Mm Cart for Aro?

Lewis, IIRC some years back Kuma tried out a number of different MM cartridges on an Aro.  I'll try to find the thread for you..

OK, I found it.  Here you go..

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...m-mm-cartridge-mania

My fave MM with ARO:

There are a several great sounding vintage cartrdiges including the K9. The problem is that you are glued to the Ebay and  sometimes, cartridge suspension is a suspect.

Linn K9

Linn Adikt:

Audio Technica 140LC:

I generally prefer these MM over inexpensive MCs but recently I tried out Audio Technica's AT-F7 MC and it sounds terrific. This is my first decent budget MC. ( works great with Linto so far but I reckon it will work with a Naim stage, too ) Highly recommended!

Output voltage @ 1kHz,5cm/sec: 0.35mV
- Tracking force: 1.8-2.2 g (2.0 g standard)
- Coil impedance: 12 ohms (1kHz)
- DC resistance: 12 ohms
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: 27dB
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: >1.5dB
- Dynamic compliance: 9.0 x 10^-6cm/dyne (100Hz)
- Static compliance: 35 x 10^-6cm/dyne
- Stylus: Nude elliptical 0.2 × 0.7 mil
- Suspension wires: Stainless - Vertical tracking angle: 23°
- Dimensions: 17.3 (H) x 16.8 (W) x 25.4 (L) mm
- Weight: 5 g

250USD!

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What about the new Audio Technica line, for example the AT VM 540 ML or the 740 ML. AT and Naim is a great synergy. 

Thanks gents that's great. The other one I've read to be decent is the Denon DL 103 which comes in at a few hundred pounds. Looks quite good on the arm too! 

Kuma

I've been looking for a cartridge for my Aro and hadn't seen reference to the AT AT-F7 so your heads up is appreciated.

hi Lewis, while it's not an MM cart., i've had good luck with a Zu Audio DL-103, which is a 103 repotted in an aluminum body. this adds a bit of mass, allowing the Denon to work better in the Aro. this setup really locks into the beat and has great tone. i've found this to be a very "Naim-y" cartridge, for lack of a better word.

once i knew that i liked the 103, i got an A23 step-up transformer that's designed for the Denon -- which put even more "lead in the Denon's pencil." great stuff!

Robiwan posted:

What about the new Audio Technica line, for example the AT VM 540 ML or the 740 ML. AT and Naim is a great synergy. 

Why not try some and report back?

When I settled on Linn Adikt as my reference MM, I stopped looking. Maybe one of those AT could be an Adikt beater for less but you never know till try one.

Clay Bingham posted:

Kuma

I've been looking for a cartridge for my Aro and hadn't seen reference to the AT AT-F7 so your heads up is appreciated.

 

Clay,

If you end up getting one, let us know what you think. Which phono?

I am not gonna claim it's an Etna SL killer but I am really surprised how well it tracks and it times well. ( rare for an entry level MC carts which gives a better details but musically sort of meh )

Lewis posted:

Thanks gents that's great. The other one I've read to be decent is the Denon DL 103 which comes in at a few hundred pounds. Looks quite good on the arm too! 

I must be the only one who did not care for the Denon variants. ( I had both the DL103 & 103R ) which got out of the system rather quickly! This goes to show you this cartridge business is very personal and subjective.

Compliance wise, tho, AT would be a better fit for ARO, I'd reckon but it has many fans.

Also, DL103 isn't a Moving Magnet. It's a Moving Coil pickup.

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Some food for thought there guys. I need to have a look and see what these examples cost before making a decision. Also I have 'K' boards for my 32.5, will they work ok with any of the above carts? I notice there are different outputs of the MC cart etc, all very confusing when you compare to a simple MM! 

The Denon DL-103 is well liked by many but it's no universal panacea.  It has been around a long time though, so it's something of a "standard", and inflation has been kind to it so it's relatively inexpensive too. However, while its bass can sound nice and meaty, it can lack insight and detail, probably thanks to that conical stylus. The latter also means that performance drops off rapidly towards the inner grooves. The plastic body adds colouration and it's beaten by a number of other cartridges for "speed" and agility.  The output is low.  

However, it gives a very even handed sound, with a nice sense of weight, and also provides an excellent basis for effective upgrades and refinements.  Adding mass to the body such as a stabiliser is a good idea.  Better yet, remove the body or re-body the cartridge, although it's a fairly tricky operation that risks damaging the very fine wires within or taking off the cantilever.  Re-tips with profiled stylus' such as with my own ESCo 103 bring mostly gains, and some go as far as a completely new cantilever.  It's the cartridge equivalent of the Rega RB250 - excellent and inexpensive as standard, but capable of reaching great heights with money spent on custom improvements.

On the Aro it definitely needs a stabiliser or, better yet, a new body - the Uwe Panzerholz works well and also improves the impression of "speed" considerably.  However, then it begs for a much better stylus...

kuma posted:

Lewis posted:

Thanks gents that's great. The other one I've read to be decent is the Denon DL 103 which comes in at a few hundred pounds. Looks quite good on the arm too! 

I must be the only one who did not care for the Denon variants. ( I had both the DL103 & 103R ) which got out of the system rather quickly! This goes to show you this cartridge business is very personal and subjective.

Compliance wise, tho, AT would be a better fit for ARO, I'd reckon but it has many fans.

Also, DL103 isn't a Moving Magnet. It's a Moving Coil pickup.

 

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Kuma, do you have any aerial shots of these carts fitted at all?  I have seen some that almost follow the shape of the aro's profile but unsure which type these are, thanks.

Thanks Richard, your knowledge is endless on this! 

For example this one in the far right of the pic below (I hope Peter doesn't mind me borrowing his photo):

I used to have Dynavectors - 17D2 and then 20x (the low output version). Recommended by Ray at Grahams. The latter - now updated - also comes in a high output version "suitable for most MM inputs". It's a while since I had my LP12/Aro but I was never less than very happy with the cartridges.

Richard Dane posted:

However, it gives a very even handed sound, with a nice sense of weight, and also provides an excellent basis for effective upgrades and refinements.  Adding mass to the body such as a stabiliser is a good idea.  Better yet, remove the body or re-body the cartridge, although it's a fairly tricky operation that risks damaging the very fine wires within or taking off the cantilever.  Re-tips with profiled stylus' such as with my own ESCo 103 bring mostly gains, and some go as far as a completely new cantilever.  It's the cartridge equivalent of the Rega RB250 - excellent and inexpensive as standard, but capable of reaching great heights with money spent on custom improvements.

On the Aro it definitely needs a stabiliser or, better yet, a new body - the Uwe Panzerholz works well and also improves the impression of "speed" considerably.  However, then it begs for a much better stylus...

One man's even-handed is another man's bore.

This cartridge was developed with NHK ( Japanese Government's Broadcasting co. aka Nippon Hoso Kyokai  )  for commercial use specifically to reproduce clear human voice and introduced in conjunction with 1964 Tokyo Olympics FM stereo radio program. Its emphasis was clearly heard in the excellent midband reproduction. For a vintage long running pickup, my preference is with Ortofon SPU which I find much more colourful and *interesting*. ( but I know it has other drawbacks )

When I had them in my possession, I wasn't gonna bother with all the tweaks as I am generally lazy so I wanted a cartridge that works to my liking right out of the box. But I can see the project can be fun for some.  I didn't find its output voltage that low, tho. Actually I find .03mV is a pretty good spot with most decent quiet phonos.

This one is ultra low @ .12mV! For this one, you'll need a ultra quiet high gain phono!

Lewis posted:

  Kuma, do you have any aerial shots of these carts fitted at all?

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Nope.

Lewis posted:

For example this one in the far right of the pic below (I hope Peter doesn't mind me borrowing his photo):

 

That's Lyra Kleos to the far right.

Kleos SL (Single-Layer lower output version) also is a lovely cartridge and works well with Naim phonos. It will work better with S type.

Personally, the only cartridge that worked well with K type was Linn Akiva. Most all other cartridge I tried S type worked much better.

With your system, you can also consider getting a Linn Karma which K type phono was developed for is my understanding.

One of these days I'll get this one retipped.

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Lewis posted:

Hi all,

Is there a good quality MM cart commonly available for the Aro? From what I've seen most people use MC. Is there a reason for this at all?

i recently picked up an Aro but need a cart, so if you are able to assist with specific recommendations (in sensible budget) that would be good. I have MC cards for my Nac 32.5 anyway so can always swap them out of needs be. 

System is Nac 32.5, HC, Nap 135's, SBL's, Sondek.

Thanks in advance. 

the best mm cartridges often cited:  clear audio virtuoso wood and audio note iq3.

Personnaly i like very much lyra(mc) cartridges. I had lyra delos before and i will choose next a lyra kleos certainly.  For now i have kiseki blue ns, also very good.  But lyra suits me more....

Is a London Decca any good in an Aro? I've never heard one but they're reputed to be very dynamic. Having a superline or an iso to choose from I'm unlikely to go that route but with mm boards in a 32 it might be interesting.

I was ,one point, interested in Decca but my understanding is that it's a mismatch with ARO. The problem is that the ARO rings and Decca needs heavily damped arm.  As with DL103, you might have to dampen the arm to make it work with Decca. You can certainly try one and report back.

This is from the past forum post from 2009 FWIW:

Well, I just had an interesting conversation with a London Decca dealer in San Leandro, CA.

I inquired of the London Decca Jubilee cartridge and when I asked for the distance from between the mounting holes and the stylus tip, he commented on why on earth I'd need to know that. I explained that the Naim Aro has fixed mounting holes instead of slots. He said he knew nothing of this tone arm, but based on this one piece of information, this arm is a piece of crap! This in addition to the fact that I would be using an LP12, he refused to sell me the Jubilee. He said if you can't set overhang exactly, that close is the same as a mile! He said that I should throw my tone arm in the junk! At this point he ended our conversation without even giving me a chance to respond or discuss anything. I am in total shock to say the least.

yeti42 posted:

Is a London Decca any good in an Aro? I've never heard one but they're reputed to be very dynamic. Having a superline or an iso to choose from I'm unlikely to go that route but with mm boards in a 32 it might be interesting.

Hi Yeti,

I can't really say if Decca cartridges work in the ARO as I use a Ittok on my LP12 but have been useing Decca Supergolds  the last 10 years.

There not as refined as moving coil cartridges but to my ears more than make up in excitement terms.Dull sounding they certainly are not the transients are astonishing.

I have a mate in the HiFi industry and he says you might as well put a nail on the end of the cantalever as the stylus profile is supposed to damage the grooves.Personally I haven't found to much record wear but Decca's aren't the safest bet with regard to groove wear.

Well worth investigating.

Maybe Richard Dane or Kuma  might be able to give more of an opinion on Decca's or Decca's in an ARO ?

Hope this helps 

Ian

Ian, I've never been brave enough to try a Decca, for the very reason you cite - record wear (oh, and poor tracking too).  Having said that, I do love the SPU Royal N and that tracks at a rather alarming 3 grams and isn't the best at tracking high level grooves.

I do have a new and unused hadcock GH242 Cryo in its box though, and I hear it's an excellent match with the Decca, so, who knows...

kuma posted:

I was ,one point, interested in Decca but my understanding is that it's a mismatch with ARO. The problem is that the ARO rings and Decca needs heavily damped arm.  As with DL103, you might have to dampen the arm to make it work with Decca. You can certainly try one and report back.

This is from the past forum post from 2009 FWIW:

Well, I just had an interesting conversation with a London Decca dealer in San Leandro, CA.

I inquired of the London Decca Jubilee cartridge and when I asked for the distance from between the mounting holes and the stylus tip, he commented on why on earth I'd need to know that. I explained that the Naim Aro has fixed mounting holes instead of slots. He said he knew nothing of this tone arm, but based on this one piece of information, this arm is a piece of crap! This in addition to the fact that I would be using an LP12, he refused to sell me the Jubilee. He said if you can't set overhang exactly, that close is the same as a mile! He said that I should throw my tone arm in the junk! At this point he ended our conversation without even giving me a chance to respond or discuss anything. I am in total shock to say the least.

What a dreadful attitude towards a potential customer! I hope you've never been back to visit that dealer.

Clive B posted:

kuma posted:

I was ,one point, interested in Decca but my understanding is that it's a mismatch with ARO. The problem is that the ARO rings and Decca needs heavily damped arm.  As with DL103, you might have to dampen the arm to make it work with Decca. You can certainly try one and report back.

This is from the past forum post from 2009 FWIW:

Well, I just had an interesting conversation with a London Decca dealer in San Leandro, CA.

I inquired of the London Decca Jubilee cartridge and when I asked for the distance from between the mounting holes and the stylus tip, he commented on why on earth I'd need to know that. I explained that the Naim Aro has fixed mounting holes instead of slots. He said he knew nothing of this tone arm, but based on this one piece of information, this arm is a piece of crap! This in addition to the fact that I would be using an LP12, he refused to sell me the Jubilee. He said if you can't set overhang exactly, that close is the same as a mile! He said that I should throw my tone arm in the junk! At this point he ended our conversation without even giving me a chance to respond or discuss anything. I am in total shock to say the least.

What a dreadful attitude towards a potential customer! I hope you've never been back to visit that dealer.

What a dick! He clearly has no appreciation for what is the the finest and most excellently styled Hifi equipment in the world!  It does amaze me how some of these so called agents manage to maintain a reputation and operate with such negative attitudes. Such a shame.