I don’t get it.

feeling_zen posted:

The old ND5xs also listed a 555PS as an upgrade path. Doesn't mean you should.

In any case, the only thing that matters is that people are happy with it, and they clearly are.

I also think the point the OP was making has been lost. Yes, people are adding high end power supplies and power amps to things like a 272 or a Uniti (power amp only) and it is readily accepted. But talk about adding a 300 onto a 202 or 555ps onto an NDX and you get far more comments about that being a waste of a 300 or 555ps than you get agreement on the virtues. There is a bit of a double standard going on in perception. Heck, you get a fair new naysayers if you talk about partnering a 300 with a 282 ("oohh Mavis, the 300 really needs at least a 252! Another cuppa?") .

The OP's observation about this duality is spot on.

Yes, but with the reservation that they state:
"I can’t really comment as I haven’t heard many of the combinations"
and
"I was using the search facility and so much is said about how great a balanced system performs. You can’t tell me this is a balanced system!"
which rather defeats their argument.

In respect of the difference between a 555DR on an NDX and a 555DR on a 272, it should be remembered that in the case of the 272 it makes more relative difference (compared to bare or an XPS DR) as it upgrades the performance of both the streamer AND the preamp.

So, comparing apples and pears without biting into them.

feeling_zen posted:

The old ND5xs also listed a 555PS as an upgrade path. Doesn't mean you should.

In any case, the only thing that matters is that people are happy with it, and they clearly are.

I also think the point the OP was making has been lost. Yes, people are adding high end power supplies and power amps to things like a 272 or a Uniti (power amp only) and it is readily accepted. But talk about adding a 300 onto a 202 or 555ps onto an NDX and you get far more comments about that being a waste of a 300 or 555ps than you get agreement on the virtues. There is a bit of a double standard going on in perception. Heck, you get a fair new naysayers if you talk about partnering a 300 with a 282 ("oohh Mavis, the 300 really needs at least a 252! Another cuppa?") .

The OP's observation about this duality is spot on.

Good to see that someone else sees what I see! Ha

Huge posted:

feeling_zen posted:

The old ND5xs also listed a 555PS as an upgrade path. Doesn't mean you should.

In any case, the only thing that matters is that people are happy with it, and they clearly are.

I also think the point the OP was making has been lost. Yes, people are adding high end power supplies and power amps to things like a 272 or a Uniti (power amp only) and it is readily accepted. But talk about adding a 300 onto a 202 or 555ps onto an NDX and you get far more comments about that being a waste of a 300 or 555ps than you get agreement on the virtues. There is a bit of a double standard going on in perception. Heck, you get a fair new naysayers if you talk about partnering a 300 with a 282 ("oohh Mavis, the 300 really needs at least a 252! Another cuppa?") .

The OP's observation about this duality is spot on.

Yes, but with the reservation that they state:
"I can’t really comment as I haven’t heard many of the combinations"
and
"I was using the search facility and so much is said about how great a balanced system performs. You can’t tell me this is a balanced system!"
which rather defeats their argument.

In respect of the difference between a 555DR on an NDX and a 555DR on a 272, it should be remembered that in the case of the 272 it makes more relative difference (compared to bare or an XPS DR) as it upgrades the performance of both the streamer AND the preamp.

So, comparing apples and pears without biting into them.

Because my argument was not about if it sounds good and works, it was about the thread after thread over the years about a balanced system and the endless hypocritical comments of advice given that people don’t adhere to themselves. 

“I don’t get it”

and I did say my system is just ONE example. 

Hi Popeye,

I think we may have different viewpoints when we're talking of the term 'Balance'.

To me, the term balance isn't so much about cost, it's about choosing components with complementary sonic characteristics.

The only time cost really comes into it is that lower priced components are often significantly more limited in their capability in one (or sometimes more) specific area of sonic performance, and if then paired with substantially more expensive equipment, this limitation of a single characteristic can become the limiting factor of the whole system.  The resulting system can then be characterised by that one major sonic flaw; this is when I would consider a system to be unbalanced.

On the other hand, take the example of an inexpensive speaker whose major sonic compromise is a lack of control at the frequency extremes, but otherwise meets a listeners preferences.  If that person then uses a far more expensive power amp to achieve the better control that's needed, the system could then be described as balanced even though the price points are quite different.

It also works the other way as well: someone has a difficult room and buys very controlled (and fairly expensive speakers) to achieve good interaction with the room, but then can only afford lower priced electronics.  Within their room this could still be a balanced system (whereas using cheaper speakers would greatly exacerbate the room interaction problem and unbalance the sound - and this could still occur even with more expensive amplifiers that are notionally 'price compatible' with the speakers.).

I hope this make sense.

So "source first" isn't antithetical to "balance?"  Plenty of people advocate "balance."  Plenty of people advocate "source first."  Plenty of people advocate "trust your ears."  

Sorry there is no unified theory of system building, here or anywhere else as far as I know.

Pope Eye

I can assure you the NDX (even bare) is more than good enough to work with the 300 even DR  as I have it my my system

I too started with the option of going 272 or NDX when I moved from CDX2/XPS but I had 202/200 at that time so I went NDX

One of the best 3 box combo's  is 272/555/250DR, but that was not my journey, wanted more on the pre amp side as I play i lot of vinyl on my LP12 - so for me I have at the moment NDX/282/HCDR/300 DR and I am not looking to change for me the choice is now either 555 for NDX (which I play about 10%) or add in 252/SC Which for me is the more likely route

NDX for me is a great source, did not believe the addition of XPS added a whole lot more, but the 555 took NDX on to another level of source, must add to this I don't stream only IRADIO &  UPnP with FLAC

I can see the OP's point in that, having read and contributed to this wonderful forum for quite a few years now, I too have seen a degree of inconsistent and contradictory advice. But what is wrong with that? We are all free to think and act as we please, and if we chose to write about it on here, great.

People are also free to change their minds or their views on how to build a system, with the benefit for example of properly conducted demonstrations. System choices are always 'individual' choices, often based of personal preferences and unique situations such as peculiar listening rooms, a desire to minimise box count and/or personal financial constraints.

The 272/555DR/300DR combined with posh speakers might be described as a mullet, although the addition of a 555DR might call that description into question. This system seems to work well for several on here in terms of system balance, SQ and a control of box count. That is great, but it is not the path I have chosen. My system is much more of a Monkfish, in that I have chosen to use a NDS/555DR/552/250DR combo with my rather modest MA speakers. Many would say the 552 should never be used with a 250DR. I say 'hogwash' and I have gone to the trouble of a lengthy home demo to reach my conclusion.

My next step might be to go for a ND555, thus creating the ultimate Monkfish with the most massive mouth imaginable. But I have always made my upgrade choices after very careful home demonstrations and am delighted with the outcome, which was never in question because I have taken the time and effort to try before I buy.

All I caution is that the views expressed in this place should not be used:

a) as definitive advice on how to proceed and what to buy

b) as justification or affirmation that you have taken the 'right' path or bought the 'right' system

If you live in this country and are 'confused' by any 'advice' on here and you are contemplating a purchase, you have no excuse not to listen for yourself, and dealers will even organise a home demo! If you are contemplating spending a significant sum of money and are not prepared to put in the leg work (demonstrations), then there is only one person to blame if a mistake is made or money appears to have been wasted. No need for any confusion with Naim's wonderful dealer network to help. It just takes a little effort, that's all. And why wouldn't anyone make that effort when spending thousands of pounds!

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this post are for information only and should not be used as justification for the purchase of any HiFi component/system. Caveat emptor!

I get it entirely.   Source first, at least as an absolute, has always been mis-guided.  

I’ve said before and will again synergy right through to speaker/room interface is the key to musical satisfaction.   I happened to think, having heard the comparison, that a NDX/SN2 is musically more coherent than a 272/250 with a less demanding speaker.   But the latter will happily drive say Neat XL10s where the former will be perhaps less than comfortable so there are lots of variables. 

To get it, you must know what ‘it’ is. What is ‘it’?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I get it entirely.   Source first, at least as an absolute, has always been mis-guided.  

I’ve said before and will again synergy right through to speaker/room interface is the key to musical satisfaction.   I happened to think, having heard the comparison, that a NDX/SN2 is musically more coherent than a 272/250 with a less demanding speaker.   But the latter will happily drive say Neat XL10s where the former will be perhaps less than comfortable so there are lots of variables. 

Lindsay, a 250DR will also drive the Kudos 505s or 606s beautifully with wonderful synergy…...know what I mean.

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I get it entirely.   Source first, at least as an absolute, has always been mis-guided.  

I’ve said before and will again synergy right through to speaker/room interface is the key to musical satisfaction.   I happened to think, having heard the comparison, that a NDX/SN2 is musically more coherent than a 272/250 with a less demanding speaker.   But the latter will happily drive say Neat XL10s where the former will be perhaps less than comfortable so there are lots of variables. 

Lindsay, a 250DR will also drive the Kudos 505s or 606s beautifully with wonderful synergy…...know what I mean.

Nigel - the 250DR will drive the 808s - know what I mean????

nigelb posted:

I can see the OP's point in that, having read and contributed to this wonderful forum for quite a few years now, I too have seen a degree of inconsistent and contradictory advice. But what is wrong with that? We are all free to think and act as we please, and if we chose to write about it on here, great.

People are also free to change their minds or their views on how to build a system, with the benefit for example of properly conducted demonstrations. System choices are always 'individual' choices, often based of personal preferences and unique situations such as peculiar listening rooms, a desire to minimise box count and/or personal financial constraints.

The 272/555DR/300DR combined with posh speakers might be described as a mullet, although the addition of a 555DR might call that description into question. This system seems to work well for several on here in terms of system balance, SQ and a control of box count. That is great, but it is not the path I have chosen. My system is much more of a Monkfish, in that I have chosen to use a NDS/555DR/552/250DR combo with my rather modest MA speakers. Many would say the 552 should never be used with a 250DR. I say 'hogwash' and I have gone to the trouble of a lengthy home demo to reach my conclusion.

My next step might be to go for a ND555, thus creating the ultimate Monkfish with the most massive mouth imaginable. But I have always made my upgrade choices after very careful home demonstrations and am delighted with the outcome, which was never in question because I have taken the time and effort to try before I buy.

All I caution is that the views expressed in this place should not be used:

a) as definitive advice on how to proceed and what to buy

b) as justification or affirmation that you have taken the 'right' path or bought the 'right' system

If you live in this country and are 'confused' by any 'advice' on here and you are contemplating a purchase, you have no excuse not to listen for yourself, and dealers will even organise a home demo! If you are contemplating spending a significant sum of money and are not prepared to put in the leg work (demonstrations), then there is only one person to blame if a mistake is made or money appears to have been wasted. No need for any confusion with Naim's wonderful dealer network to help. It just takes a little effort, that's all. And why wouldn't anyone make that effort when spending thousands of pounds!

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this post are for information only and should not be used as justification for the purchase of any HiFi component/system. Caveat emptor!

I would throw in the NAP300 demo in your next home demo with an ND555, might save you a packet again and those speakers will grow in size and ability to deliver the music. Just too many nice things to listen to....happy days.

It’s great to see so many people propping up the flagging economy. Are you all made of money?!

hungryhalibut posted:

It’s great to see so many people propping up the flagging economy. Are you all made of money?!

Or is it that the money (and music systems) of the rich tire the lips of the poor?  A Turkish saying.

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I get it entirely.   Source first, at least as an absolute, has always been mis-guided.  

I’ve said before and will again synergy right through to speaker/room interface is the key to musical satisfaction.   I happened to think, having heard the comparison, that a NDX/SN2 is musically more coherent than a 272/250 with a less demanding speaker.   But the latter will happily drive say Neat XL10s where the former will be perhaps less than comfortable so there are lots of variables. 

Lindsay, a 250DR will also drive the Kudos 505s or 606s beautifully with wonderful synergy…...know what I mean.

Nigel - the 250DR will drive the 808s - know what I mean????

Touche!

hungryhalibut posted:

It’s great to see so many people propping up the flagging economy. Are you all made of money?!

Not sure, should one find some disposable income, advice on how to spend it from others is appropriate. Let's keep the advice to black boxes and wires.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

Simon in the S is using this combo, with atc 19 ( if i remember well).

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

I am – elderly 552 non-DR with 250DR. I can't comment on how the 250 stands relative to the 300 or the 500, as I've never heard either with a 552, but I don't have a sense that the 250 is a bottleneck in my (admittedly) extreme monkfish system.

Corry posted:

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

I am – elderly 552 non-DR with 250DR. I can't comment on how the 250 stands relative to the 300 or the 500, as I've never heard either with a 552, but I don't have a sense that the 250 is a bottleneck in my (admittedly) extreme monkfish system.

It doesn't hurt that the 250 in all guises is one of the best value for money power amps out there. 

feeling_zen posted:

Corry posted:

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

I am – elderly 552 non-DR with 250DR. I can't comment on how the 250 stands relative to the 300 or the 500, as I've never heard either with a 552, but I don't have a sense that the 250 is a bottleneck in my (admittedly) extreme monkfish system.

It doesn't hurt that the 250 in all guises is one of the best value for money power amps out there. 

Agreed, I am staggered at the ultimate capability of the 250DR. Yes, it does run out of puff when things get loud and complex, but for the vast majority of listening it appears to be faithfully amplifying all the additional information the 552 feeds it. Of course I would need to do a A/B comparison between it and a 300 or 500 to understand what is lacking, but at the moment I am delighted with how the 250DR is performing.

nigelb posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Corry posted:

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Nigel - who would say a 552 shouldn’t be paired with a 250?

Well no one as such. But I assume if you can be ar*ed to look back on here, being the most revered 500 series component, the received wisdom is that a 552 deserves a 300 or a 500 as its partner.

I could of course be starting a new trend. Well, me and my compadres Richard Dane (I think) and Simon In Suffolk, anyway.

At the risk of diverting this interesting thread any further, is anyone else using a 552 with a 250?

I am – elderly 552 non-DR with 250DR. I can't comment on how the 250 stands relative to the 300 or the 500, as I've never heard either with a 552, but I don't have a sense that the 250 is a bottleneck in my (admittedly) extreme monkfish system.

It doesn't hurt that the 250 in all guises is one of the best value for money power amps out there. 

Agreed, I am staggered at the ultimate capability of the 250DR. Yes, it does run out of puff when things get loud and complex, but for the vast majority of listening it appears to be faithfully amplifying all the additional information the 552 feeds it. Of course I would need to do a A/B comparison between it and a 300 or 500 to understand what is lacking, but at the moment I am delighted with how the 250DR is performing.

And it has the advantage of being but one box.  My 250DR clearly has enough oomph in total to drive my current and next speakers . . . but I'm likely going to grab a 300DR gently used and will be curious to hear what it brings to moderate listening levels. (Zero chance to audition, but buying used I feel ok about it. I cannot imagine thinking it moves things the WRONG way.)

I understand your inability to demo but you are in very safe territory moving from a 250DR to a 300DR with your ND555/252.

If you make the move would be interested to hear what you......err.....hear.

That’s exactly my system and it sounds wonderful. The NAP300 will make your speakers come alive. On paper it’s only marginally more powerful than the 250, but in practice it will make your speakers seem twice as large.