NDX and Chord Hugo

Posted by: Foxman50 on 18 April 2014

I have been contemplating adding a DAC to my NDX/XPS2 to see (or should that be hear) what it can bring to the party. And so thought it about time i made inroads into Having a few home demos. After looking around at products that are within my budget i came across the Chord Hugo DAC.

 

Although it is meant to be a portable headphone unit, it can be used as a full line level fixed DAC.

 

The dealer lent me a TQ black digital coax lead, which have twist grip plugs. This was required as the present batch of Hugo's have a case design fault that wont allow any decent cable to fit, soon to be rectified. Thankfully the TQ just manages to hang on to the coax port.

 

Once all connected and gone through the minimal setup procedure of the Hugo, what does the red LED mean again, i left it to warm up for half an hour.

 

Poured a beer and sat down for an evenings listening.

 

What was that, where did that come from, that's what that instrument is. OMG, as my little'n would say, Where is it getting all this detail from.

 

After spending last night and today with it, all i can say is that it has totally transformed my system from top to bottom. I never considered my NDX to be veiled or shut in, not even sure that's the correct terms. All i can say is its opened up the sound stage and space around instruments. Everything I've put through it has had my toes, feet and legs tapping away to the music.

 

Even putting the toe tapping, the resolution the clarity to one side, what its greatest achievement for me has been in making albums that I've had trouble listening too enjoyable now.

 

One added bonus is that it has made the XPS redundant. I cannot hear any difference with it in or out of the system.

 

While i thought a DAC may make a change in the degree of the jump from ND5 to NDX, i was not prepared for this. Anyone looking at adding a PSU to there NDX may want to check this unit out first.

 

For me this has to be the bargain of the year.

 

Posted on: 14 June 2014 by Aleg

Setting up DSD over PCM with Foobar

http://www.audiostream.com/con...ile-using-foobar2000

choose option DOP and not native DSD

 

Setting up DSD over PCM with JRiver

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

Posted on: 14 June 2014 by Hmack

Thanks again for your help,

 

It would have taken me ages to figure out how to configure JRiver properly, but having followed your guidelines, I'm now able to play the DSD files correctly - The magical 'white' light is displayed on my Hugo, and the couple of tracks I've played so far sound stunning!  The noise from my laptop has gone as well - maybe I hadn't seated the USB connections properly (not sure if that could have had this effect?)

 

My only problem now is that transcoding standard FLAC files to DSD in JRiver doesn't work - I get a very garbled sound with loads of unwanted digital artefacts, so I've switched off the 'Output Encoding to DSD' option.  Any ideas.

 

Anyway, thanks again - the World Cup beckons, so I think I'll leave any further tweaking until tomorrow.

Posted on: 14 June 2014 by likesmusic

I'm following the footie too .. will check JRiver settings tomorrow and get back to you. Glad you've made progress! 

Posted on: 14 June 2014 by GraemeH

What footie?

 

G

Posted on: 15 June 2014 by likesmusic

Hmack .. a couple of things to check for 

 

In Audio Options > Volume you probably want Volume mode: Disabled Volume

In Audio Options > Device Settings you probably want to check "Open Device for exclusive access"

(if your DAC is using WASAPI)

 

There's a "Play files from memory.." option in settings you might want to use if you are worried about noise from your disc.

 

What does your Audio Path show when you are getting the garbled FLAC -> DSD?

 

Pity about the football.

 

Posted on: 15 June 2014 by Hmack

Hi Likesmusic,

 

I have just spotted that there are 2 options available to me in the 'Devices' dropdown:

ASIO Chord Hugo 1.3 (ASIO) - this is the option I had been selecting 

and

Digital output (Chord Async USB 44.1KHz - 384 KHz) [WASAPI]

 

Any idea which of these I should ideally be using?

 

When I choose the WASAPI option and DSD Encoding enabled, both FLACS (of various resolutions) and DSD  (DSF or DFF) files display correctly on the Hugo as DSD (White display)

 

However, when I look at the audio path I see that:

"Input source 352.8KHz 64 bit DSF"

"Output DoP 2.8MHz 1 bit using WASAPI (not using enough bits to output the input directly"   

 

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not (the Hugo appears to think everything is ok and the sound quality appears to be very good indeed)

 

When I use the ASIO option, and choose encoding, the DSD result is the same but FLAC garbled and unplayable.

When I use the ASIO option without encoding, FLAC files behave exactly as expected on the Hugo, but DSD files are played on the Hugo with a light blue display (176 KHz), and the audio path displays:

 

"Input source 352.8KHz 64 bit DSF"

  "Resolve from 352.8KHz to 176.4 KHz"

"Output 176.4 32 bit using ASIO (not using enough bits to output the input directly"

 

All very, very confusing. I'm away now for a stiff drink to recover!

 

Does any of the above make any sense, and any more recommendations?

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Posted on: 15 June 2014 by likesmusic

Hmack .. 

 

JRiver say that if you have  a well behaved ASIO driver it is to be preferred, otherwise use WASAPI but ASIO seems to give you problems transcoding. Not sure why it is garbled - I can play direct or transcoded using either ASIO or WASAPI to my Benchmark DAC2 HGC, but that's a fat lot of use to you.  As I'm without a Hugo I'm sorry I can't help much more, so can I suggest you post your problems on the JRiver forum? 

 

They are generally pretty quick to respond - often a developer will answer within an hour or two.

 

And there seems to be a fair few folk using Hugos on the headfi forum and at least some of them must be using JRiver, so a post there probably wouldn't go amiss. Also the Hugos designer posts there, so you might even get an answer from the horses mouth.

 

Until you get transcoding on the fly working, you could use JRiver to convert PCM to DSD and then just play the DSD. 

Posted on: 15 June 2014 by Foxman50

Hmack

 

ive had similar issues to yourself with transcoding on the fly but ive put this down to the laptop i used not being powerful enough.

 

It seems very CPU intensive. Just a thought

 

Graeme

Posted on: 15 June 2014 by likesmusic

I've a fairly modest laptop and transcoding on the fly knocks the CPU load up to about 11%. Enough to bring the fan on, irritatingly. Somewhere in the JRiver menu system theres an option to calculate the JRMark score which is JRivers measure of your machines power. 

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by Shanks
It's perfectly normal
 
 
Originally Posted by Kevin Richardson:

Problem with my Hugo……  While listening to Hendrix's "Are You Experienced", I suddenly wanted to get really stoned.  Is this normal or should I call my dealer?

 

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by lovethatsound
Have any of you guys played chrissie hynde new cd stockholm it sounds fantastic though the hugo.
Posted on: 16 June 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by lovethatsound:
Have any of you guys played chrissie hynde new cd stockholm it sounds fantastic though the hugo.

Waiting for it to turn up. was hoping it would be good 

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by robert-

It's all about the DC.

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by robert-:

It's all about the DC.

DC?

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by Kevin Richardson

My Hugo has turned into a love-hate relationship.  It sounds great but I am experiencing intermittent  drop outs while transcoding --> DSD from JRiver.  It happens both from my iMac where the music files live and my MacBook Pro [via WiFi].  Both computers are < 1 year old and well appointed in terms of memory, processor and ssd drives.  Have any of you experienced this problem?

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by Kevin Richardson:

My Hugo has turned into a love-hate relationship.  It sounds great but I am experiencing intermittent  drop outs while transcoding --> DSD from JRiver.  It happens both from my iMac where the music files live and my MacBook Pro [via WiFi].  Both computers are < 1 year old and well appointed in terms of memory, processor and ssd drives.  Have any of you experienced this problem?

Kevin

 

if you convert them to DSD first then play them do you still get drop outs. Im interested as i was thinking of doing what you are but i want to wait till new mac mini is out

 

Graeme

Posted on: 16 June 2014 by cat345

Why transcode original PCM files into DSD? The only thing it can do is loss of resolution.

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by likesmusic
Originally Posted by Kevin Richardson:

My Hugo has turned into a love-hate relationship.  It sounds great but I am experiencing intermittent  drop outs while transcoding --> DSD from JRiver.  It happens both from my iMac where the music files live and my MacBook Pro [via WiFi].  Both computers are < 1 year old and well appointed in terms of memory, processor and ssd drives.  Have any of you experienced this problem?

I had similar problems which I fixed by fiddling with the buffer sizes in JRiver and the ASIO driver, and the power management settings of my pc.

 

The JRiver bit:

Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings > Open Driver Control Panel > Buffer Settings: Extra Safe, 8192 Samples.

 

You might also want to try  Audio > Settings > Play files from memory on the presumption that this will cut down processor activity while JRiver is playing. I don't use it. 

 

The Windows bit

Power Options

 Advanced Settings

  USB Selective Suspend setting

   Plugged in: Disabled.

 Processor Power Management

  Minimum Processor State

   Plugged in: 100%

  System Cooling Policy

   Plugged in: Active

  Maximum Processor State

   Plugged in: 100%

PCI Express

  Link State Power Management

   Plugged in: Off

Wireless Adaptor Settings

  Plugged in: Maximum Performance

 

I can't be sure that all of these settings are necessary - once drop-outs become quite intermittent it's hard proving the effect of any changes - but maybe a good place to start.

 

Would be worth running the JRiver JRMark (Help > Benchmark) - mine is 1153 - and ask on the JRiver forum if this is enough.

 

I suppose I'd also say that I'm not really sure why, apart from curiosity, you want to transcode PCM to DSD for the Hugo - doesn't the Hugo transcode DSD to PCM anyway? 

 

I suppos these problems do show what a poor interface USB is though - little packets of information every microsecond-ish, with no guarantee of timely delivery and an easily distracted operating system. 

 

hth

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by likesmusic:
Originally Posted by Kevin Richardson:

My Hugo has turned into a love-hate relationship.  It sounds great but I am experiencing intermittent  drop outs while transcoding --> DSD from JRiver.  It happens both from my iMac where the music files live and my MacBook Pro [via WiFi].  Both computers are < 1 year old and well appointed in terms of memory, processor and ssd drives.  Have any of you experienced this problem?

I had similar problems which I fixed by fiddling with the buffer sizes in JRiver and the ASIO driver, and the power management settings of my pc.

 

The JRiver bit:

Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings > Open Driver Control Panel > Buffer Settings: Extra Safe, 8192 Samples.

 

You might also want to try  Audio > Settings > Play files from memory on the presumption that this will cut down processor activity while JRiver is playing. I don't use it. 

 

The Windows bit

Power Options

 Advanced Settings

  USB Selective Suspend setting

   Plugged in: Disabled.

 Processor Power Management

  Minimum Processor State

   Plugged in: 100%

  System Cooling Policy

   Plugged in: Active

  Maximum Processor State

   Plugged in: 100%

PCI Express

  Link State Power Management

   Plugged in: Off

Wireless Adaptor Settings

  Plugged in: Maximum Performance

 

I can't be sure that all of these settings are necessary - once drop-outs become quite intermittent it's hard proving the effect of any changes - but maybe a good place to start.

 

Would be worth running the JRiver JRMark (Help > Benchmark) - mine is 1153 - and ask on the JRiver forum if this is enough.

 

I suppose I'd also say that I'm not really sure why, apart from curiosity, you want to transcode PCM to DSD for the Hugo - doesn't the Hugo transcode DSD to PCM anyway? 

 

I suppos these problems do show what a poor interface USB is though - little packets of information every microsecond-ish, with no guarantee of timely delivery and an easily distracted operating system. 

 

hth

Interesting point about PCM <-> DSD is that something like 97% of all recordings are to PCM which is then converted to DSD.  Check in at iTrax and see what they think of DSD and they re a recording studio after all.  I can't see why there would be any loss of resolution (PCM --> DSD) because they are both digital systems, unless the resolution is deliberately lowered going PCM --> DSD - which would happen if the conversion was to SACD from a high res PCM.  But why should there be a loss going DSD --> PCM on a 24bit PCM player?

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Marky Mark
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Interesting point about PCM <-> DSD is that something like 97% of all recordings are to PCM which is then converted to DSD.

Quite.

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Marky Mark

If I have 44,000 samples per second from a CD, what does the Hugo actually offer that a current DAC cannot offer?

 

Talk of perfectly re-creating the original analogue waveform seems to be rubbish as you cannot recreate what you don't have in the first place.

 

Without interpolation a line drawn between these 44,000 samples will be smooth (as per the analogue waveform) anyway. Think about it or draw a graph. 44,000 per second. If I were to play 44,000 notes in a second could you hear what number 32,168 sounds like in contrast to number 32,169?

 

With even basic interpolation the waveform produced will be even more indistinguishable from an analogue waveform and a more than adequate approximation of the original one given the digital file. Any unwanted frequencies filtered.

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:

If I have 44,000 samples per second from a CD, what does the Hugo actually offer that a current DAC cannot offer?

 

Talk of perfectly re-creating the original analogue waveform seems to be rubbish as you cannot recreate what you don't have in the first place.

 

Without interpolation a line drawn between these 44,000 samples will be smooth (as per the analogue waveform) anyway. Think about it or draw a graph. 44,000 per second. If I were to play 44,000 notes in a second could you hear what number 32,168 sounds like in contrast to number 32,169?

 

With even basic interpolation the waveform produced will be even more indistinguishable from an analogue waveform and a more than adequate approximation of the original one given the digital file. Any unwanted frequencies filtered.

If you think of the frequency being the x-axis (horizontal axis) and the word size being the y-axis (vertical axis) then we have quantisation errors in the x-axis as you describe but we also get quantisation errors in the y-axis.  For me 24bit recordings sound so much better than 16bit ones, irregardless  of the sampling frequency but it does seem to be very good at 24/96!  I think word-length quantisation errors are more damaging to the sound quality than those due to limited sampling frequency.  Remember that a 16 bit recording is only 16bit at 0db, assuming the recording actually used all the bits for the mastering.  If we are -6db then we are at 15bit recording, -12db at 14bit etc.  Look at music file in Audacity and see how often output levels are below -12db.

 

I am too old to count the number of "hugo-products" there have been in the past.  Yes I suspect that at some time in the future I will give it a spin.  But  for now, if I want to listen to the best reproduction I play 180g vinyl pressing on my fab TT, can the Hugo play these?

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Foxman50

Has anyone done any comparisons between 16bit and 24bit playback on Hugo of the same tracks. I have to say with a well recorded ripped CD, the playback is as good as i could want.

 

Without Hugo you could tell a 24bit hi res album, but reading these last few posts i realise that its now something i've not noticed.

 

Oh well something to test at the weekend.

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Wat:

Try the Blue Coast Music site, it has the same song for free download in various formats. 

IMHO, the double DSD sounds best, but you knew I would say that. 

I did Wat and if you think they do then your opinion is the only one that is important!  Just throw on some more Grateful Dead and get up there.

Posted on: 17 June 2014 by Hmack

The sample DSD files I have downloaded from the Blue Coast Music site sound absolutely wonderful through the Hugo (using JRiver).

 

My only regret is the cost of DSD music on this site - mostly $40 or $50. Just a bit too much for my liking. I think I will be vey selective in my purchase of DSD albums in future unless the price comes down.