Uniti Atom/Nova/Star - New firmware - March/April 2018 Comments

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere.

In relation to the artwork that went missing, if you are a Unitiserve user, Naim seemingly are still working on a fix, no timescale and no update.

You could if Naim refused to resolve ask for a buy back, the sound change for one and there are also a number of other errors Naim made in the original product description, that never made it in the actual - so mis-selling.

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

Hi Richard

I think several threads (new Uniti series or otherwise) have established that the recent firmware updates have introduced changes to the sound.

I'm delighted to have been given access to older firmware and a method of reverting allowing me to go back to a sound I was happier with but other than that I don't think Naim has actively enaged with those with negative experiences to try to understand why.  We are presumably a vocal minority, perhaps a pain in the neck, but in reality we're simply trying to figure out why we feel the new firmware isn't as good as the majority espouses.

AC

Alleycat we are only given a downgrade to 2.3.8, the first issue started at 2.3.1, then 2.6 just got worse.

Naim won't provide the original shipper firmware.

So actually an interim firmware has been provided, possible the one minus the DSP change ?

Obsydian posted:

Alleycat we are only given a downgrade to 2.3.8, the first issue started at 2.3.1, then 2.6 just got worse.

Naim won't provide the original shipper firmware.

So actually an interim firmware has been provided, possible the one minus the DSP change ?

I think we need to be careful with version/build numbers,

2.3.1 was the initial version that we identified as problematic.

I have been given access to 2.3.8574 (? build 8574) which I am confident was released before 2.3.1 as I have screengrabs on my iPhone when I updated from 2.1 (8209) on 24th October 2017.

Original shipping version I suggest is less relevant than what you had before 2.3.1 which may have been original shippingor interim but sounded good.

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

Hi Richard

Well if Naim are very interested in finding out why this has happened what are they doing about it ? I see no evidence of them reaching out to dissatisfied customers on this thread.

Whilst I agree there are complex issues involved I don't think running a Nova with a Unitiserve and finding the artwork goes awol is rocket science and yet this has happened.

I haven't heard diddly squat from them.

I'm guessing they are trying to replicate the issues we're having back in HQ, perhaps even reaching out to the "beta" community for feedback. Perhaps the latter would be a bad direction to take since they seemed to (based on comments here) to think there was an improvement and the Naim "golden ears" ultimately decided on the sound changes.

I think ultimately we'll also have to adopt the newer firmware given the stability and Multiroom code necessitated changes to the sound processing.  The question is is there a batch of components that react differently to the update or is the code being corrupted during the download and not applying all the necessary changes to bring the units back on song.

Regardless, this has been an eye opener for me, no longer can I rely on reviews or even personal  auditions on equipment before I buy, if at the next firmware update the sound changes. I was ultimately going to fill out my home with a Core and a Nova, link them all together on the network and enjoy a system for every room or for all rooms. That is now on hold and if the current philosophy of incremental improvements in sound is the way forward, I can't see the point of investing any further if I won't know what sound I'll ultimately end up with. 

I know it's small money in the Naim world .... but the writing is on the wall and will be picked up by consumers, reviewers and budding Audiophiles. A strong statement that that sound you buy when you purchase a Naim Uniti Product may not be the sound your left with .... and that in the High End Audio market is a big No No!.

EoinKav posted:

I haven't heard diddly squat from them.

I'm guessing they are trying to replicate the issues we're having back in HQ, perhaps even reaching out to the "beta" community for feedback. Perhaps the latter would be a bad direction to take since they seemed to (based on comments here) to think there was an improvement and the Naim "golden ears" ultimately decided on the sound changes.

I think ultimately we'll also have to adopt the newer firmware given the stability and Multiroom code necessitated changes to the sound processing.  The question is is there a batch of components that react differently to the update or is the code being corrupted during the download and not applying all the necessary changes to bring the units back on song.

Regardless, this has been an eye opener for me, no longer can I rely on reviews or even personal  auditions on equipment before I buy, if at the next firmware update the sound changes. I was ultimately going to fill out my home with a Core and a Nova, link them all together on the network and enjoy a system for every room or for all rooms. That is now on hold and if the current philosophy of incremental improvements in sound is the way forward, I can't see the point of investing any further if I won't know what sound I'll ultimately end up with. 

I know it's small money in the Naim world .... but the writing is on the wall and will be picked up by consumers, reviewers and budding Audiophiles. A strong statement that that sound you buy when you purchase a Naim Uniti Product may not be the sound your left with .... and that in the High End Audio market is a big No No!.

 

 

I see youre in my neck of the woods, what speakers are you using out of interest?  

Outer Mongolia is a long way from Ireland .

Monitor Audio Silver 100, not high end, but seem to match the Atom pretty nicely.

Yes it is but I commute on the weekends. I’m not familiar with the MA’s but 2.6 is sounding seriously nice on my system now. I know you really don’t like it but from my experience I’d load it up again and listen to it for 2 weeks without switching and then see how you feel, I suspect you might be surprised. 

Believe me, I've tried to listen to it on 2.6 for extended periods of time, it's somewhat bearable at less than 30 but lacks the Bass and presence it had before at this volume. Greater than 40 forget it, after about 15 minutes, I get so fatigued with the brittle (especially female) vocals I just have the strongest urge to switch it off that I can't quite overcome. 

I get the extra detail, improved sound stage, it's all there. But there is just something in the sound which makes the experience tiring and far less enjoyable. Many here more eloquent than I, can express exactly what I'm hearing. I can identify with everything that they describe.

When I downgrade back to 2.3 there is a much more satisfying sound and more importantly there is no fatigue or urge to switch it off. 2 weeks would just be too much listening torture. 

I have no such problems with the Mu-So's update, in fact I have 2. One updated and the other still on shipping firmware, I actually think the Mu-So improved slightly with the update. I just haven't bothered to update the 2nd unit as of yet.

glasnaim posted:

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

Hi Richard

Well if Naim are very interested in finding out why this has happened what are they doing about it ? I see no evidence of them reaching out to dissatisfied customers on this thread.

Whilst I agree there are complex issues involved I don't think running a Nova with a Unitiserve and finding the artwork goes awol is rocket science and yet this has happened.

Glasnaim, who did you contact at Naim about this?  Are you in touch with Naim support?

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

I am not affected by the problems discusses in this thread but I am generally very interested is issues that might be the consequence of errors in software implementations.

What I freely do not understand is why it is so difficult for Naim to provide upgrades in functionalities that have no perceivable impacts on the sound quality whatsoever. I understand that the new Uniti range is based on a Linux platform.

I routinely receive and install upgrades of the major audio components of my Linux system. These are just four packages: mpd, alsa-utils, upmpdcli and upmpdcli-qobuz. Improvements in the functionalities of these components over years have never had any perceivable impact on the sound quality. The only software upgrade that has (very positively!) changed the sound quality of my system was upgrading the nDAC firmware in Dec. 2015.

I would be very worried if bug fixes would suddently start impacting the sound quality of my system. Separation of concerns is the most important principle in software design. Keeping the potential impacts of (future) changes in implementations as limited as possible is a primary aim of any sound software design. If fixing an artwork glitch had the potential of affecting the sound of my system (and therefore require long-lasting beta testing prior being relesed), then I would think that my software system is rather brittle and, most likely, poorly designed.

Why cannot Naim simply keep DSP upgrades and upgrades in functionalities and bug fixes on clearcut separated tracks?

Just my two cents,

Although getting into the digital world is a good thing ,I guess Naim is to eager and to nervous (competitors maybe ahead in RenD) to jump into. And in the process getting their things right, do make some missteps.Esspecialy when it comes to firm and software upgrades.

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Richard Dane posted:

glasnaim posted:

Unfortunately I think you are right Alleycat, I don't think Naim are actively pursuing feedback regarding sound quality issues arising out of the 2.6 update, I suspect the opposite. So the choices are stick with 2.6, go back to 2.3 unsupported or go elsewhere....

From what Trevor said just the other day on this very thread, Naim are very interested in finding out why some people are getting such a different experience from the firmware upgrade. However, I don't think we will have instant answers as it is very complex. Just because Naim haven't got an answer that explains it yet doesn't mean they're not actively pursuing the source of the problem or looking for further feedback from customers.

Hi Richard

Well if Naim are very interested in finding out why this has happened what are they doing about it ? I see no evidence of them reaching out to dissatisfied customers on this thread.

Whilst I agree there are complex issues involved I don't think running a Nova with a Unitiserve and finding the artwork goes awol is rocket science and yet this has happened.

Glasnaim, who did you contact at Naim about this?  Are you in touch with Naim support?

Richard, Initially, at the end of March, I contacted my dealer, as per Naim's guidance. After a few days my dealer got back to me saying Naim were aware of the update problems and were working on a solution and that I was to contact Phil Harris, technical support directly.

I phoned Naim, unfortunately Phil was out the office and my call was handled by a Flynn Charter, he asked me to email outlining the problems I was experiencing, I did this immediately, sent 8th April. Over the next few weeks a total of 17 emails were exchanged, most initiated by myself, trying to get resolution to the problems I had experienced with the update. Only when Flynn went on holiday did I contact Phil Harris direct. I am still unaware of Flynn's role at Naim, I have emailed asking him, still awaiting a reply.

To be fair Phil's involvement improved Naim's response, providing more detail and answers, more context, some of which I have reported back via the forum.

I was very happy with my system before the update, it sounded great and worked perfectly. Having to endure all this drama surrounding the update process has left me less enamoured with brand Naim.

OK thanks Glasnaim.  It does sound to me like Naim are very much engaging with you and trying to help.  However, I would guess that until they have a better understanding of the odd results that some users are having, it's very hard to provide any sure fire solution.  What does your dealer think?  Has he heard your unit and compared against their own demo unit?

Hi, I did same frequency response tests some time ago, just for interest and for better speaker placement. All measurements were taken from listening position. I remember, that my Uniti Atom had update 2.3 then. The results are here (this is frequency response with 1/6 octave smoothing and most of the spikes are because of my room acoustics).

https://imgur.com/zt5hEqL

So I made the measurements and forgot them. Now, after reading this post, I decided to do measurements again. Now my Uniti has 2.6 update. And the measurements are here (with exactly the same speaker, mic placement and volume level. 1/6 octave smoothing also):

https://imgur.com/KNMrSLD

I put the measurements together, and what I got is here (RED - 2.3 update, BLUE - 2.6):

https://imgur.com/O7rm2gm

I know that this can be very subjective, especially in the higher frequencies, as it depends on weather, humidity, curtain placement, etc. But low frequencies aren't so dependent on that. And also I haven't move any furniture, and change nothing in my flat. Also I have marked positions for my mic and speakers, so they are also exactly in the same places for both measurements.

If you save as the pictures and scroll them forward and backward you will see that there is pretty big difference in low frequencies range 35-500Hz. Seem that 2.6 update has reduced bass in the range 35-500 hz. High frequencies also seem to have slight different curve.

As I said, the measurements are made in different time, so maybe there is some unnoticed variable here. I can't guarantee, that this shows difference in 2.3 and 2.6 update.

Tony123,....interesting.

/Peder ????

Peder posted:

Tony123,....interesting.

/Peder ????

Thanks, Peder.

Also, I'm thinking, can amplifiers of the same model have different sounding characteristics? For example lets take two exactly the same Uniti Atoms with exactly the same firmware. Are their sound quality exactly the same? Or is it allowed to have some deviations on characteristics (wattage, frequency response, distortion, noise level, etc..)?

I understand, that the amplifiers is mostly hand made, so the deviations can occur due to human factor. If yes, how much deviations can it be?

Just trying to understand, why some Uniti and Nova owners complain about quality change and some do not complain. Maybe they all have the same products with minor deviations of characteristics. And this is why the updates gives different results.

Having seen at first hand the strict controls and tests under which both old and new products are constructed, and Naim’s almost insane attention to detail, this is most unlikely.

More likely is that people are made with different ears and live with their systems in different environments.

tony123 posted:

Peder posted:

Tony123,....interesting.

/Peder ????

... Just trying to understand, why some Uniti and Nova owners complain about quality change and some do not complain. ...

I thought that EOINKAV had fund it out (at page 7 if I am not mistaken): he has upgraded twice starting from the same firmware and setup and ended up with different DSP version. Or am I missing something? Of course, this does not exclude hardware differences but this is something that can only be confirmed or confuted by Naim or by Naim dealers, I am afraid.

I agree with Nick. These products are as near identical as they could possible be. That isn't going to be the reason for a big SQ variation after updating.

I'm thinking more that the updating programme had a non-deterministic outcome on the post-update state of part of the firmware, so for example the DSP coefficients could end up in one of two (or more?) different states. One is the expected state and the one that was heard by Naim testers and beta testers, but occasionally another different state is arrived at where the SQ is substantially changed. That could also explain why repeating the update sometimes gets apparently different SQ outcomes.

But without knowing far more than I do about the product design and the updating process, I couldn't suggest how this happened.

But if this is correct then it means that it can be solved by a new updater and if confirmed in due course by Naim it should also set at rest the minds of purchasers or potential purchasers who think that there is a risk that future firmware updates may change SQ substantially on a whim of the folk at Salisbury.

best

David

Naim have confirmed (in their email) that they picked one of several sound profiles for this update, additionally Tony123 has posted the frequency responses from 2.3 vs 2.6 which show a change in sound. Therefore the logical conclusion is that the sound has been knowingly changed by Naim and puts an end to the debate as to whether peoples ears are deceiving them.

This does not put to rest that a product purchased today will not be altered significantly (for the purchaser) at the whim of Naim tomorrow.

In conclusion

Some people dislike the deliberate sound change

Some people like the deliberate sound change

Some people are tolerating the deliberate sound change (in the hope it grows on them)

Some people are unaware of the sound change (after upgrading)

Some people have not upgraded their firmware

Not every Naim customer frequents these forums

Naim are . . . . .  [hopefully reconsidering whether conflating 3 distinctly separate things - Bug fixes, Sound changes & New features in the same firmware update was such a good idea]

Pulse Code posted:

Naim have confirmed (in their email) that they picked one of several sound profiles for this update, additionally Tony123 has posted the frequency responses from 2.3 vs 2.6 which show a change in sound. Therefore the logical conclusion is that the sound has been knowingly changed by Naim and puts an end to the debate as to whether peoples ears are deceiving them.

This does not put to rest that a product purchased today will not be altered significantly (for the purchaser) at the whim of Naim tomorrow.

In conclusion

Some people dislike the deliberate sound change

Some people like the deliberate sound change

Some people are tolerating the deliberate sound change (in the hope it grows on them)

Some people are unaware of the sound change (after upgrading)

Some people have not upgraded their firmware

Not every Naim customer frequents these forums

Naim are . . . . .  [hopefully reconsidering whether conflating 3 distinctly separate things - Bug fixes, Sound changes & New features in the same firmware update was such a good idea]

And some people wait for an other version of software ( 2.7 or 2.8?)

nbpf posted:

tony123 posted:

Peder posted:

Tony123,....interesting.

/Peder ????

... Just trying to understand, why some Uniti and Nova owners complain about quality change and some do not complain. ...

I thought that EOINKAV had fund it out (at page 7 if I am not mistaken): he has upgraded twice starting from the same firmware and setup and ended up with different DSP version. Or am I missing something? Of course, this does not exclude hardware differences but this is something that can only be confirmed or confuted by Naim or by Naim dealers, I am afraid.

I believe it's a Naim app glitch - when you change the firmware the app correctly displays this  but for some reason doesn't update the DSP version displayed until you quit and restart the app (or maybe the Naim device reports it incorrectly until app restarts).  This seems very reproducible to me.