Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

"This Government is driven from the front and we are all going to the same destination,......"

So says TM the PM.

A woman driver, with her commandeered Brexit Adviser in the left-hand seat and a couple of male back-seat drivers giving unwanted advice ?

Sounds more like a recipe for disaster........................

....fortunately it was only a fleeting image in my mind (I hope)

The headlines tonight refer to TM's proposal to "break the Brexit deadlock". (£18bn in exchange for a transitional period after we leave).

I don't recall any announcement at the end of the last round of discussions that there was a state of deadlock.

Did I miss some such announcement, or was the situation under-reported ?

Don Atkinson posted:

I don't recall any announcement at the end of the last round of discussions that there was a state of deadlock.

Didn’t Barnier say no progress was being made, while Davis was talking about the great strides forward?

Ah, so the situation was unclear ?

The great opportunities offered by Brexit include fantastic trade deals with countries such as the USA.

who could be closer to the USA than the UK and Canada ?

Hopefully the deal relating to Bombardier's new regional jet will not be typical of these fantastic trade deals !

Will it now be a "no-deal" Brexit ?

Is this what 17m people voted for ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Will it now be a "no-deal" Brexit ?

Maybe, maybe not. The PM was signalling to the EU that that possibilty is being considered along with all others.

I suppose it is now inevitable that we will leave the EU whether or not we manage to negotiate a successful trade deal. Our current Government certainly appear to be intent on messing up any chance of a reasonable deal with their in-fighting and prevarication.     

I wonder how long we will have to wait in order to get a referendum to allow us the option of applying for re-entry into the EU? Given the apparent support to remain in the EU from the younger generation, who were unfortunately under British law unable to vote in the referendum, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there will be a growing clamour for such an opportunity in the relatively near future.   

Don Atkinson posted:

Will it now be a "no-deal" Brexit ?

Is this what 17m people voted for ?

If necessary yes. The EU won't let us go otherwise. They've got us by the balls. I say f**k them.

Drewy posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Will it now be a "no-deal" Brexit ?

Is this what 17m people voted for ?

If necessary yes. The EU won't let us go otherwise. They've got us by the balls. I say f**k them.

Was this inevitable situation crystal clear to all 17m 'leave' voters.  ?

Were all 17m saying "f**k you" to the EU (and the other 45m of us in the UK) when they voted ? I have to admit that at least half of those whom I know that voted to leave had this mentality - and still do !

"Disappointing" doesn't quite capture my feelings at the moment !

Forgive me Don, I may have asked this before, but to deal with that disappointment, apart from posting on social media what else are you doing to augment the political process of Britain's EU withdrawal?

C.

I for one am very much looking forward to the day when we can deport known terrorists without having to get permission from the ECJ.

Drewy posted:

 The EU won't let us go otherwise. They've got us by the balls.

Leavers fall into two categories, those intelligent enough to know that was going to happen, and those too stupid not to realise that was going to happen. The people who realised it was going to happen shouldn’t be whinging, now that it has.

But it’s not all bad news. Even though the pound will fall through the floor, inflation will go through the roof along with a deep recession, we’ll be able to deport who we want and be free to eat bananas shaped like cucumbers/cucumbers shaped like bananas to our hearts content. Happy Days.

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am very much looking forward to the day when we can deport known terrorists without having to get permission from the ECJ.

Its the European Court of Human Rights that was restricting the deportation of terrorists ... we're not leaving the jurisdiction of that.  And those who have been refused deportation are not "known" terrorists ... they are accused terrorists.  They were never charged and found guilty under UK laws therefore in the eyes of the law they are INNOCENT!

Of course the ECJ (which is what the UK will be leaving) has affected our lives in good ways mostly ... how about the right to be forgotten ... how about the right to compensation when airlines have technical problems ... what about those people who fall ill during annual leave having the right to that leave back?  Its all well and good talking about how the ECJ undermines UK democracy (it doesn't) ... but the cases brought to the ECJ have in many cases been to the benefit of UK citizens.

If TM (the PM) is examining contingent options to cover a wide range of potential negotiation outcomes, including the prospect of "no deal", I presume she is also examining the possibility of revoking the Article 50 submission ?

Don Atkinson posted:

If TM (the PM) is examining contingent options to cover a wide range of potential negotiation outcomes, including the prospect of "no deal", I presume she is also examining the possibility of revoking the Article 50 submission ?

Using the address below, Don, you could ask your question of her, not us:

The Prime Minister

10 Downing Street

London

SW1A 2AA

Please report on her reply.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

If TM (the PM) is examining contingent options to cover a wide range of potential negotiation outcomes, including the prospect of "no deal", I presume she is also examining the possibility of revoking the Article 50 submission ?

Using the address below, Don, you could ask your question of her, not us:

The Prime Minister

10 Downing Street

London

SW1A 2AA

Please report on her reply.

A bit of a presumption given recent events!

Luckily however, the address you have supplied to Don is not gender specific.  

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

If TM (the PM) is examining contingent options to cover a wide range of potential negotiation outcomes, including the prospect of "no deal", I presume she is also examining the possibility of revoking the Article 50 submission ?

Using the address below, Don, you could ask your question of her, not us:

The Prime Minister

10 Downing Street

London

SW1A 2AA

Please report on her reply.

Ah ! I never thought of doing that Chris................

Shortly before posting above, I did write to my MP (Benyon - Conservative) asking him, whether the Gov was examining this possibility along with the "no-deal" possibility. I will let you know what his reply says when I get it.

Christopher_M posted:

Forgive me Don, I may have asked this before, but to deal with that disappointment, apart from posting on social media what else are you doing to augment the political process of Britain's EU withdrawal?

C.

I think I have outlined previously that I did have a meeting with my MP back in March in which I shared my views (and concerns) that the Gov seemed ill-prepared for the negotiations ahead of them and that they were struggling to evaluate the 500 or so EU Agencies/Agreements that we are currently involved with. I continue to write to him and he continues to respond, but I don't think he has a lot of influence.

Separately but In particular, I provided initial input regarding my assessment of the risks and opportunities to the airline and flight training industries of our leaving EASA and continue to do so on a regular basis.

I trust this answers your question ? (but please remember, my name is not David Davis)

Thanks Don. I knew you had been in touch with Richard Benyon before ..... let's see what he has to say in your latest dialogue. I was frustrated (above) because I was reading statements with question marks after them and I couldn't see anyone here being able to answer your questions. I thought why not ask the 'guy' at the top.

As an avid R4 listener, I already knew you're not 'Brexit Bulldog'  :-)

Best,

Chris

Eloise posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am very much looking forward to the day when we can deport known terrorists without having to get permission from the ECJ.

Its the European Court of Human Rights that was restricting the deportation of terrorists ...

Is not was. We are still unable to remove suspected terrorists and failed asylum seekers thanks to this mickey nouse court rulings. You also fail to mention that in one of the conditions of EU membership is that we have to sign up to the ECHR.

When considering what the Press reports on what ministers allegedly say on matters of Brexit it is worth remembering that there is highly likely to be a difference between the policy objectives that HMG wants to secure and the negotiating tactics it choses to adopt.  HMG has to date been quite coy on spelling out in public its detailed policy objectives, which of course makes it difficult to know what is posturing and what is not.  I suspect that the same applies on the EU side, albeit deployed in a different style.

 At this stage of negotiations a substantial amount of 'noise' is inevitable. We will have to be patient to await the detail of the deal, or the detail of what the implications are if HMG decides to leave with no deal, before judging the substance. In the meantime there will be much material to keep the Press busy.  

ltaylor posted:

Eloise posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am very much looking forward to the day when we can deport known terrorists without having to get permission from the ECJ.

Its the European Court of Human Rights that was restricting the deportation of terrorists ...

Is not was. We are still unable to remove suspected terrorists and failed asylum seekers thanks to this mickey nouse court rulings. You also fail to mention that in one of the conditions of EU membership is that we have to sign up to the ECHR.

This “mickey mouse” court also holds the Government and business to account when they fail to take people “human rights” into account.  There have been many ruling which have been good for society and rulings which have probably benefit you and those you know.

Everything from Freedom of the Press, through Child Protection measures and anti-Homophic laws have been challenged and tackled through the ECHR (the court upholds the European Convention on Human Rights). Its ruled against the legality of torture.  

Yes, it’s also thwarted the occasional deportation... but that’s a small price to pay especially as the Home Secretary at the time was playing fast and loose with internationally recognised human rights protections with the deportations.  With respect to deportations: the ECHR has also backed the right to extraditions and deportations in many cases.

As Bella Sankey, policy director for Liberty, said: "Britain founded [the Convention], it is the most successful system for the enforcement of human rights in the history of the world, and every day it helps bring freedom, justice and the rule of law to 820 million people.”

So not only is the U.K. a signature to the EHCR a long time before the EU (even the EEC) came into existence, the U.K. was instrumental in creating it.  It’s only when it becomes inconvenient that it became a bad thing for the country (according to various politicians).

Am I the only person who occasionally gets confused with respect to :-

Court of Justice of the European Union

European Court of Justice

European Court of Human Rights

European Convention on Human Rights

European Council

Council of Europe

…and a few more !!

Don Atkinson posted:

Am I the only person who occasionally gets confused with respect to :-

Court of Justice of the European Union; European Court of Justice; European Court of Human Rights; European Convention on Human Rights; European Council; Council of Europe

…and a few more !!

Well the European Court of Justice is one of three parts of the Court of Justic of the European Union.  As part of the European Union they are linked to the European Council which is charged with defining the European Union's (EU) overall political direction and priorities and is made up of the heads of state of the member nations.  The European Court of Human Rights rules on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights which was drafted by the Council of Europe.

...erm ...yes, sometimes get confused too!