraltar.  If any say ' no' what then, because the UK's position will have been agreed?

Any other member state's parliament causing a problem will likely embolden unhappy MPs in the UK parliament who might initially have been prepared to support the deal 'in the national interest'.  So I think the chances of  a clean and widely supported Brexit deal are very, very low.

But ultimately politicians are pragmatists.  Even if what they propose to do directly contradicts what they said previously or is logically flawed, they are quite skilled at marshalling arguments, allies and a supportive media to make it appear to many people that their current position is the best one.  If that involves a second referendum, don't be surprised if many of our leading politicians find a way of making it sound like a sensible plan.

Kevin W earlier described the choice of leaving the EU as a leap in the dark. I think that phrase also applies to the Brexit leaving process as well as the eventual outcome. 

fatcat posted:

 Politics is seriously hampering a sensible outcome.

Certainly seems so. Vince Cable's call the other day for political grown ups was on the money, even if it probably won't help his party.

It was leaked in the past couple of days that in the wake of BoJo's article, a deal was done with #10 that he wouldn't cause an enormous ruckus so long as the PM didn't advocate for a Switzerland-style deal in her speech tomorrow. That's about as anti-democratic as you can get.

Still, at least MDS is probably right - once all the retrofitting of positions is done, most of us will probably end up thinking that whatever happens will have been the best outcome to aim for all along.

For some reason, the tagline of Dr. Strangelove has been running through my head more and more lately. So I'm glad that one of my favourite tracks (so it gets played reasonably regularly here) starts with a quote from Network, as a counterbalance.