The Naits compared

This is really interesting stuff and trying to make sense of why!

I am of the camp who prefers 1 & 4. My Nait 5i-2 & speakers are very good at this.

Do you think changing to the new 5si or new XS would loose the strong dynamics and excitement I am currently getting.

I did try the XS amp with previous rega dac and dvd5 source but found highs too extended and less excitement. Of course my current source might offer a different outcome.

For me, in order of importance, the list is as follows:

4. Ability to play softly and maintain interest

1. Immediate involvement with music

3. Listening ease

2. Depth of insight into music

6. Realistic representation of scale

5. Ability to play loudly without strain

IME some of the older Naim amps had 1 and 4 but could be challenging with some recordings and sources at times so not always plenty of 3.

To be clear, 4 is nothing to do with distortion but instead to do with the ability to raise the hairs on the back of your neck at lower volumes. To play, for example, a piano piece quietly at night and clearly hear the emotion from the pianist at low volume levels.

People may want to focus on Depth of insight because it sounds like something we would want but it may also be over analytical.

In an extended comparison in controlled conditions of HC/XS to HC/72/140 the 72/140 was vastly better than the XS. No contest at all on 1 and 4 in particular. Hence I find it surprising (but of course accept) someone else's perception its second incarnation as the XS2 is perceived to be better than the SN2 on two of the criteria I would think more important. Will have to listen to the SN2 at some stage!

DR gives you lots more than 'depth of insight' in my view. I'd say it improves 4, 1 and 3 as well.

For me the ability to 'play softly and maintain interest' is about a crystalline and ethereal quality to the sound. With a touch of warmth and perhaps a slight hint of a live guitar amp feeling - just a bit of zing.

There is no audio compromise that would make the above worth giving up for me.

The XS would not be my choice for the reasons mentioned above. I also had the 282 in the same set-up. It was very good indeed and had more 'depth of insight' (as per the SN2 perhaps) making the sound more 3D and textured but could only just about match the 72 on my favoured point 4.

I like the criteria but to me the XS2 rating feels wrong.

Marky Mark, are you using a DR Hicap with your 72/140?

This is why I am struggling to understand why the lesser expensive Naits are exceeding the SN2 in (1) and (4).  I am not questioning Jan's ratings - my own experience with UnitiQute is that it does well in (1).  I would like to understand what about the sound makes it "Immediately Involving."  I agree with Jan that dynamics should be an important component; but surely the 5si is not more dynamic than the SN2!  or is it???

Cheers,

Charlie

FWIW I'd score the Nait 2 as follows:

1. Immediate involvement with music: 10

2. Depth of insight into music: 8

3. Listening ease: 7

4. Ability to play softly and maintain interest: 10

5. Ability to play loudly without strain: 7

6. Realistic representation of scale: 3

And my 202/150:

1. Immediate involvement with music: 8

2. Depth of insight into music: 8

3. Listening ease: 8

4. Ability to play softly and maintain interest: 8

5. Ability to play loudly without strain: 9

6. Realistic representation of scale: 9

So that would suggest the Nait 2 is a tad idiosyncratic. Virtually unbeatable at some things, which might explain it's almost cult following, but with other drawbacks that stop most of us from actually owning/living with one. Not to mention the annoyance of being without a remote control and the highly sensitive volume knob.

Perhaps there could be another two categories. 7. Actual ability to play REALLY loud. (Perhaps not of concern to most) 8. Annoyances/design shortcomings (or lack of). The Nait 2 would score poorly here also.

Well done, J.E.! 

There's a clear progression in all 3 new models, if I compare your results with my opinion about the 3 predecessors. The most surprising point is about your findings on point 4, where I personnaly didn't found the Nait 5 italic as involving and rich sounding at low volume level as the Supernait and XS are.

Point one is also at the opposite of my opinion on the former models, where the Supernait had a character of its own and linked me directly to the music in a way no other Naits ever did before. What didn't changed is probably that the entry-level Nait is easy to like, and for good reasons. It's fast, thrilling and fine sounding.

Bye.

I think if I had to list my priorities (from highest to lowest):

1
5/6
4
2
3

Very nice topic here, Jan. I'm enjoying hearing everyone's opinions and reading your responses. Good stuff!

Hey ! What are you doing here !?   Happy New Year then !

 

PS: I owe you a mail.

I was hoping few would notice.

Happy New Year to you.

Thinking some more about it, I'm reminded of an observation (*) on the way Naim amps treat the ASDR envelope (attack, sustain, decay, release) of a note. To my ears, Naim has always faithfully reproduced the timing of the attack, but not always controlled it ideally, i.e., perhaps overshooting the musical peak? (my experience anyway with the 42.5/110 combo) ; and possibly emphasizing the leading edge over the SDR portion of the envelope. This would provide excitement, but ultimately leave the listener to seek more insight, i.e., upgrade !

So, maybe there is a clue here for the tradeoffs as one moves up the range of the Naits. To my ears it doesn't sound like the 5si or the XS2 are exaggerating the leading edge, but perhaps they are not tracking the SDR portion as well as the SN2 ? 

(*) Malcolm Steward in his review of the NDX :

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/s...1/naim_audio_ndx.htm

I also really like the criteria for evaluation, and a very interesting discussion here...

The more sophisticated p/s regulation in the SN2 may have a lot to do with that polygon shape. There is a benefit and a price to pay for every additional component. As far as the low power vs high power Naits go - the components used in the output stages would be different, and it could be that the lower powered ones just sound better at low volumes!

Interesting observation Jan.  I need to listen to this more myself when i have the opportunity.

Thermal response?

Sure thermal response has a great impact on the transient behaviour of an amp.

Output transistors heat will change their specs. Because heat dissipation is quite slow (vs electrical signal frequency), this will interfere with the way the electrical signal is handled: kind of low frequency modulation ... but of what ?

BTW: thermal management (down to the components level) is one of the big things with the Statement.

Yes, Manu.  My thoughts exactly.  So it would be most interesting to place the Nait 5i on Jan's diagram.  Presumably the 5si Uses ceramic under the output transistors in the interest of stabilizing thermal response.

Charlie

Stories like this makes wanna buy my fourth Nait2 and makes me feel stupid because I sold them all to invest in my ex 82/2XHi/250/SBL which is only a bit louder system.

If it makes you feel any better... I'm hanging on to my 82/HiCap/250 (I also have the Supernait2, a Nait 5 and a UnitiLite). The 82/Hi/250 (now fronted by the CDX + TXPS) is not always immediately engaging (it can take a day or two to draw us in) but rewards with loads of insight and scale to die for. Then again, the 8" two-way speakers and a cathedral ceiling in the living room are certainly helping when it comes to scale. The Nait2's lesser ability on scale was mentioned further up in the thread.

Jan, glad to hear you are happy with the combo. I always felt that 82 sounded adolescentic and in your face like everythng is out of phase. Really hope you don't have problems with that.

Not any more. Replacing the 180 with the 250 pretty much took care of the "in your face" aspect. The speakers were more difficult to get right (it's a large room) so I ended up building my own. At the 5th version of the crossover things finally gelled.

'Adolescentic' - Great word!

G

..and hyperactive in a strange way  ..

Hi Jan, 

I like your approach with the diagram.  There's one factor missing for me - love!

I know its a wierd one - but I've had my Nait2 since 1992.  I was recently thinking of a head to head with a 5si - but I looked at my Nait2 sat there in its shoebox form and I thought of all the time we shared together, happy and sad.  It's wonderful sound and glowing olive lights...  the speakers that have come and gone, the people who have been entranced listening to their favourite music as though it was the first time.  I know silly.

Ok its a daft post - but I think some of us do get attached to these things!  When we really like our kit we'll forgive its shortcomings and sing its praises!

Hi mNait,

Not so daft. We listen to music for its effects, be they emotions or altered states. It's completely normal to become attached to equipment that excels at altering our mental state in a desirable way. (insert appropriate witticism here).

Speaking of desired mental states, at the moment, the Nait 5si is magnificently conveying Jakob Lindberg's thoughtful playing of John Dowland's tribute to slowness The Complete Solo Lute Music (all 4 CDs !). This music is truly remarkable in its ability to slow down the thought process. Well, it's working for me anyway, so kudos to the 5si, once again.

Jan