Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Hmack posted:

dayjay posted:

We will fight them in the forums, and strive within the hifi. We will battle in the padded cell and ignore the pages and votes that went before. We will battle on and on and on and we will never surrender!

Indeed, but Is this so unexpected or different from continuing to fight on for your political party and one's beliefs having just lost a general election? Why should anyone be surprised that we annoying 'remainers' hold true to our beliefs.

It should be very obvious to most with a modicum of common sense that leaving the EU without a decent trade deal in place will be disadvantageous to the UK, and potentially disastrous. The infighting in the Tory party, which would otherwise be hugely comical, is likely to lead to such a scenario. Why on earth would anyone expect those of us in the 'Remain' camp to do anything but voice our concerns?

Tell me, is anyone comfortable or happy with the way that our so-called leadership team has approached the Brexit negotiations? 

 

For the record, i'm deeply unhappy, "disappointed" even in diplomatic terms, doesn't come close.

Unfortunately, I doubt if you will get a single "Leaver" prepared to state that he/she is unhappy. As for getting one to state they are comfortable or happy................all they can do is either crawl away and hide forever, of squeel/squeak "democracy !"

I admire your commitment and passion but I'm not totally convinced that you will be able to change UK international policy from within the Naim forum, although I accept, of course, that it is a hugely influential forum.  I also suspect that most of those you are haranguing have long since moved onto cable arguments 

dayjay posted:

I admire your commitment and passion but I'm not totally convinced that you will be able to change UK international policy from within the Naim forum, although I accept, of course, that it is a hugely influential forum.  I also suspect that most of those you are haranguing have long since moved onto cable arguments 

I suspect that many people see this (and all) forum(s) a bit like a dinner party conversation...

Eloise posted:

dayjay posted:

I admire your commitment and passion but I'm not totally convinced that you will be able to change UK international policy from within the Naim forum, although I accept, of course, that it is a hugely influential forum.  I also suspect that most of those you are haranguing have long since moved onto cable arguments 

I suspect that many people see this (and all) forum(s) a bit like a dinner party conversation...

Great dinner party

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

Hmack posted:

dayjay posted:

We will fight them in the forums, and strive within the hifi. We will battle in the padded cell and ignore the pages and votes that went before. We will battle on and on and on and we will never surrender!

Indeed, but Is this so unexpected or different from continuing to fight on for your political party and one's beliefs having just lost a general election? Why should anyone be surprised that we annoying 'remainers' hold true to our beliefs.

It should be very obvious to most with a modicum of common sense that leaving the EU without a decent trade deal in place will be disadvantageous to the UK, and potentially disastrous. The infighting in the Tory party, which would otherwise be hugely comical, is likely to lead to such a scenario. Why on earth would anyone expect those of us in the 'Remain' camp to do anything but voice our concerns?

Tell me, is anyone comfortable or happy with the way that our so-called leadership team has approached the Brexit negotiations? 

 

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

dayjay posted:

We will fight them in the forums, and strive within the hifi. We will battle in the padded cell and ignore the pages and votes that went before. We will battle on and on and on and we will never surrender!

Oh dear, another person gets the quote wrong.

So much for the playing the patriotic card by misappropriating Churchill's most famous speech, when you can't even get it right!

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

Don't forget that even if there's a 'No Deal' outcome, it'll still be a good result for Britain... Even if it's only because of the £116M per week that we've been assured that the EU will pay us to stay out.

Even the Brexit side appear to have forgotten this.

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

Unfortunately the progress/success of negotiations depends on the negotiating ability of the negotiator. DC didn't have a big weighty handbag or the muscles to wield it. The present lot - well, I don't think they could negotiate a discount at a Marrakesh bazaar...

Since the point of the collapse of the pro-Brexit leaders and rapidly increasing recognition by the previosly blind that the leave campaign was based on, at best, highly flawed  guesses, I have argued that there should be a second referendum, before the Brexit button was pushed, which in essence would have been 'this is a really momentous and life-changing decision, please confirm your desire'. But the spineless apologies for people that populated Parliament then didn't do anything, and even after the flop that was the tories' election earlier this year revealed how they had lost popularity, did not trigger a mass political desire to review Brexit, albeit that it is far from clear whether the process could be stopped if desired.

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

Britain is heading inexorably for a disaster that will adversely affect us all, and our children and grandchildren.

Where are the Leavers? Probably getting on with their lives having become bored with watching many of those who voted Remain torture themselves.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

Unfortunately the progress/success of negotiations depends on the negotiating ability of the negotiator. DC didn't have a big weighty handbag or the muscles to wield it. The present lot - well, I don't think they could negotiate a discount at a Marrakesh bazaar...

Since the point of the collapse of the pro-Brexit leaders and rapidly increasing recognition by the previosly blind that the leave campaign was based on, at best, highly flawed  guesses, I have argued that there should be a second referendum, before the Brexit button was pushed, which in essence would have been 'this is a really momentous and life-changing decision, please confirm your desire'. But the spineless apologies for people that populated Parliament then didn't do anything, and even after the flop that was the tories' election earlier this year revealed how they had lost popularity, did not trigger a mass political desire to review Brexit, albeit that it is far from clear whether the process could be stopped if desired.

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

Britain is heading inexorably for a disaster that will adversely affect us all, and our children and grandchildren.

It would be more than a little perverse to 'like' your post, given that it shares my concern about the effect of this whole disastrous affair on current and future generations of our population.

Rather, I'll just say that I agree with virtually everything in your post and share your pessimism. I guess we can only hope that we are proven to be wrong, unless timmo1341's glimmer of hope comes to fruition.   

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Hmack posted:

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Nahhhh he’s right... I’m content with my HiFi so now have time to worry about the world and politics instead :-)

Eloise posted:

Hmack posted:

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Nahhhh he’s right... I’m content with my HiFi so now have time to worry about the world and politics instead :-)

There's only so many times you can recommend an LP12/552/Krell 600/Wilson V on the Naim site.

Politics is much safer

Eloise posted:

Hmack posted:

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Nahhhh he’s right... I’m content with my HiFi so now have time to worry about the world and politics instead :-)

Ok. I've just broken my recent "duck" and posted in the hifi department, in response to Mogul's "coming out" that he has abandoned Naim for Devialet...........

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

Hmack posted:

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Nahhhh he’s right... I’m content with my HiFi so now have time to worry about the world and politics instead :-)

There's only so many times you can recommend an LP12/552/Krell 600/Wilson V on the Naim site.

Politics is much safer

You really should have a look at the Lindemann 830s pre-amp to complete your system.

Mind you, it doesn't have a phono stage, and I suspect that the 552 probably isn't too bad after all.

Only kidding.  

Hmack posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

Hmack posted:

Gazza posted:

Some never even post anything about hifi.....?

I do admire your thoroughness.

On the other hand, perhaps you haven't really checked?

Nahhhh he’s right... I’m content with my HiFi so now have time to worry about the world and politics instead :-)

There's only so many times you can recommend an LP12/552/Krell 600/Wilson V on the Naim site.

Politics is much safer

You really should have a look at the Lindemann 830s pre-amp to complete your system.

Mind you, it doesn't have a phono stage, and I suspect that the 552 probably isn't too bad after all.

Only kidding.  

it is pretty good IMHO..............no kidding

....but Mogul has moved to Devialet and I wish I had found time back in August/September to meet up with him again - he has a really good ear for hifi and his previous Naim combinations sounded brilliant.

Gosh, if members continue to discuss the merits of various pieces of hifi equipment on this thread, there's a risk that Richard might move it to the HiFi section! 

You have been warned!

Rest easy Clive.  There's not much chance of that.

Let's get back on topic. 

I voted out

I didn't vote.

only because there was no 3rd option 

Drewy posted:

Let's get back on topic. 

I voted out

And now?

Drewy posted:

Let's get back on topic. 

I voted out

But why?

Perhaps you believed the promises about a windfall for the NHS? Perhaps you believe that it is all worth it, come what May? 

HMAK you do most of us 'outies' a disservice.

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

Ray