Allo DigiOne Signature

michael1702 posted:

Here we go... 

As good as the Allo DigiOne Signature sounds, there has to be a difference for 17 x the price. And there definitely is:  a finer resolution and more details. It just fits to the whole system it's made for. 

...

I am trying to understand your report: the above judgement refers to a comparison between

Ethernet > DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC

and

Ethernet > NDX 2

in your original system, right? Your finding is that the NDX 2 sounds better than the DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC chain. But the price of the NDX2 is less than 2 times the price of the  DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC chain, not 17 times that price! This would be a very clear statement in favour of the NDX 2. Am I missing something in your argument? 

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

I do not know whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC and I think that a comparison between NDX2 and NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC would indeed be an interesting test. If the NDX2 turns out to be better than the NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC chain, then we can happily bury the old nDAC (budget permitting) and focus on the new streamers.

Also, a comparison between NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC and DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC would make it possible to compare the NDX2 as a transport to the DigiOne Signature.

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

If you still have the NDX2 it should be easy to check whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC by comparing

Ethernet > DigiOne (DigiOne Signature) > DC1 > NDX2

to

Ethernet > DigiOne (DigiOne Signature) > DC1 > nDAC

The other way round, a comparison between

Ethernet > DigiOne Signature > DC1 > NDX2

and

Ethernet > NDX2

will allow you to assess the differences between the DigiOne Signature and the streaming card of the NDX2, the ND800. This is, to the best of my knowledge, also the card used in the ND555. Best, nbpf

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

I do not know whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC and I think that a comparison between NDX2 and NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC would indeed be an interesting test. If the NDX2 turns out to be better than the NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC chain, then we can happily bury the old nDAC (budget permitting) and focus on the new streamers.

Also, a comparison between NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC and DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC would make it possible to compare the NDX2 as a transport to the DigiOne Signature.

Remember it’s about implementation. The DAC in the Naim DAC is the same as in the ND555 and CDX2 for example.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

I do not know whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC and I think that a comparison between NDX2 and NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC would indeed be an interesting test. If the NDX2 turns out to be better than the NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC chain, then we can happily bury the old nDAC (budget permitting) and focus on the new streamers.

Also, a comparison between NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC and DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC would make it possible to compare the NDX2 as a transport to the DigiOne Signature.

Remember it’s about implementation. The DAC in the Naim DAC is the same as in the ND555 and CDX2 for example.

Right, I have used the word DAC to mean more than the bare DAC chip. The chip is still the PCM1704 in NDX2, ND555, nDAC, etc. But the data flow control is slightly different in the new streamer and then, of course, the implementations are different.

Still, connecting the DigiOne (or the DigiOne Signature) to the S/PDIF inputs of nDAC and NDX2 would allow one to estimate the quality of the DAC board (and input interfaces) of the NDX2.

If this turned out to be better than the nDAC, the NDX2 would be a significant improvement over the NDX: typically NDX > nDAC has been preferred to NDX alone. Is NDX 2 > nDAC still preferred to NDX 2 alone?

Michael1702's findings seem to suggest that this might not be the case! This would be an interesting result and an incentive for nDAC users to upgrade to NDX 2.

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

Here we go... 

As good as the Allo DigiOne Signature sounds, there has to be a difference for 17 x the price. And there definitely is:  a finer resolution and more details. It just fits to the whole system it's made for. 

...

I am trying to understand your report: the above judgement refers to a comparison between

Ethernet > DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC

and

Ethernet > NDX 2

in your original system, right? Your finding is that the NDX 2 sounds better than the DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC chain. But the price of the NDX2 is less than 2 times the price of the  DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC chain, not 17 times that price! This would be a very clear statement in favour of the NDX 2. Am I missing something in your argument? 

Yes, that's right. 

And you are right, I made a mistake and I left the nDAC out of the equation. If you don't have the nDAC I would definitely go for the NDX2 at 1.6 x the price. ; -) 

Just listening to the Signature I still like it a lot. I know the NDX2 sounds better but there's always something better. ;-)

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

If you still have the NDX2 it should be easy to check whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC by comparing

Ethernet > DigiOne (DigiOne Signature) > DC1 > NDX2

to

Ethernet > DigiOne (DigiOne Signature) > DC1 > nDAC

The other way round, a comparison between

Ethernet > DigiOne Signature > DC1 > NDX2

and

Ethernet > NDX2

will allow you to assess the differences between the DigiOne Signature and the streaming card of the NDX2, the ND800. This is, to the best of my knowledge, also the card used in the ND555. Best, nbpf

Unfortunately what my dealer didn't want to leave the NDX2 here.  Currently he has to wait a few weeks for the next ones to arrive. 

nbpf posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

I do not know whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC and I think that a comparison between NDX2 and NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC would indeed be an interesting test. If the NDX2 turns out to be better than the NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC chain, then we can happily bury the old nDAC (budget permitting) and focus on the new streamers.

Also, a comparison between NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC and DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC would make it possible to compare the NDX2 as a transport to the DigiOne Signature.

Remember it’s about implementation. The DAC in the Naim DAC is the same as in the ND555 and CDX2 for example.

Right, I have used the word DAC to mean more than the bare DAC chip. The chip is still the PCM1704 in NDX2, ND555, nDAC, etc. But the data flow control is slightly different in the new streamer and then, of course, the implementations are different.

Still, connecting the DigiOne (or the DigiOne Signature) to the S/PDIF inputs of nDAC and NDX2 would allow one to estimate the quality of the DAC board (and input interfaces) of the NDX2.

If this turned out to be better than the nDAC, the NDX2 would be a significant improvement over the NDX: typically NDX > nDAC has been preferred to NDX alone. Is NDX 2 > nDAC still preferred to NDX 2 alone?

Michael1702's findings seem to suggest that this might not be the case! This would be an interesting result and an incentive for nDAC users to upgrade to NDX 2.

I don't know much about the chips but I looked it up: ND555: PCM1704, NDX2: PCM1792A, nDAC: PCM1704K

Maybe in a few weeks I can demo it again and try it with the nDAC. 

Meanwhile I will try powering the clean side of the Signature with the USB power from the nDAC later. 

michael1702 posted:

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

If you still have the NDX2 it should be easy to check whether ...

Unfortunately what my dealer didn't want to leave the NDX2 here.  Currently he has to wait a few weeks for the next ones to arrive. 

Too bad ... you would certainly have contributed to run in the device over the weekend! Perhaps he wanted to listen to the NDX2 himself ...

michael1702 posted:

nbpf posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted:

michael1702 posted:

We talked about but didn't demo NDX2 into the nDAC because my dealer told me (and I believe it too) that the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the nDAC. 

I do not know whether the DAC in the NDX2 is better than the one in the nDAC and I think that a comparison between NDX2 and NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC would indeed be an interesting test. If the NDX2 turns out to be better than the NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC chain, then we can happily bury the old nDAC (budget permitting) and focus on the new streamers.

Also, a comparison between NDX2 > DC1 > nDAC and DigiOne Signature > DC1 > nDAC would make it possible to compare the NDX2 as a transport to the DigiOne Signature.

Remember it’s about implementation. The DAC in the Naim DAC is the same as in the ND555 and CDX2 for example.

Right, I have used the word DAC to mean more than the bare DAC chip. The chip is still the PCM1704 in NDX2, ND555, nDAC, etc. But the data flow control is slightly different in the new streamer and then, of course, the implementations are different.

Still, connecting the DigiOne (or the DigiOne Signature) to the S/PDIF inputs of nDAC and NDX2 would allow one to estimate the quality of the DAC board (and input interfaces) of the NDX2.

If this turned out to be better than the nDAC, the NDX2 would be a significant improvement over the NDX: typically NDX > nDAC has been preferred to NDX alone. Is NDX 2 > nDAC still preferred to NDX 2 alone?

Michael1702's findings seem to suggest that this might not be the case! This would be an interesting result and an incentive for nDAC users to upgrade to NDX 2.

I don't know much about the chips but I looked it up: ND555: PCM1704, NDX2: PCM1792A, nDAC: PCM1704K

Maybe in a few weeks I can demo it again and try it with the nDAC. 

Meanwhile I will try powering the clean side of the Signature with the USB power from the nDAC later. 

Thanks for the clarification! The Naim ND555 white paper (https://www.naimaudio.com/site...0Paper%20Final_0.pdf) provides some details about the DAC board of the device and about the streaming board of the new streamers.

I hope that in a few week we will know a little bit more about the NDX 2. When I demoed the ND555 my dealer had no NDX 2 available, I think the first devices have been delivered only two or three weeks ago. I am not really planning to buy  any of the new streamers at the moment but if the NDX 2 alone would turn out to sound significantly better than the NDX 2 into the Naim DAC, that would be a very interesting result, I think.

I am looking forward to the outcome of your experiments, if the DigiOne Signature powered by the nDAC turns out to be significantly better than the DigiOne (also powered by the nDAC) I would certainly order one.

If you are not aiming for the NDX2 short time the Signature is a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion. 

But be sure you power it with the battery pack. To me it sounds better than powering it via nDAC's USB or SWPS. 

You might want to check out https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...ainst-the-ndx2-555ps.

I find the idea interesting to compare the NDX2 with the ND5 XS 2 -> nDAC. Lets wait till it is available and call the dealer. ;-)

michael1702 posted:

If you are not aiming for the NDX2 short time the Signature is a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion. 

But be sure you power it with the battery pack. To me it sounds better than powering it via nDAC's USB or SWPS. 

Thanks for your assessment. If I upgrade to the Signature, I will certain try the battery pack although only as a temporary solution. Allo will soon announce the Nirvana PSU, I guess. Otherwise UpTone Audio PSUs should be a viable approach for powering the Signature. I am not really in a hurry and I will wait a little bit to see how the Signature and the NDX2 do fare and if Naim finally comes out with a new DAC. In the meantime I will upgrade my power distribution and perhaps order a JS-2. Or just buy a few tickets for live concerts. There are so many interesting concerts coming up! Best, nbpf    

michael1702 posted:

You might want to check out https://forums.naimaudio.com/t...ainst-the-ndx2-555ps.

I find the idea interesting to compare the NDX2 with the ND5 XS 2 -> nDAC. Lets wait till it is available and call the dealer. ;-)

Interesting, thanks!

RX8R3Rod

Thanks for the info on the Signature. I have the DigiOne now, would I buy a new signature, case, Pi etc or can I just buy an ‘upgrade’ as it where ?

alsonhave you played with the impact of isolation on the Pi ? Does it matter where it sits? Floor? Rack etc ?

finally and thoughts on the best psu for the DigiOne - I am just using what it was supplied with right now 

cheers

rob

Hi Mort2k, 

The Signature is effectively an upgrade; just whip the Digione off your Pi and replace with the Signature. The Drivers are the same so no software updates required. I suspect you may need a new case though? (not entirely sure on that, as until I bought the Signature I ran mine without a case).

I think isolation or vibration grounding or general stuff like that does make a difference. Mine sits on a rack, with each foot of the case on a Sound Dead Steel (now called Soundeck(?)) constrained-layer disc.

Power supplies do seem to make a really big difference. My other half who claims she ‘just enjoys music’ can hear the difference quite clearly.

As you’ll probably have gathered, you need 2 power supplies, one for (effectively) the Pi and one for the Sig. IME both make a significant improvement. (All of this said in the context of my system and mains supply, of course, YMMV).

I’m constantly experimenting to date with this but LiPo 18650 batteries is a really good (and low cost) place to start with the Signature, and ditto something like an iFi iPower for the Pi, or the Allo supply plus something like an iFi DC Purifier. The DC iPurifier also helps the iPower, in my experience... but that seemingly isn’t universal.

If you’re using iPowers the John Swenson grounding mod really helps, and only cost about 50p. ????

i’m Currently using a 9v iPower that’s further regulated and filtered to drive the Signature (or batteries), and a 9v iPower > iFi DC iPurifier > iFi Nano usb 3.0 to drive the Pi.

the Uptone LPS is reportedly also very good.

Seemingly anything that helps provide a cleaner supply to both Pi and Signature, without dumping too much crud back into the mains, will pay dividends.

(BTW, a couple of Jitterbugs on the Pi also seems to pay.)

Hope that helps?

Mort2k posted:

RX8R3Rod

Thanks for the info on the Signature. I have the DigiOne now, would I buy a new signature, case, Pi etc or can I just buy an ‘upgrade’ as it where ? 

The Signature consists of two boards. So you need another case. 

Good clarification thanks Michael,  I'd always just run mine naked until the Signature came along where for some unknown reason I thought I should buy a case ...

I'd be curious to know how this compares to the USBridge.

dmo posted:

I'd be curious to know how this compares to the USBridge.

In which sense? The DigiOne Signature has S/PDIF outputs, the USBridge has USB outputs. You could try comparing them wih a DAC that has both S/PDIF and USB inputs but then it would not be clear whether you are comparing the quality of the sources or the quality of the DAC inputs. It is easier to compare the DigiOne Signature to other devices that have a S/PDIF output like CD players, Naim NDX, NDX2, Core, and, of course ... the standard Digione.

nbpf posted:

dmo posted:

I'd be curious to know how this compares to the USBridge.

In which sense? The DigiOne Signature has S/PDIF outputs, the USBridge has USB outputs. You could try comparing them wih a DAC that has both S/PDIF and USB inputs but then it would not be clear whether you are comparing the quality of the sources or the quality of the DAC inputs. It is easier to compare the DigiOne Signature to other devices that have a S/PDIF output like CD players, Naim NDX, NDX2, Core, and, of course ... the standard Digione.

Yes, I was referring to comparing with a DAC that has both S/PDIF & USB inputs. I have a USBridge right now, used as a Roon endpoint and I was curious if anyone had compared both, and could determine any difference (Good or Bad). 

Some measurements about the DigiOne Signature have been posted on the "Audio Science Review" site. I am not sure that they are relevant though, they seem to say very little about the DigiOne Signature, expecially in comparison with the standard DigiOne.

nbpf posted:

Some measurements about the DigiOne Signature have been posted on the "Audio Science Review" site. I am not sure that they are relevant though, they seem to say very little about the DigiOne Signature, expecially in comparison with the standard DigiOne.

I had a look -- to be honest, I didn't take away much either...

Ricardo22 posted:

 

I got my DigiOne signature a few days ago. It sounds better than the DigiOne, but they are not huge differences. If I had to express it in numbers, I would say 20% better. I connected the SPDIF output to the digital input of my NDS. That was the real surprise for me. Sounds much better than the network input. Now I only use the NDS as a DAC.

Interesting, how was the DigiOne previously connected to the NDS? How are you powering the DigiOne Signature? Thanks, nbpf