Bitcoin

Getting ready for bed and noticed Bitcoin is trading at $9,929.99. Hopefully it'll blow past the 10,000 mark over night.

Despite the optimism displayed by quite a few forum members here, I won't be investing my hard earned money in Bitcoin or any other virtual currency.

I spent most of my working life in the financial services sector, an much of that time for the investment arm of a company in that sector.

I dabbled (in a virtual sense) in investments, in that I ran a virtual investment portfolio for a couple of years, with a view to eventually moving into the real investment world. My virtual portfolio was spectacularly successful, leading to my mistaken belief that I really had the market 'sussed''. Luckily for me the .com bubble burst just before I made my move into the real world. My virtual portfolio was decimated almost overnight, but luckily I ended up only losing a relatively small amount of real money.

My biggest regret is not following a friend's advice to buy shares in a little company (called EBay) which I had barely heard of at the time. But that's in the past for me, and I certainly won't be investing my money in virtual currency.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Hook posted:

Just heard a few Bitcoin predictions for next year from Michael Novogratz of Galaxy Investment Partners.

He thinks that the recently established Bitcoin futures trading market should reduce the amount of volatility. His also said that, by the end of the year, Bitcoin will look more like a currency. He thinks there will be a new lending marketplace based on Bitcoin, with its own yield curve.  His final prediction was a Bitcoin target price of $40,000.

This is the same guy who predicted $10,000 for the end of 2017 back in September.

 

 

The contracts all settle in USD. How will these futures have any impact on BTC price  which is only traded on unregulated exchanges? I'm only interested when I can take delivery of BTC before contract expires. I just do not see how this is supposed to work.

I think his theory is that if institutional investors can buy regulated Bitcoin futures as a hedge against the risk of prices rising or falling, they will be more comfortable taking longer-term Bitcoin positions. This should lead to less volatility - less of the herd mentality we see today - regardless of when or if the exchanges themselves are ultimately regulated.

The Bitcoin futures markets will be strictly regulated, as will ETFs. These derivatives should add credibility to the Bitcoin marketplace, thus attracting institutions and longer-term individual investors. Right now, Bitcoin exchanges seem to be dominated by day traders and market timers.

Hook posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Hook posted:

Just heard a few Bitcoin predictions for next year from Michael Novogratz of Galaxy Investment Partners.

He thinks that the recently established Bitcoin futures trading market should reduce the amount of volatility. His also said that, by the end of the year, Bitcoin will look more like a currency. He thinks there will be a new lending marketplace based on Bitcoin, with its own yield curve.  His final prediction was a Bitcoin target price of $40,000.

This is the same guy who predicted $10,000 for the end of 2017 back in September.

 

 

The contracts all settle in USD. How will these futures have any impact on BTC price  which is only traded on unregulated exchanges? I'm only interested when I can take delivery of BTC before contract expires. I just do not see how this is supposed to work.

I think his theory is that if institutional investors can buy regulated Bitcoin futures as a hedge against the risk of prices rising or falling, they will be more comfortable taking longer-term Bitcoin positions. This should lead to less volatility - less of the herd mentality we see today - regardless of when or if the exchanges themselves are ultimately regulated.

The Bitcoin futures markets will be strictly regulated, as will ETFs. These derivatives should add credibility to the Bitcoin marketplace, thus attracting institutions and longer-term individual investors. Right now, Bitcoin exchanges seem to be dominated by day traders and market timers.

Just like the silver market is regulated... Chase bank held a 300,000,000 ounce short position in silver. ????

If the contract can't/won't be settled with BTC then it is just ... ummm.... bankers trying to manipulate the market to their advantage? 

There is literally no connection between "actual Bitcoin" and these derivatives. I'm calling it a scam until at least margins are paid with real bitcoins.

I'm going to laugh myself silly when JP Morgan naked shorts 1,000,000 BTC and either ends up bankrupt or the real Bitcoin market doesn't react to this fake market.

To short a so-called "asset" that has seen rapidly escalating prices, but with no underlying value, would seem to be a pretty valid strategy. Having said that, there seems no shortage of suckers piling on, so timing that trade may involve a LOT of pain.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

dave marshall posted:

Thanks Simon,

Phew, who'd have imagined it was so complicated, (or maybe that's just me)?

Initial purchases, via Coinbase were, and remain, perfectly straightforward.

My subsequent purchase of Vertcoin was quite easy, transferring, as Kevin advised, Bitcoin to Bittrex, in order to purchase Vertcoin.

My thinking was that I would then initiate an external Vertcoin wallet, and transfer my Vertcoin to it, but before I can move anything from Bittrex, I find that I now have to go through a confirmation process to upgrade my Bittrex account.

Once I've completed this process, would you also recommend, as Kevin has, the Ledger hardware wallet?

Yes the identity confirmation is a method to prevent illegal money laundering... most exchanges do this... it’s all usually very straightforward... often requiring driving licence, utility bill and or passport. I use a Trezor hardware wallet... and it contains my Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin keys. The wallet has excellent method of security and strategy to circumvent infected wallet host computers, and key recovery in case you loose your device... as well as protection strategies if the Trezor is stolen and is being brute force attacked. Not sure if Trezor supports Vertcoin however.

BTW transactions with your personal private keys is really simple, and receiving crypto is even easier... you just have people send to your public crypto address.. think of it like an email address.

Have you been able to claim your "Bitcoin Gold" coins on your Trezor?

I wasn’t holding Bitcoin at the time of that fork.... so I don’t know

btw to your other posts, Bitcoin has been greater than $10k on quite a few exchanges now especially in Asia.. and the sky hasn’t fallen in... I suspect 10k will pass quickly on the US exchanges one the current resistance has passed ... and could well be 11 to 12k by new year..... it could also be 6k by New Year... but if it does drop i suspect it will be a very short lived dip....

Kevin Richardson posted:

Hook posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Hook posted:

Just heard a few Bitcoin predictions for next year from Michael Novogratz of Galaxy Investment Partners.

He thinks that the recently established Bitcoin futures trading market should reduce the amount of volatility. His also said that, by the end of the year, Bitcoin will look more like a currency. He thinks there will be a new lending marketplace based on Bitcoin, with its own yield curve.  His final prediction was a Bitcoin target price of $40,000.

This is the same guy who predicted $10,000 for the end of 2017 back in September.

 

 

The contracts all settle in USD. How will these futures have any impact on BTC price  which is only traded on unregulated exchanges? I'm only interested when I can take delivery of BTC before contract expires. I just do not see how this is supposed to work.

I think his theory is that if institutional investors can buy regulated Bitcoin futures as a hedge against the risk of prices rising or falling, they will be more comfortable taking longer-term Bitcoin positions. This should lead to less volatility - less of the herd mentality we see today - regardless of when or if the exchanges themselves are ultimately regulated.

The Bitcoin futures markets will be strictly regulated, as will ETFs. These derivatives should add credibility to the Bitcoin marketplace, thus attracting institutions and longer-term individual investors. Right now, Bitcoin exchanges seem to be dominated by day traders and market timers.

Just like the silver market is regulated... Chase bank held a 300,000,000 ounce short position in silver. ????

If the contract can't/won't be settled with BTC then it is just ... ummm.... bankers trying to manipulate the market to their advantage? 

There is literally no connection between "actual Bitcoin" and these derivatives. I'm calling it a scam until at least margins are paid with real bitcoins.

I'm going to laugh myself silly when JP Morgan naked shorts 1,000,000 BTC and either ends up bankrupt or the real Bitcoin market doesn't react to this fake market.

Yes I agree ... these sorts of fiat derivatives to my mind are far more destabilising than crypto currencies... but because they come from the ‘established’ traditional financial institutions  they are perceived by some as being ‘legitimate’.. the beauty of cryptos is that they are independent from this sort of rubbish.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

dave marshall posted:

Thanks Simon,

Phew, who'd have imagined it was so complicated, (or maybe that's just me)?

Initial purchases, via Coinbase were, and remain, perfectly straightforward.

My subsequent purchase of Vertcoin was quite easy, transferring, as Kevin advised, Bitcoin to Bittrex, in order to purchase Vertcoin.

My thinking was that I would then initiate an external Vertcoin wallet, and transfer my Vertcoin to it, but before I can move anything from Bittrex, I find that I now have to go through a confirmation process to upgrade my Bittrex account.

Once I've completed this process, would you also recommend, as Kevin has, the Ledger hardware wallet?

Yes the identity confirmation is a method to prevent illegal money laundering... most exchanges do this... it’s all usually very straightforward... often requiring driving licence, utility bill and or passport. I use a Trezor hardware wallet... and it contains my Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin keys. The wallet has excellent method of security and strategy to circumvent infected wallet host computers, and key recovery in case you loose your device... as well as protection strategies if the Trezor is stolen and is being brute force attacked. Not sure if Trezor supports Vertcoin however.

BTW transactions with your personal private keys is really simple, and receiving crypto is even easier... you just have people send to your public crypto address.. think of it like an email address.

Have you been able to claim your "Bitcoin Gold" coins on your Trezor?

I wasn’t holding Bitcoin at the time of that fork.... so I don’t know

btw to your other posts, Bitcoin has been greater than $10k on quite a few exchanges now especially in Asia.. and the sky hasn’t fallen in... I suspect 10k will pass quickly on the US exchanges one the current resistance has passed ... and could well be 11 to 12k by new year..... it could also be 6k by New Year... but if it does drop i suspect it will be a very short lived dip....

Today the volume weighted average price for Bitcoin hit $10,150. ????????????

So I woke up to volume weighted average price for bitcoin @ $11,450.

This really is a wonderful time to be alive.

Perhaps you should consider taking a small profit? Say 10% of your holding. I calculate that would be over $1m at current valuation. Just in case.

Kevin Richardson posted:

So I woke up to volume weighted average price for bitcoin @ $11,450.

This really is a wonderful time to be alive.

- Britain's economy threatened by our Brexit debacle.

- Donald Trump re-posting and supporting hateful and fake anti muslim tweets from a far right racist organisation in the UK.

- Kim Jong Un threatening World peace.

But this is a wonderful time to be alive just because you can make some money out of what isn't far away from being a glorified pyramid letter or Ponzi scheme? But of course, you are based in Antarctica, so you are probably immune from each of the above threats. Be careful though, because it won't be long before the megalomaniac (take your pick from the two) does something which will affect you.

Seriously though, do you really think that Bitcoin, and other crypto currencies are endless wells out of which everyone can drink and no one get ripped off?

I won some money on the UK Premium Bonds a little while back, but although I'm quite happy about the win, I don't brag about it. Of course though, a rise in the value of Bitcoin is dependant upon others following you and being willing to buy into the 'currency' at ever higher prices, so I guess it probably pays to advertise. 

Hmack posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

So I woke up to volume weighted average price for bitcoin @ $11,450.

This really is a wonderful time to be alive.

- Britain's economy threatened by our Brexit debacle.

- Donald Trump re-posting and supporting hateful and fake anti muslim tweets from a far right racist organisation in the UK.

- Kim Jong Un threatening World peace.

But this is a wonderful time to be alive just because you can make some money out of what isn't far away from being a glorified pyramid letter or Ponzi scheme? But of course, you are based in Antarctica, so you are probably immune from each of the above threats. Be careful though, because it won't be long before the megalomaniac (take your pick from the two) does something which will affect you.

Seriously though, do you really think that Bitcoin, and other crypto currencies are endless wells out of which everyone can drink and no one get ripped off?

I won some money on the UK Premium Bonds a little while back, but although I'm quite happy about the win, I don't brag about it. Of course though, a rise in the value of Bitcoin is dependant upon others following you and being willing to buy into the 'currency' at ever higher prices, so I guess it probably pays to advertise. 

 

It's great time in history because Bitcoin is succeeding in taking on the central banks control over mankind. Yes many things suck in current world affairs but at least Bitcoin offers some hope. I hate the Trump and Brexit shit shows. I'm unemployed/unemployable and have nothing to do with my time. Cryptocurrencies has become a hobby to keep my mind engaged and positive.

Most cryptos will fail and people will lose their value. I do believe Bitcoin will continue to grow over the long term.

My intention is to continue to update re Bitcoin and cryptos. My hope is to educate other like minded people. I believe several individuals have gotten into cryptos at least in part due to this thread. Maybe we will ultimately lose everything nobody knows for sure. I am convinced Bitcoin is a better opportunity than equities, bonds, or fiat.

If (when) Bitcoin crashes I'll also write about that.

I really do not care if you or 99% of the world thinks I'm a fool. I also am not going to lose a minute of sleep worrying that anybody on this forum is missing out on the greatest technological revolution of our generations. I am just here to talk about a topic for which I have some passion.

Hmack, your point about bragging is fair enough... however so called buying into bitcoin at higher prices is kind of meaningless... you buy into it at a relative level if you wish. Bitcoin is just a title, you can buy tiny fractions of it and it’s value becomes relative to what you bought that fraction at.. So it’s absolute price is kind irrelevant, it’s the relative price difference. I am sure it doesn’t apply to you, but I discovered yesterday several people I spoke to thought you could only buy bitcoin in discrete whole numbers.. like coins... of say $10k a piece, but of course that is not the case... I could buy $50 if I want.

I actually think there there are many positive things in the world, we kind of take for granted and seem to dwell on the negatives... perhaps it’s our media, but I don’t understand the morbid fascination with the negatives in the world... perhaps because good news is not considered really news worthy for some.

Kevin Richardson posted:

It's great time in history because Bitcoin is succeeding in taking on the central banks control over mankind. Yes many things suck in current world affairs but at least Bitcoin offers some hope. I hate the Trump and Brexit shit shows. I'm unemployed/unemployable and have nothing to do with my time. Cryptocurrencies has become a hobby to keep my mind engaged and positive.

Most cryptos will fail and people will lose their value. I do believe Bitcoin will continue to grow over the long term.

My intention is to continue to update re Bitcoin and cryptos. My hope is to educate other like minded people. I believe several individuals have gotten into cryptos at least in part due to this thread. Maybe we will ultimately lose everything nobody knows for sure. I am convinced Bitcoin is a better opportunity than equities, bonds, or fiat.

If (when) Bitcoin crashes I'll also write about that.

I really do not care if you or 99% of the world thinks I'm a fool. I also am not going to lose a minute of sleep worrying that anybody on this forum is missing out on the greatest technological revolution of our generations. I am just here to talk about a topic for which I have some passion.

So would it be true to say that you are attracted to what we might call disruption, the mere fact that in this case it is disruption of currency (or central banking) is almost irrelevant?

My question is not a criticism, instead a means of understanding.

Simon,

I am certainly aware that fractions of Bitcoin can be purchased, although I do admit that my knowledge of Bitcoin in general is pretty meagre. I have no interest in buying into the concept of crypto-currencies, and so have not bothered to read much about it save for a few headlines and a number of the posts on this forum.

I have no issue whatsoever with (most) people 'investing' in Bitcoin. I am absolutely certain that you, and most others in this forum who are dabbling with Bitcoin, are doing so responsibly, are well aware of the risks associated with your 'investment', and that for you the associated risks are well worth taking. I can also understand the excitement and 'fun' of dabbling in the financial markets in this way. As I mentioned in a previous post, I personally got a lot of pleasure (and made a huge amount of virtual money) from keeping a virtual investment portfolio for a number of years. Luckily the bubble I almost bought into in real life burst, and my investment skills (or lack of) were exposed just before I decided to dabble in the real world with some serious real money. I worked in the Investment arm of a financial services company, but I worked in their IT department and not as a fund manager for a very good reason. I like to think that I was pretty good at my real job, but I readily accept my limitations as an investor and leave this to those who manage my ISAs. I genuinely feel no regret whatsoever (well perhaps just a little) that I didn't invest some real money a little earlier when my virtual portfolio was riding so high. I simply wasn't prepared, and couldn't afford to accept the risks associated with any substantial gamble in the stock market.   

No, my issue is that along the way, a large number of people who probably (unlike you and others on this forum) can't afford to do so will probably stake life changing amounts of money in Bitcoin in the mistaken belief that it is a one way bet. I just don't believe that Bitcoin will be an endless well of money for the masses out there in the real world. However, I am not totally opposed to gambling, and I occasionally have a little flutter on the UK and Euro lotteries. I am also very happy to admit that the risks involved in my 'investment' in the lotteries are considerably higher than those if I chose to invest my money in Bitcoin, but I am more than happy to see most of my money go to charity, and only a little grudging towards those who actually win the prizes.  

As for your comment about those who focus on the negatives in this world, I take your point. There are many positive things out there, and I am not quite as much of a pessimist as I might sometimes appear from my posts.  However, there are some very major negatives out there at the moment, and whilst dabbling in Bitcoin might be fun, I wouldn't really view it as being particularly a 'good news' story.

Now, Robert Plant performing some of the great Zeppelin tracks brilliantly in his current tour, or Richard Thompson continuing to perform to his consistently high standard are good news, and if only Pink Floyd were to reform (sadly without Rick Wright), then my optimism would know no bounds.     

Hmack, thanks for your reply... and as I type there is a little *bit* of a correction going on.... Cryptos don’t always go up in value  against fiat..... and there has been a massive drop in the last hour...

Christopher_M posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

It's great time in history because Bitcoin is succeeding in taking on the central banks control over mankind. Yes many things suck in current world affairs but at least Bitcoin offers some hope. I hate the Trump and Brexit shit shows. I'm unemployed/unemployable and have nothing to do with my time. Cryptocurrencies has become a hobby to keep my mind engaged and positive.

Most cryptos will fail and people will lose their value. I do believe Bitcoin will continue to grow over the long term.

My intention is to continue to update re Bitcoin and cryptos. My hope is to educate other like minded people. I believe several individuals have gotten into cryptos at least in part due to this thread. Maybe we will ultimately lose everything nobody knows for sure. I am convinced Bitcoin is a better opportunity than equities, bonds, or fiat.

If (when) Bitcoin crashes I'll also write about that.

I really do not care if you or 99% of the world thinks I'm a fool. I also am not going to lose a minute of sleep worrying that anybody on this forum is missing out on the greatest technological revolution of our generations. I am just here to talk about a topic for which I have some passion.

So would it be true to say that you are attracted to what we might call disruption, the mere fact that in this case it is disruption of currency (or central banking) is almost irrelevant?

My question is not a criticism, instead a means of understanding.

I spent my career developing financial trading software systems for large banks. I also spent a lot of time reflecting on the questions "what is money? Why do people now need to 'invest' for retirement when my parents' generation 'saved' for their retirements? How is it morally acceptable for central banks to steal wealth from savers (like my parents) and hand it to the ultra wealthy/materialists?" After years thinking/talking about these questions, I recognized the real evil in our current banking system.

I lost almost everything of financial value as a direct result of the financial crisis of 2007-2008. I had no income for over 3 years. These years forced liquidation of my equities, sale of my condo at a huge loss, and depletion of my "savings". If that wasn't bad enough, it also ended my career. How could this happen to me? I am educated, driven, responsible and frugal (I've always lived the lifestyle of a person with a small fraction of my income.)  Even though I had accumulated significant wealth and no debt other than a mortgage, it still wasn't enough. When I sold my condo I had to provide a cashiers check for $xxx,xxx to cover the difference between what I owed and the proceeds of the sale. You might think I got one of those 0 down payment loans or some other nonsense. In fact I put 20% down and paid every month for 10 years. At that point I was essentially broke. What had I done to deserve potential homelessness and a life of poverty? Nothing. I did everything I was supposed to do as a responsible person and failed. If banker-fraudsters had acted morallly I'd still have my "old life". 

Having lost my home, career, and wealth; I vowed to minimize my future interaction with this corrupt system. As if by fate this was around the same time I learned about Bitcoin. The idea of a democratic deflationary currency outside the control of bankers perfectly meshed with my worldview.

I guess, to answer your question, I am not an anarchist or into disruption in general. I just hate how the bankers of the world have destroyed millions of lives all for their personal enrichment. At this point I'd rather lose everything in support of Bitcoin than contribute a single $ to our banker overlords. My hope is people will finally understand how the current banking system steals their wealth/freedom and will opt out by holding Bitcoin. 

In summary... f*ck the banks and their corruption.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack, thanks for your reply... and as I type there is a little *bit* of a correction going on.... Cryptos don’t always go up in value  against fiat..... and there has been a massive drop in the last hour...

You've got to love it when a "massive drop in price" still has Bitcoin > $10,000.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack, your point about bragging is fair enough... however so called buying into bitcoin at higher prices is kind of meaningless... you buy into it at a relative level if you wish. Bitcoin is just a title, you can buy tiny fractions of it and it’s value becomes relative to what you bought that fraction at.. So it’s absolute price is kind irrelevant, it’s the relative price difference. I am sure it doesn’t apply to you, but I discovered yesterday several people I spoke to thought you could only buy bitcoin in discrete whole numbers.. like coins... of say $10k a piece, but of course that is not the case... I could buy $50 if I want.

I actually think there there are many positive things in the world, we kind of take for granted and seem to dwell on the negatives... perhaps it’s our media, but I don’t understand the morbid fascination with the negatives in the world... perhaps because good news is not considered really news worthy for some.

That is actually the #1 problem preventing mass adoption. One of the first things I tell people is that "You don't need to buy a whole Bitcoin. You can buy as little as $1 worth at a time."

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmack, thanks for your reply... and as I type there is a little *bit* of a correction going on.... Cryptos don’t always go up in value  against fiat..... and there has been a massive drop in the last hour...

You've got to love it when a "massive drop in price" still has Bitcoin > $10,000.

To be fare, it did drop some way below $10k. But is back above there this morning... such is the way of crypto/fiat ratios.

Kevin Richardson posted:

I" lost almost everything of financial value as a direct result of the financial crisis of 2007-2008. I had no income for over 3 years. These years forced liquidation of my equities, sale of my condo at a huge loss, and depletion of my "savings". If that wasn't bad enough, it also ended my career. How could this happen to me?" 

I have no idea how this could happen to you, because I have no idea how you invested your money nor of the risk profile you chose to adopt whilst investing your money. However, I do sympathise with your predicament of the time.

"I recognized the real evil in our current banking system".

However, your reaction and your current approach sounds and feels a little bit more like that of a vendetta or religious crusade or support of outright anarchy rather than logic. Strange that I almost certainly come from a much more left wing oriented position and background than yourself, but I seem to be the one defending (at least to some extent) our banking systems. Yes, there are no doubt some corrupt people engaged in the banking system, and those at the top pay themselves obscene amounts of money, but you cannot possibly claim that the banking system itself and everyone involved in it is corrupt because of this.

"I spent my career developing financial trading software systems for large banks. I also spent a lot of time reflecting on the questions "what is money?"

I too spent much of my career designing, selecting and implementing financial trading and other investment related software and networks in a financial company that was very risk averse. I saw little, if any, evidence of inherent corruption of any sort in the system, and whilst I am of the opinion that distribution of wealth in our society and worldwide should be much more equitable I am certainly not in favour of anarchy. The big problem in my view was that institutions and those who invested the big money were attracted by the potential lucrative gains in the derivatives markets, but did not fully understand (because systems at the time were not capable of analysing them) the extremely complex underlying risks of some of these investment instruments. It wasn't a problem of overt corruption, just simply greed (that's the way the 'Free Market' works) and simple lack of knowledge or incompetency - take your pick. I spent much of my last few years helping to implement risk analytics and systems that would help avoid similar issues in the future.     

"My hope is people will finally understand how the current banking system steals their wealth/freedom and will opt out by holding Bitcoin".

I am sorry, but this is a sweeping and inherently flawed view of the world in general and the banking system (certainly in the UK and Europe) in particular. Perhaps you feel that you were ripped off by an individual or an individual institution, but this is not the basis on which most people should decide to invest in Bitcoin, unless they are happy to accept the massive inherent risks. 

"At this point I'd rather lose everything in support of Bitcoin than contribute a single $ to our banker overlords"

You obviously hold a massive grudge, and are free to adopt this (in my opinion) misguided and even potentially rather unhealthy view of the world. Who knows? In 5 or 10 years time you may be a millionaire or multi-millionaire as a result of your investment in Bitcoin whilst I am content to sit back and enjoy my retirement with my rather more conservative and relatively risk free approach to the investment of my meagre funds. However, I would personally be wary of anyone urging me to throw in all my chips to the Bitcoin section of the roulette wheel just to hit back at our "evil banker overlords".  

Yes, dabble with Bitcoin if you want and potentially make some money. However, don't throw all your eggs in the one basket and certainly don't do so on the basis of this is a way to "f*** the banks, the bankers and their corrupt systems", and to hell with the consequences.

I see bitcoin value is down 20% since I suggested you take some profit. Still, easy come, easy go.

I've asked my broker to advise if any of the funds I hold start to talk about taking a crypto position so that I can sell them immediately.

The IRS recently asked one of the exchanges (coinbase) to provide names of folks who have moved more than 20K. if the exchange complies (lawsuit), I suspect gameover for crypto currencies.