Bitcoin

Like you, I decided to have a dabble in this recently, and am using Coinbase, which seems to one of the better respected sites.

So far, they are trading only in Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin, so you may have to look elsewhere for other crypto currencies.

Dave***t posted:

So, for the uninitiated (i.e. me) - what does one need to to do invest a small amount of money in this stuff, i.e. less than the cost of one bitcoin or ethereum?  I'm considering a comparatively very small (couple of hundred quid, tops) investment to see what happens.

I presume there are sites etc, but it seems likely that there are also spurious and/or rip off sites.  So a word from the wise would be appreciated.

Use Coinbase to buy Bitcoin then trade on Bittrex for alt coins.

Kevin,

I'm unclear as to the mechanics of effecting a "transfer" of Bitcoin from Coinbase to Bittrex, in order to buy Vertcoin.

Any help, (in layman's terms), would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Dave.

Interesting editorial in the Guardian yesterday with the strap line:

"The only value of cryptocurrencies today lies in the expectation that someone else will buy them. But the supply of bigger fools must run out one day."

Full editorial available on line.

Jonn posted:

Interesting editorial in the Guardian yesterday with the strap line:

"The only value of cryptocurrencies today lies in the expectation that someone else will buy them. But the supply of bigger fools must run out one day."

Full editorial available on line.

 

 

The value is the probable future mass adoption of Bitcoin as a store of value / currency. No guarantees it will happen but if it does people holding them now will experience massive price appreciation.

Ive heard that "bigger fool" argument 100's of time over past five years. Some people care what the media tells them and don't bother to learn why Bitcoin will continue to appreciate relative to USD. 

dave marshall posted:

Kevin,

I'm unclear as to the mechanics of effecting a "transfer" of Bitcoin from Coinbase to Bittrex, in order to buy Vertcoin.

Any help, (in layman's terms), would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Dave.

You will create a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex. You then withdraw Bitcoin from Coinbase to the address of your Bittrex Bitcoin wallet.

To create the Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex goto the "deposit" page, select Bitcoin, and press the button to "add new address". Any Bitcoin sent to this address will get deposited into your Bittrex exchange account. 

Many thanks for your help, Kevin.

I've now successfully set up a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex, transferred some Bitcoin, and purchased Vertcoin with the funds.

All that's left to do is set up a Vertcoin wallet, (not as straightforward as it ought to be, I feel), and upgrade my new Bittrex account, so that I can shift the VTC into it.

Again, thanks for your assistance, with what is, for me, uncharted territory. 

dave marshall posted:

Many thanks for your help, Kevin.

I've now successfully set up a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex, transferred some Bitcoin, and purchased Vertcoin with the funds.

All that's left to do is set up a Vertcoin wallet, (not as straightforward as it ought to be, I feel), and upgrade my new Bittrex account, so that I can shift the VTC into it.

Again, thanks for your assistance, with what is, for me, uncharted territory. 

You might look into buying a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet. It supports Vertcoin.

Anyhoo... Congratulations and welcome to the future.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Slowly slowly my investments are rising... 30% on the way to my target... certainly rollercoaster at the moment.. so you need to look at average values and if you are brave day trade ... it works but can be nerve racking unless you have the discipline to do in small amounts... and you play a law of averages game as it doesn’t always work out.

Ethereum is at new all time high of $455.

A pre fork Bitcoin is now $10,269.

And LTC is at all time high of $92 this morning.. pushing $100. There has been an explosion of new money coming into crypto over the last few weeks seemingly from many parts of the world?

Kevin Richardson posted:

dave marshall posted:

Kevin,

I'm unclear as to the mechanics of effecting a "transfer" of Bitcoin from Coinbase to Bittrex, in order to buy Vertcoin.

Any help, (in layman's terms), would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Dave.

You will create a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex. You then withdraw Bitcoin from Coinbase to the address of your Bittrex Bitcoin wallet.

To create the Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex goto the "deposit" page, select Bitcoin, and press the button to "add new address". Any Bitcoin sent to this address will get deposited into your Bittrex exchange account. 

Exactly.. I almost do this. However.... I transfer with LItecoin rather than Bitcoin, the block chain validation is  lot quicker ... minutes as opposed to hours and normally a lot cheaper, even with Bittrex LTC/BTC conversion fees.... and after all this was one of the functions  Litecoin was invented for 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Slowly slowly my investments are rising... 30% on the way to my target... certainly rollercoaster at the moment.. so you need to look at average values and if you are brave day trade ... it works but can be nerve racking unless you have the discipline to do in small amounts... and you play a law of averages game as it doesn’t always work out.

Ethereum is at new all time high of $455.

A pre fork Bitcoin is now $10,269.

And LTC is at all time high of $92 this morning.. pushing $100. There has been an explosion of new money coming into crypto over the last few weeks seemingly from many parts of the world?

Money isn't "coming in" at all in any meaningful sense. All that's happening is that people are agreeing on higher and higher valuations. Money is going out at the same rate it is coming in, as people selling take the cash and leave. There is no accumulating big pile of US dollars (or anything else) that is accumulating to justify or underpin the prices of crypto-currencies.

Not sure I follow... all I know there has been a recent significant rise in crypto purchasing and selling accounts in countries like the US and Korea, and that increase has roughly followed a significant rise in the total capitalisation value of various crypto block chains..... fresh money (fiat) has also seemed to add to the liquidity of various Cryptos whilst at the same time  increasing the valuation of many crypto block chains compared to fiat, but perhaps to your point certain crypto currency ratios have remained more aligned compared to the generally more widely varying ratios of crypto to fiat... Bitcoin and Litecoin is one such example. I guess also the supply of most crypto coins is not infinite and have a max number, and until that number is reached they have a decreasing inflation rate, ie less coins are created over time, which I guess in itself push the value if the crypto is seen as a commodity.

Kevin Richardson posted:

dave marshall posted:

Many thanks for your help, Kevin.

I've now successfully set up a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex, transferred some Bitcoin, and purchased Vertcoin with the funds.

All that's left to do is set up a Vertcoin wallet, (not as straightforward as it ought to be, I feel), and upgrade my new Bittrex account, so that I can shift the VTC into it.

Again, thanks for your assistance, with what is, for me, uncharted territory. 

You might look into buying a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet. It supports Vertcoin.

Anyhoo... Congratulations and welcome to the future.

Hi Kevin, (yet again),

Am I getting this right, buying a Ledger hardware wallet means that my currency is stored in wallets, directly on the device, and only goes online, once I plug it in to my MacBook, via the Chrome browser?

If so, your suggestion does seem to provide ultimate security, and seems a good idea.

I am very new to all of this, and the mechanics of it do seem, at first, overly complicated, but I do think the penny is finally dropping here .......... poor choice of words there! 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Not sure I follow... all I know there has been a recent significant rise in crypto purchasing and selling accounts in countries like the US and Korea, and that increase has roughly followed a significant rise in the total capitalisation value of various crypto block chains..... fresh money (fiat) has also seemed to add to the liquidity of various Cryptos whilst at the same time  increasing the valuation of many crypto block chains compared to fiat, but perhaps to your point certain crypto currency ratios have remained more aligned compared to the generally more widely varying ratios of crypto to fiat... Bitcoin and Litecoin is one such example. I guess also the supply of most crypto coins is not infinite and have a max number, and until that number is reached they have a decreasing inflation rate, ie less coins are created over time, which I guess in itself push the value if the crypto is seen as a commodity.

What I mean is that if someone buys a bitcoin for $10,000 (or whatever), someone is selling it. The seller (nor some other central repository) doesn't hold the cash in reserve on behalf of the buyer in case they want to sell it later. The capitalisation is zero, no matter the price of a crypto-currency. Its functional value will be determined by its usefulness. That value at the moment is essentially zero. The price is high, but is underpinned only be agreement. There is no significant utility in a string of bits. There may be a future where blockchain-based systems dominates the way transactions are executed, recorded and verified. These systems may be more efficient than current accounting and settlement systems and that would be useful. I don't thank that has much, if anything to do with speculation on the price of crypto, though.

Hi Dave, I am sure Kevin will answer, but a crypto wallet simply stores your private (and public) encryption key. Your ‘currency’ is stored globally on the ledger block chain, but can only be realised by decrypting your total transactions on the ledger... any body can see or read your value or send you value, but for you to send your value or currency to another key holder, ie realising or spending your currency you need to use your private key.

The hardware wallet simply stores your private  cryptographic key in a way that makes it almost impossible to gain unauthorised access .

winkyincanada posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Not sure I follow... all I know there has been a recent significant rise in crypto purchasing and selling accounts in countries like the US and Korea, and that increase has roughly followed a significant rise in the total capitalisation value of various crypto block chains..... fresh money (fiat) has also seemed to add to the liquidity of various Cryptos whilst at the same time  increasing the valuation of many crypto block chains compared to fiat, but perhaps to your point certain crypto currency ratios have remained more aligned compared to the generally more widely varying ratios of crypto to fiat... Bitcoin and Litecoin is one such example. I guess also the supply of most crypto coins is not infinite and have a max number, and until that number is reached they have a decreasing inflation rate, ie less coins are created over time, which I guess in itself push the value if the crypto is seen as a commodity.

What I mean is that if someone buys a bitcoin for $10,000 (or whatever), someone is selling it. The seller (nor some other central repository) doesn't hold the cash in reserve on behalf of the buyer in case they want to sell it later. The capitalisation is zero, no matter the price of a crypto-currency. Its functional value will be determined by its usefulness. That value at the moment is essentially zero. The price is high, but is underpinned only be agreement. There is no significant utility in a string of bits. There may be a future where blockchain-based systems dominates the way transactions are executed, recorded and verified. These systems may be more efficient than current accounting and settlement systems and that would be useful. I don't thank that has much, if anything to do with speculation on the price of crypto, though.

Ahh I see, yes clearly for crypto to fiat valuations there needs to be a buyer and seller of Cryptos using fiat... of course crypto have value against each other as well and  is increasingly common to transact that way where no fiat is used at all. The Bittrex exchange in the US works exactly this way ... purchasing, selling or otherwise trading crypto currencies using Bitcoin.

Indeed Crypto currencies are effectively a commodity or a foreign exchange currency and the price is only determined by what the market and buyers and sellers will give it.... there is no promise to provide the holder a fixed amount of fiat... unlike a fiat bank note.

Thanks Simon,

Phew, who'd have imagined it was so complicated, (or maybe that's just me)?

Initial purchases, via Coinbase were, and remain, perfectly straightforward.

My subsequent purchase of Vertcoin was quite easy, transferring, as Kevin advised, Bitcoin to Bittrex, in order to purchase Vertcoin.

My thinking was that I would then initiate an external Vertcoin wallet, and transfer my Vertcoin to it, but before I can move anything from Bittrex, I find that I now have to go through a confirmation process to upgrade my Bittrex account.

Once I've completed this process, would you also recommend, as Kevin has, the Ledger hardware wallet?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Not sure I follow... all I know there has been a recent significant rise in crypto purchasing and selling accounts in countries like the US and Korea, and that increase has roughly followed a significant rise in the total capitalisation value of various crypto block chains..... fresh money (fiat) has also seemed to add to the liquidity of various Cryptos whilst at the same time  increasing the valuation of many crypto block chains compared to fiat, but perhaps to your point certain crypto currency ratios have remained more aligned compared to the generally more widely varying ratios of crypto to fiat... Bitcoin and Litecoin is one such example. I guess also the supply of most crypto coins is not infinite and have a max number, and until that number is reached they have a decreasing inflation rate, ie less coins are created over time, which I guess in itself push the value if the crypto is seen as a commodity.

What I mean is that if someone buys a bitcoin for $10,000 (or whatever), someone is selling it. The seller (nor some other central repository) doesn't hold the cash in reserve on behalf of the buyer in case they want to sell it later. The capitalisation is zero, no matter the price of a crypto-currency. Its functional value will be determined by its usefulness. That value at the moment is essentially zero. The price is high, but is underpinned only be agreement. There is no significant utility in a string of bits. There may be a future where blockchain-based systems dominates the way transactions are executed, recorded and verified. These systems may be more efficient than current accounting and settlement systems and that would be useful. I don't thank that has much, if anything to do with speculation on the price of crypto, though.

Ahh I see, yes clearly for crypto to fiat valuations there needs to be a buyer and seller of Cryptos using fiat... of course crypto have value against each other as well and  is increasingly common to transact that way where no fiat is used at all. The Bittrex exchange in the US works exactly this way ... purchasing, selling or otherwise trading crypto currencies using Bitcoin.

Indeed Crypto currencies are effectively a commodity or a foreign exchange currency and the price is only determined by what the market and buyers and sellers will give it.... there is no promise to provide the holder a fixed amount of fiat... unlike a fiat bank note.

Thinking of crypto as foreign currencies is a useful model. For the time-being, you essentially still need to convert them to spend them. The price is the FX rate. All currencies only represent a "promise" to provide goods and services in the future. The risk attached to that promise is critical. Fiat currencies are only worth the underlying social and legal contract with the government they represent. It is essentially meaningless to say the this $100 note is worth $100. It's really only what goods and services can be exchanged for it that defines its value, and more importantly, what is the risk that those promises to trade goods and services will be enduring.

Crypto currently adds a layer on top of that contract (until direct exchange for goods and services becomes widespread), and as far as I can see that layer currently has use almost exclusively as a means of speculation, rather than as a direct means of exchange of value. Realising a price increase in a Bitcoin still requires that to be brought back to fiat currency for the vast majority of purchases.

Taking the FX analogy further, imagine Bitcoin is the currency of a foreign land. What justification might their be to price their currency at ever-increasing FX rates? Did they strike it rich? Find oil? Expand their manufacturing? Improve their trade deficit? Is their economy booming? Productivity skyrocketing? Awesome government policy? Are the inhabitants of the country able to buy more and more things for a unit of their local currency? Is their inflation rate actually lower the the 2% being experienced in the US (and most developed countries)? Is it actually at about minus 1000% that it would have to be for FX to shift like Bitcoin prices. None of this is true, of course. There is no foreign country that has Bitcoin as their currency. That the currency is "rare" and increasingly expensive to "print" can't explain it either. The favourable shifts in FX rates for holders of the currency can only be due to a growing belief that the shifts will continue. Can the belief continue to grow, and for how long? That, my friend, is the right question.

That is indeed the question, and I read today that a new shopping mall in Korea has Bitcoin tills (as well as fiat) for its stores... the world is indeed evolving... having spent my career in IT and have seen many new ideas and fads become the main stream this feels quite normal... like MP3, DVB, World Wide Web, OnDemand  services (now referred to as Cloud), speech rec, Ethernet, smart phones smtp email, online bullet in board (now referred to as social media)... all of these things were considered non main stream, nerdy, and had investment bubbles around them... and nearly all have become ubiquitous and massive wealth generators and enablersfor the masses at large changing our lives... I think the web boom of the 90s feels closest to crypto..... and right now for crypto feels like 1995 with regard to the web... and yes with the web there were early winners and losers as well... but crypto feels more universal  than the web initially was.

dave marshall posted:

Thanks Simon,

Phew, who'd have imagined it was so complicated, (or maybe that's just me)?

Initial purchases, via Coinbase were, and remain, perfectly straightforward.

My subsequent purchase of Vertcoin was quite easy, transferring, as Kevin advised, Bitcoin to Bittrex, in order to purchase Vertcoin.

My thinking was that I would then initiate an external Vertcoin wallet, and transfer my Vertcoin to it, but before I can move anything from Bittrex, I find that I now have to go through a confirmation process to upgrade my Bittrex account.

Once I've completed this process, would you also recommend, as Kevin has, the Ledger hardware wallet?

Yes the identity confirmation is a method to prevent illegal money laundering... most exchanges do this... it’s all usually very straightforward... often requiring driving licence, utility bill and or passport. I use a Trezor hardware wallet... and it contains my Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin keys. The wallet has excellent method of security and strategy to circumvent infected wallet host computers, and key recovery in case you loose your device... as well as protection strategies if the Trezor is stolen and is being brute force attacked. Not sure if Trezor supports Vertcoin however.

BTW transactions with your personal private keys is really simple, and receiving crypto is even easier... you just have people send to your public crypto address.. think of it like an email address.

winkyincanada posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Slowly slowly my investments are rising... 30% on the way to my target... certainly rollercoaster at the moment.. so you need to look at average values and if you are brave day trade ... it works but can be nerve racking unless you have the discipline to do in small amounts... and you play a law of averages game as it doesn’t always work out.

Ethereum is at new all time high of $455.

A pre fork Bitcoin is now $10,269.

And LTC is at all time high of $92 this morning.. pushing $100. There has been an explosion of new money coming into crypto over the last few weeks seemingly from many parts of the world?

Money isn't "coming in" at all in any meaningful sense. All that's happening is that people are agreeing on higher and higher valuations. Money is going out at the same rate it is coming in, as people selling take the cash and leave. There is no accumulating big pile of US dollars (or anything else) that is accumulating to justify or underpin the prices of crypto-currencies.

Some people are just chasing $ and take profits. Most Bitcoin are held by "strong handed futurists" who are convinced Bitcoin is the future and will not sell anytime soon.

Fiat also goes into the miners who need to sell some coins to keep their operation running.

Some people get paid in Bitcoin and need to convert to local fiat to pay bills.

In a few years maybe Bitcoin will reach an adoption % where such conversions are unnecessary.

The fact is the buy side demand exceeds the supply -> price appreciation.

This is all speculation on the future utility of the coin. Personally I'm 99.9% sure I will see $1,000,000 Bitcoin in my lifetime. 

Just heard a few Bitcoin predictions for next year from Michael Novogratz of Galaxy Investment Partners.

He thinks that the recently established Bitcoin futures trading market should reduce the amount of volatility. His also said that, by the end of the year, Bitcoin will look more like a currency. He thinks there will be a new lending marketplace based on Bitcoin, with its own yield curve.  His final prediction was a Bitcoin target price of $40,000.

This is the same guy who predicted $10,000 for the end of 2017 back in September.

Hook posted:

Just heard a few Bitcoin predictions for next year from Michael Novogratz of Galaxy Investment Partners.

He thinks that the recently established Bitcoin futures trading market should reduce the amount of volatility. His also said that, by the end of the year, Bitcoin will look more like a currency. He thinks there will be a new lending marketplace based on Bitcoin, with its own yield curve.  His final prediction was a Bitcoin target price of $40,000.

This is the same guy who predicted $10,000 for the end of 2017 back in September.

 

 

The contracts all settle in USD. How will these futures have any impact on BTC price  which is only traded on unregulated exchanges? I'm only interested when I can take delivery of BTC before contract expires. I just do not see how this is supposed to work.

dave marshall posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

dave marshall posted:

Many thanks for your help, Kevin.

I've now successfully set up a Bitcoin wallet on Bittrex, transferred some Bitcoin, and purchased Vertcoin with the funds.

All that's left to do is set up a Vertcoin wallet, (not as straightforward as it ought to be, I feel), and upgrade my new Bittrex account, so that I can shift the VTC into it.

Again, thanks for your assistance, with what is, for me, uncharted territory. 

You might look into buying a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet. It supports Vertcoin.

Anyhoo... Congratulations and welcome to the future.

Hi Kevin, (yet again),

Am I getting this right, buying a Ledger hardware wallet means that my currency is stored in wallets, directly on the device, and only goes online, once I plug it in to my MacBook, via the Chrome browser?

If so, your suggestion does seem to provide ultimate security, and seems a good idea.

I am very new to all of this, and the mechanics of it do seem, at first, overly complicated, but I do think the penny is finally dropping here .......... poor choice of words there! 

I don't personally use a ledger yet (I'm buying one ASAP for my VTC and NEO) The basic idea is your private key is stored on the hardware device and NEVER gets transmitted to the computer to which it is connected. All transactions are signed on the device and the signature is then sent to the computer to create the transaction.

If you are interested in a broader exposure to Cryptos  google combicoin. This is like an ETF that holds the top 30 coins by market cap. It is fairly new and I'm not invested in it but will be soon. [There is significant risk given you won't actually hold your coins only combicoin tokens which ATM are only traded via their website.]

Feel free to continue to post any questions. I am more than happy to help.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

dave marshall posted:

Thanks Simon,

Phew, who'd have imagined it was so complicated, (or maybe that's just me)?

Initial purchases, via Coinbase were, and remain, perfectly straightforward.

My subsequent purchase of Vertcoin was quite easy, transferring, as Kevin advised, Bitcoin to Bittrex, in order to purchase Vertcoin.

My thinking was that I would then initiate an external Vertcoin wallet, and transfer my Vertcoin to it, but before I can move anything from Bittrex, I find that I now have to go through a confirmation process to upgrade my Bittrex account.

Once I've completed this process, would you also recommend, as Kevin has, the Ledger hardware wallet?

Yes the identity confirmation is a method to prevent illegal money laundering... most exchanges do this... it’s all usually very straightforward... often requiring driving licence, utility bill and or passport. I use a Trezor hardware wallet... and it contains my Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin keys. The wallet has excellent method of security and strategy to circumvent infected wallet host computers, and key recovery in case you loose your device... as well as protection strategies if the Trezor is stolen and is being brute force attacked. Not sure if Trezor supports Vertcoin however.

BTW transactions with your personal private keys is really simple, and receiving crypto is even easier... you just have people send to your public crypto address.. think of it like an email address.

Have you been able to claim your "Bitcoin Gold" coins on your Trezor?