Brexit or Bust !!

I believe that one of the principle reasons for people supporting Brexit was to prevent migration of EU citizens from Eastern Europe (and Turkey - one of the major scare stories of the Brexit campaign) into the UK. If we don’t have a ‘Hard border’ between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, can someone please explain how this can be achieved?

Hmack posted:

I believe that one of the principle reasons for people supporting Brexit was to prevent migration of EU citizens from Eastern Europe (and Turkey - one of the major scare stories of the Brexit campaign) into the UK. If we don’t have a ‘Hard border’ between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, can someone please explain how this can be achieved?

 

EU citizens from Eastern Europe are, at the moment free to come to the UK and work/live.

After Brexit, if they crossed an open Ireland/NI border, they would be illegal immigrants. There is a difference, we’d be able to round em up and ship em back.

Don, my guess is similar to yours in that this will likely result in a second referendum as Parliament will be unable to agree on the type of Brexit it wants, if any. My own hope is for a two stage elimination referendum with three initial options:

1. Deal.

2. No deal.

3. Remain.

The option with the least votes after the first round gets eliminated ready for the second and final round of voting which has only the two most popular options, the winner off which will be final and binding.

Filipe posted:

Trade deals these days are very complex and about many more things than trade. If you want to retain sovereignty then it’s best to stick to WTO rules! 

Phil

Oh, you mean UK won’t have the freedom to do or not do absolutely anything it wants? 

Now what was that about leaving EU to gain “freedom”???

Innocent Bystander posted:

Filipe posted:

Trade deals these days are very complex and about many more things than trade. If you want to retain sovereignty then it’s best to stick to WTO rules! 

Phil

Oh, you mean UK won’t have the freedom to do or not do absolutely anything it wants? 

Now what was that about leaving EU to gain “freedom”???

Something to do with the lesser of two weevils (Patrick O’Brian)!

Phil

Kevin-W posted:

[@mention:74356846675335341] and [@mention:12970396060785205] - this is precisely why so many in Blighty want to leave.

We never had these problems with the EEC which was - CAP and CFP aside - a pretty good idea.

Brussels' mania for ever-stricter rules and ever-closer union will one day be its undoing I suspect.

Conversely, within the EU, there are no borders, and you're free to go wherever you wish... isn't that wonderful, Kevin?

As for "ever stricter rules", well, that seems to be the case with any nation - unfortunately, the modern world seems to call for "ever stricter rules", and Britain is no exception.

Filipe posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Filipe posted:

Trade deals these days are very complex and about many more things than trade. If you want to retain sovereignty then it’s best to stick to WTO rules! 

Phil

Oh, you mean UK won’t have the freedom to do or not do absolutely anything it wants? 

Now what was that about leaving EU to gain “freedom”???

Something to do with the lesser of two weevils (Patrick O’Brian)!

 

Phil

And are you really sovereign if you have to follow WTO-rules?  And how about NATO-rules? The UN? WHO? EBU?

I tried to understand brexit last year. My conclusion was that it is just plain old protectionism with some marketing spin.

Everyone will have their own view on how tied to rules they want to be. Many of us  were brought up to understand that there are rules to be obeyed for the sake of harmony etc. Nothing wrong with rules, but the European project kept changing the rules as part of it quest for an ever closer union that challenges our national identity most obviously through the free movement of people. 

I personally feel that close cooperation with the EU is important and the middle way is ok as long as in the next phase of negotiations the EU cannot ride roughshod over us. There is not enough discussion at Westminster about whether the deal is sufficient. Labour have more than enough in the deal to support their capitulation of staying in the Single Market and customs union. The border issue is divisive giving the DUP a far bigger voice than they deserve. They are anti the Belfast Agreement and would be happy to see a hard border. It’s about time Westminster starts focusing on the national interest rather than acting like a divided nation.

Phil

jlarsson posted:

 

And are you really sovereign if you have to follow WTO-rules?  And how about NATO-rules? The UN? WHO? EBU?

I tried to understand brexit last year. My conclusion was that it is just plain old protectionism with some marketing spin.

 

Some members on here were suggesting “freedom” to do as we please (without once defining what exactly they felt Britsin can’t do in the EU that it would want to do.

However there have been far more suggestions that immigration is the biggest reason for wanting to leave. And media coverage at the time of the referendum showed people declaring their belief and desire that it will result in the coloured people living in their area being returned “home” (though as they are almost certainly mostly second generation they are not immigrants, let alone anything to do with the EU!). I have been shocked to realise the extent of racism today in Britain, a country that I grew up in and where through my lifetime we accepted and welcomed immigrant peoples, with just small minority groups like National Front displaying any racism, and certainly the people I have mixed with, in a variety of places across the UK, there has never been any evidence of racist tendencies. I am horrified at what has been revealed, stirred up or created through the Brexit process, and where once I was proud to be British I am now ashamed to be British.

Actually my shame in being Brutish started with the crass behaviour of a lot of Brits abroad, from football hooliganism to excessive drunkenness and crass behaviour of Brits in holiday locations, but Brexit and the associated racism has changed it from shame to admit I am British when abroad, to simply being ashamed of being British.

I spent a part of the xmas break in Holland and the people we spoke to in the hotel and at a concert said they loved the British. They also expressed concerns about uncontrolled migration from the new EU countries, such as Bulgaria/Romania and they also stated their distrust of Germany and its sway of EU policy. Just to repeat these were ordinary Dutch folks we encountered in everyday places and not a NF meeting.

So you can be ashamed all you like, I am not. Britain has achieved a great deal in terms of multi-cultarism over the last 20 years - certainly far better than most European countries. For example, Inter Milan supporters have been banned from watching two home games because of repeatedly making monkey noises at black players from opposing teams. Also, the England fans were well behaved at the recent World Cup in Russia.

I know none of this fits with the narrative you tend to push IB but I think different experiences and views are equally valid.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

I know none of this fits with the narrative you tend to push IB but I think different experiences and views are equally valid.

 

Nothing whatsoever wrong with expressing different views! (Though it would be helpful for people to respond when asked for further clarification for those who don’t understand those, which some people decline to do.)

And it is indeed interesting to learn more about how other countries fiel about the EU: indeed, I think exploring more with individual member countries would be the key to altering the inexorable centralisation (which is the key thing about the EU that I think is pretty near to being universally agreed as undesirable by both Brexit supporters and those who want to remain in the EU).

(BTW, I don’t in any way like being ashamed, as you seem to suggest - but it is an unavoidable feeling upon becoming aware of seemingly widespread racism amongst my compatriots - Inthought all that had been all but defeated, marking Britain as more civilised in that respect than some other English-speaking countries.)

Innocent Bystander posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I know none of this fits with the narrative you tend to push IB but I think different experiences and views are equally valid.

 

Nothing whatsoever wrong with expressing different views! (Though it would be helpful for people to respond when asked for further clarification for those who don’t understand those, which some people decline to do.)

And it is indeed interesting to learn more about how other countries fiel about the EU: indeed, I think exploring more with individual member countries would be the key to altering the inexorable centralisation (which is the key thing about the EU that I think is pretty near to being universally agreed as undesirable by both Brexit supporters and those who want to remain in the EU).

(BTW, I don’t in any way like being ashamed, as you seem to suggest - but it is an unavoidable feeling upon becoming aware of seemingly widespread racism amongst my compatriots - Inthought all that had been all but defeated, marking Britain as more civilised in that respect than some other English-speaking countries.)

I think it is naive of you to think that racism is not widespread amongst your compatriots.

I believe it is (demonstrably) widespread amongst all cultures and countries (eg UK, Italy, France, Germany, Eastern Europe, China, USA, Russia, Pakistan, India, etc etc). However in some of those countries, it is nowadays unfashionable (or illegal even), but not all, to express racist sentiments, however that does not eliminate racism - it simply covers it up - we are, after all, discussing “human nature”. The reason that the plays of Shakespeare are as relevant today as when they were written is that they are stories about human nature - nothing else. The things that have changed in the interim are all technology-related but, nonetheless, the species still murders, cheats, thieves, adulters and, yes, is still racist - we can just do/be all those things quicker, cheaper, better nowadays. That (imho) is the reality of modern society.

I feel no shame whatsoever about being British. Quite the opposite actually - I believe that all Brits won the lottery of life ...

I grow tired of people talking the country down, especially those who posit the idea that we are a nation of intolerant racists. From my own experiences at work and those of my wife and grown up children, I know this is just not the case. For sure racism was endemic here in the 70s, 80s but it has been pushed to the margins since.

I think a good marker of how civilised a country is can be judged on peoples attitude to those less fortunate than themselves. According to one survey, we come joint second out of 150 counties in  the world with France, Spain and Belgium at a 100+.

Look at the riots in France, the present Hungarian dictator or the fact that Germany went for months without a government last year.

Yes the weather's not great and there's too much litter but I am definitely not ashamed.

Look at Javid's response to a few migrants crossing the channel, May's Windrush scandal, the rise of food bank use, homeless people dieing on the streets, read the UN HRC report into poverty and tell me that we live in a pleasant country. I am utterly shamed to have a UK passport.

thebigfredc posted:

I grow tired of people talking the country down, especially those who posit the idea that we are a nation of intolerant racists. From my own experiences at work and those of my wife and grown up children, I know this is just not the case. For sure racism was endemic here in the 70s, 80s but it has been pushed to the margins since.

I think a good marker of how civilised a country is can be judged on peoples attitude to those less fortunate than themselves. According to one survey, we come joint second out of 150 counties in  the world with France, Spain and Belgium at a 100+.

Look at the riots in France, the present Hungarian dictator or the fact that Germany went for months without a government last year.

Yes the weather's not great and there's too much litter but I am definitely not ashamed.

If, as your comment suggests, you feel I posit the idea we are racists, that is not the case - I merely summed up the overwhelming impression of what has been said and presented on this forum and  in the media on that subject. As for talking our country down, presenting statements of the feeling the current public debates leave me with about the country are just that, likewise realistic predictions of the outcome of a hard Brexit, particularly if it is with no deal. Neither are “talking the country down” - but perhaps although that response followed mine you were not including me in your statement. Meanwhile the self-serving politicians in Westminster themselves do a marvellous job of putting Brtain down, even if they don’t directly talk it down...

Regarding attitudes to less fortunate people, as well as scoring highly is a survey it would be good if the Government were to devote more attention themselves to building better services 

Maybe it is a pity that more people don’t find shame in the some of the ways Britain/Britons behave.

Reagrdless, I refer back to ‘Love Song’ posted a couple of days ago, and fervently hope we cal all pick up  something from its sentiments to make this yearbetter than the last - regardless of what Brexit may or may not bring.

NAJB posted:

Look at Javid's response to a few migrants crossing the channel, May's Windrush scandal, the rise of food bank use, homeless people dieing on the streets, read the UN HRC report into poverty and tell me that we live in a pleasant country. I am utterly shamed to have a UK passport.

I'd argue that the actions of a few ambitious, self-serving politicians does not the define the identity and values of the UK people.  I'm with TheBigFredC on this.  I feel somewhat embarrassed at the behaviour of some of our politicians, particularly over the past few years, but I still feel proud to be British. We are on the whole a generous, well-meaning and tolerant society.    

thebigfredc posted:

I think a good marker of how civilised a country is can be judged on peoples attitude to those less fortunate than themselves. According to one survey, we come joint second out of 150 counties in  the world with France, Spain and Belgium at a 100+.

Look at the riots in France, the present Hungarian dictator or the fact that Germany went for months without a government last year

I'm not really sure what the three events that you quote have in common... what are you trying to say? That those countries are uncivilised?

Also, I'm interested in the survey you mention, would you have the link?

thebigfredc posted:

I grow tired of people talking the country down, especially those who posit the idea that we are a nation of intolerant racists. From my own experiences at work and those of my wife and grown up children, I know this is just not the case. For sure racism was endemic here in the 70s, 80s but it has been pushed to the margins since.

I think a good marker of how civilised a country is can be judged on peoples attitude to those less fortunate than themselves. According to one survey, we come joint second out of 150 counties in  the world with France, Spain and Belgium at a 100+.

Look at the riots in France, the present Hungarian dictator or the fact that Germany went for months without a government last year.

Yes the weather's not great and there's too much litter but I am definitely not ashamed.

I loved the few years I sent living in the UK and rate it as perhaps may favourite place I've lived for many reasons. But I did frequently encounter people who would express racist attitudes; perhaps no more than here in Canada. Yes, too much litter. I was amazed that people picnicing in the park by the Cathedral in Bristol would simply walk away from their garbage. By 4pm on Sundays, the park looked like a garbage tip. Council had it clean by Monday morning, though. The other aspect that I found objectionable was the widespread drunkenness and aggression in the town centres on weekends. 

Guys - we seem to be wondering off topic and into areas that have brought previous threads into 'moderation'.

I feel proud of our cultural heritage.

Think of all the sports we invented, and I don't just mean Footie and Cricket. I watched a programme on an old hotel in St Morritz which said about how the rich British aristocrats were the first ones to make the rules for many alpine event. Tennis, Rugby etc

And how about our rock and indie, bands. Or Punk, New wave, the Acid house scene. We also have fantastic classical orchestras. Looking at my CD collection perhaps only the States are better represented.

For Winky,

you are right our town centres can be threatening after midnight at the weekends but I would like to think that is on the wane. Three of my four grown up children barely drink and that is representative of the younger generation.  

regarding the litter, I suppose we in the UK should be grateful to the council, although littering is inexcusable in the first place. I have been to some countries where there isn't a local council and the litter just hangs around.

I watched Theresa May on this morning's Andrew Marr's show and was hoping for some insight. Unsurprisingly she concentrated on the merits of her draft deal.  While I listened very carefully I couldn't discern any detail on what she has been able to extract from the EU on the Irish Backstop. She continued to use the expression "assurances".  Nor would she be drawn on what happens if Parliament voted down her draft deal.  I suppose it's possible that she is holding something of substance to reveal to Parliament next week but it's very hard to see how anything has changed as compared to early December when she pulled the vote in the face of a likely defeat.   

Only a couple of weeks to go! : )

In fourteen days from now, Britain will [ demographically ] switch from a pro-Brexit to an anti-Brexit country. To be more precise: if not a single voter in the referendum two and a half years ago changes their mind, enough mainly Leave voters will have died, and enough mainly Remain voters will have reached voting age, to wipe out the fluke Leave majority that was underhandedly achieved in the in June 2016.

This is the clear conclusion from a new YouGov survey for the People's Vote Campaign. They show that demographic factors alone are causing the Leave majority to shrink by at least 1,350 per day, or around half a million a year. Crossover Day, when Remain moves into the lead, will be January 19th

By March 29, the day the UK is due to leave the European Union, the Remain majority will by around 100,000 – again, assuming that nobody who voted two years ago has changed their mind.

When May's daft withdrawal agreement is properly and finally rejected by parliament next week, and the No Deal blackmail threat option far too ridiculously undesirable, the only decent democratic alternative is to immediately cancel Article 50, and proceed with a People's Vote to regain the sanity of fresh political direction over the fundamentally flopped issue of Brexit, and to restore true decent democracy to the peoples of the UK.

Here’s hoping that is the way it goes!

naim_nymph posted

 

When May's daft withdrawal agreement is properly and finally rejected by parliament next week, and the No Deal blackmail threat option far too ridiculously undesirable, the only decent democratic alternative is to immediately cancel Article 50, and proceed with a People's Vote to regain the sanity of fresh political direction over the fundamentally flopped issue of Brexit, and to restore true decent democracy to the peoples of the UK.

Let's hope you're right. A (brilliant, informed and thoughtful) friend of mine expressed an identical prognosis to me last week. What a relief it would be.

naim_nymph posted:

Only a couple of weeks to go! : )

In fourteen days from now, Britain will [ demographically ] switch from a pro-Brexit to an anti-Brexit country. To be more precise: if not a single voter in the referendum two and a half years ago changes their mind, enough mainly Leave voters will have died, and enough mainly Remain voters will have reached voting age, to wipe out the fluke Leave majority that was underhandedly achieved in the in June 2016.

This is the clear conclusion from a new YouGov survey for the People's Vote Campaign. They show that demographic factors alone are causing the Leave majority to shrink by at least 1,350 per day, or around half a million a year. Crossover Day, when Remain moves into the lead, will be January 19th

By March 29, the day the UK is due to leave the European Union, the Remain majority will by around 100,000 – again, assuming that nobody who voted two years ago has changed their mind.

When May's daft withdrawal agreement is properly and finally rejected by parliament next week, and the No Deal blackmail threat option far too ridiculously undesirable, the only decent democratic alternative is to immediately cancel Article 50, and proceed with a People's Vote to regain the sanity of fresh political direction over the fundamentally flopped issue of Brexit, and to restore true decent democracy to the peoples of the UK.

An interesting piece of analysis, Debs. It will be interesting to see if any MPs drawn on it during the debate.  This morning on Andrew Marr's show, TM was again stating her outright rejection of another referendum, even in the face of Marr's subsequent assertion to her that in the event of her deal being rejected, and her ruling out another referendum, this logically meant she would support leaving without a deal that everyone agrees would be economically very damaging. She's clearly treating the 2016 referendum result as something unmovable and based on the premise that, apart from the demographics, no-one ever changes their mind, even though she has been shown to regularly change hers!