Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?
Posted by: Don Atkinson on 09 February 2016
Media interest seems to be focused on the trivial matter of "in-work benefits" to migrant workers from Europe.
Very little informed discussion of the benefits and consequences of us remaining part of Europe v the benefits and consequences of us leaving.
Or am I just not tuning into the appropriate TV channel or overlooking some "White Paper" that is on sale in WH Smith ?
Don Atkinson posted:Am I the only person who occasionally gets confused with respect to :-
Court of Justice of the European Union
European Court of Justice
European Court of Human Rights
European Convention on Human Rights
European Council
Council of Europe
…and a few more !!
You're amongst mates here, so long as you know your flaperons from your elbow, you're alright.
Eloise posted:Don Atkinson posted:Am I the only person who occasionally gets confused with respect to :-
Court of Justice of the European Union; European Court of Justice; European Court of Human Rights; European Convention on Human Rights; European Council; Council of Europe
…and a few more !!
Well the European Court of Justice is one of three parts of the Court of Justice of the European Union. As part of the European Union they are linked to the European Council which is charged with defining the European Union's (EU) overall political direction and priorities and is made up of the heads of state of the member nations. The European Court of Human Rights rules on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights which was drafted by the Council of Europe.
...erm ...yes, sometimes get confused too!
This is what we are preparing to leave
This is what we are not planning to leave (I hope !)
Nicely explained Eloise.
Christopher_M posted:Don Atkinson posted:Am I the only person who occasionally gets confused with respect to :-
Court of Justice of the European Union
European Court of Justice
European Court of Human Rights
European Convention on Human Rights
European Council
Council of Europe
…and a few more !!
You're amongst mates here, so long as you know your flaperons from your elbow, you're alright.
It good to know i'm not alone !
Phil Space has had a lot of fun in today's press by asking the PM how she would vote in a second EU referendum. Of course she's not going to answer, she knows we are leaving.
Still, no matter, pages filled up, air-waves filled, soundbite quotas logged.
Christopher_M posted:Phil Space has had a lot of fun in today's press by asking the PM how she would vote in a second EU referendum. Of course she's not going to answer, she knows we are leaving.
Still, no matter, pages filled up, air-waves filled, soundbite quotas logged.
Reminds me of the orchestra playing during the Sinking of the Titanic...........
....not quite so elegant,.......but no doubt a similar outcome !
Very much time a gimlet eye was cast over Cameron's relationships with Dacre, Desmond, the Barclay brothers and Murdoch imo.
I enjoyed a quote of Michael Deacon of The Telegraph that I read today - "PMQs: the woman who secretly thinks Brexit's terrible versus the man who secretly thinks it's great".
Captures rather nicely the surreal state of UK politics.
Don and Eloise's long lists bodies relating to EU regulation nicely shows why so many of us are fed up with the layers of bureaucracy emanating from Strasbourg and Brussels.
thebigfredc posted:Don and Eloise's long lists bodies relating to EU regulation nicely shows why so many of us are fed up with the layers of bureaucracy emanating from Strasbourg and Brussels.
Six items = a long list ??????
And Brexit only involves (possibly) leaving three of them !!!! ie we won't be leaving the European Court of Human Rights which rules on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights which was drafted by the Council of Europe.
I'm not at all convinced that all 17m Leavers know what they want and even less what they are likely to get !
Having just watched BBC News, I am appalled at the pathetic, childish behaviour of the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Boris, and many, many MPs in their Brexit "debates".
It is making the UK Parliament a laughing stock and probably on an international scale.
Or am I just being a little over sensitive ?
Don,
I certainly don't think you are being over sensitive.
The Brexit process certainly does not appear to be running smoothly, and it looks like we might end up without a firm trade deal in place with the EU before we leave. I wonder if those who proclaimed that 'no deal' is better than a 'bad deal' really believe that this is likely to be the case.
Of course, the end result may not be quite as bad as it looks like it might be at the moment. However, I suspect that most people will agree that in many ways we will probably be in many ways 'worse off' out of the EU than we would have been had we decided to remain in the EU. America's newfound 'America First' policy certainly won't help our cause once we are out of the EU and seeking to obtain alternative tariff free markets.
Unfortunately, I suspect that many who supported Brexit will stay loyal to their cause and proclaim that the cost (in respect of price rises, jobs and freedom of movement) of what we might eventually lose by exiting the EU is a sacrifice well worth paying in order to regain control over our legal processes (whatever that may mean in reality) and the right to expel foreigners who are 'clogging up' our country.
Perhaps I'm just being a little (or a more than a little) cynical.
The next deal will be a better deal than the last bad deal which was an awful deal, we need the right deal, the best deal, a good deal of dealing, deal, deal, deal, deal, and yeah more bleeding dealing, very secret deal, no one know what the deal is gunna be deal, masonic deal, ace up the sleeve deal, shake a leg deal, wot no one voted for deal and all at the UK tax payers full expense. But not to worry it's only the future of the UK that Doc Hallucinogenic Davies is gambling down the toilet of a full Euro flush...
)
Don Atkinson posted:thebigfredc posted:Don and Eloise's long lists bodies relating to EU regulation nicely shows why so many of us are fed up with the layers of bureaucracy emanating from Strasbourg and Brussels.
Six items = a long list ??????
And Brexit only involves (possibly) leaving three of them !!!! ie we won't be leaving the European Court of Human Rights which rules on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights which was drafted by the Council of Europe.
I'm not at all convinced that all 17m Leavers know what they want and even less what they are likely to get !
I've recently discovered a list of "Euromyths", which goes to show the mountain of misinformation deliberately disseminated by the anti-EU faction. Can't link to it so for those interested, just Google "European Commission Euromyths".
tonym posted:Don Atkinson posted:thebigfredc posted:Don and Eloise's long lists bodies relating to EU regulation nicely shows why so many of us are fed up with the layers of bureaucracy emanating from Strasbourg and Brussels.
Six items = a long list ??????
And Brexit only involves (possibly) leaving three of them !!!! ie we won't be leaving the European Court of Human Rights which rules on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights which was drafted by the Council of Europe.
I'm not at all convinced that all 17m Leavers know what they want and even less what they are likely to get !
I've recently discovered a list of "Euromyths", which goes to show themountain of misinformation deliberately disseminated by the anti-EU faction. Can't link to it so for those interested, just Google "European Commission Euromyths".
....you're a diplomat to the core Tony !
would I be totally wrong to translate those words into...."pack of lies, spouted" ?
actually, on re-reading this, the mountain of misinformation deliberately disseminated sounds so much more damming !
Don, if you are reading, I think you have a friend in this member of the press: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/co...ed-actively-support/
C.
I'm really hoping my friend is the author and not the "ginger-nut" who features in the opening photo......
Christopher_M posted:Don, if you are reading, I think you have a friend in this member of the press: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/co...ed-actively-support/
C.
Yes, Chris. I read that article yesterday and found myself very much agreeing with the sentiments expressed.
Mike
MDS posted:Christopher_M posted:Don, if you are reading, I think you have a friend in this member of the press: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/co...ed-actively-support/
C.
Yes, Chris. I read that article yesterday and found myself very much agreeing with the sentiments expressed.
Mike
Agreed !
(as I hope my post above implied !)
Britain’s economy would get a “significant” boost if Brexit was reversed in a second EU referendum, a leading global think tank has suggested.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) also warned that the UK’s growth would be hit hard if it quits the European Union without a trade deal....
Similarly to the OECD position, I found this interesting.
Both the EU and the UK have separately commissioned various pieces of research into the likely effects of Brexit on the EU and UK economies under the various possible outcomes.
The UK govt, which we are told by campaign rhetoric is open and democratic, has at least in some cases suppressed the findings and blocked their publication (eg Gove/food prices).
The EU, which is apparently essentially an anti-democratic cartel, has published its overall report in full on the internet. It can be read here - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/...2017/595374/IPOL_STU(2017)595374_EN.pdf
The general thrust is that a 'no deal' outcome is a bad thing for the EU, but not bad enough that it would be particularly significant to the EU as a whole. Roughly similar to the loss of potential growth that TTIP would probably have offered. For the UK, the effect would be as much as ten times as bad as a proportion of GDP. Which is to say, pretty much ruinous.
I'll refrain from expressing my feelings about it. I just wanted to highlight the available information.
Like you Debs, I think most of us Remainers know this, but trying to convince those ignorant and selfish Leavers is worse than banging your head against a brick wall.
Boris, in all probability, changed sides just to spite Cameron. When talking to Leavers that I know, I get the impression that most of them voted to Leave as a form of spite. all be it for a variety of spiteful reasons. And they don't intend to change !
We will fight them in the forums, and strive within the hifi. We will battle in the padded cell and ignore the pages and votes that went before. We will battle on and on and on and we will never surrender!
At Least TM and DD got a decent lunch out of this Brexit thing. So that's them satisfied at having changed sides !
I'm not quite certain that a decent lunch would swing my vote.
Don Atkinson posted:Like you Debs, I think most of us Remainers know this, but trying to convince those ignorant and selfish Leavers is worse than banging your head against a brick wall.
Boris, in all probability, changed sides just to spite Cameron. When talking to Leavers that I know, I get the impression that most of them voted to Leave as a form of spite. all be it for a variety of spiteful reasons. And they don't intend to change !
Boris & co may well live to regret it. If the impact of Brexit is as negative as many predict and it hurts businesses and peoples incomes it will be the government that negotiated (or failed to negotiate) the deal that will get the blame. We're already seeing inflation going up to levels not seen for years, and outstripping wages growth. This inflation is being ascribed to the fall in the value of the pound due to Brexit. And with the resurgence of the Labour party under Corbyn, Boris could find himself not only on the opposition benches but blamed by many in the Conservative party for destroying what once looked, under Cameron, like a party on the up.
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Labour under Corbyn will improve an ailing economy and falling living standards, I'm simply suggesting that is how the electorate might behave.
dayjay posted:We will fight them in the forums, and strive within the hifi. We will battle in the padded cell and ignore the pages and votes that went before. We will battle on and on and on and we will never surrender!
Indeed, but Is this so unexpected or different from continuing to fight on for your political party and one's beliefs having just lost a general election? Why should anyone be surprised that we annoying 'remainers' hold true to our beliefs.
It should be very obvious to most with a modicum of common sense that leaving the EU without a decent trade deal in place will be disadvantageous to the UK, and potentially disastrous. The infighting in the Tory party, which would otherwise be hugely comical, is likely to lead to such a scenario. Why on earth would anyone expect those of us in the 'Remain' camp to do anything but voice our concerns?
Tell me, is anyone comfortable or happy with the way that our so-called leadership team has approached the Brexit negotiations?