NDX and Chord Hugo

So already some sample variation has been found with the Hugo. This should be no surprise. 

Sample variation somewhat affects all electronics. Indeed anything manufactured or even grown on the land.

A previously famous DAC that displayed significant sample variation was the Lavry, which itself sparked a lot of discussion here on the Forum. Not mentioned these days though.

I assume that my DAC V1 must be a good one, but I have never had a Naim piece that was not a good one!

ATB from George

The Lavry! Yes, never a mention nowadays. Think Julian Vereker conceded sample variation was significant with some of the older pre-amps. However, it is my understanding Naim have tightened consistency of tolerances up a lot. Lets face it, no-one would buy the business if the product was not replicable and consistent. Presumably they have the scale and resources to address this. Certainly factory tour reports suggest they do.

Going along with the 4 microsecond thing just for a moment. If there was a 4 microsecond timing effect I could hear in an analogue master, it has already been lost in the transfer to digital with its 22 microsecond timed 44,000 samples on CD anyway.

I can interpolate between samples, but I cannot restore what is not there in the first place. If I fit a smooth line between two 22 microsecond spaced samples I will not by some miracle identify an important nuance at 4 microseconds intervals which previously existed in the analogue master. How can I?

Creation of more samples or infinite samples cannot do this either. You can only guesstimate whether a sound started at 2, 6, 10, 14 or 18 microseconds after the last sample. You don't have the analogue master which is the only place where this information resides - if it were agreed to be needed.

Marky Mark.

finally some logic.

that's my issue with flavour of the month dac like these Hugo or whatever they are called.

They cannot hope to restore what was lost in the first place.

That's why I use a combination of software DSP and a Naim DAC V1 that gets me closer to the intended recording, and I'm happy enough to not want any Hugo, and while I really would like to buy a Naim NDS and a NAC 552 for it's musical qualities, I am very much enjoying music with what I have at the moment.

I think the V1 was a flavor-of-the-month dac last year.

Hit a cymbal.

Or a snare

or a drum.

Exactly what changes will happen to the sound within a 4 micro second timespan?

It took you about 7 million micro seconds to read this sentence, this post, by the way.

you can buy 35 statements with that much time if you got a dollar for every one of those microseconds.

While you're at it, also try the NAD 3020D. It's just $499. USB, Bluetooth, optical and analog inputs and drivers my Rega RS1 speakers with ease.

What's best - it even takes a month to break in, just like NAIM.

Still running beautifully now!

MM, I have looked at this 4μS thing and looked at the various references... I suspect we might be talking about it out of context.. It appears nothing with the timing or decay of a sound or even frequency response.. It's all about the process within our brains for spatial positioning of sound, and the ability to differentiate between our ears...  so as to detect the sound location.. I suspect an evolutionary trait that existed before speech.. and the brain apparently can differentiate the relative timing or phase difference between our ears down to 4μS.

Now the fun supposition part, perhaps its this ability in part of our brains in the world of hifi that allows us to enjoy two channel stereo and largely filter out the effect of room reflections so the sound comes front in front of us and not ricocheting  from the side or behind us in terms of positionIng..

Spooky, I have just seen Mr Watts has said effectively the same thing (but not on my supposition) on the other channel.

I really do only have one forum login identity .. Honest

Simon

Now you've done it.  Good ones and not so good ones. This will spin people out.

Hey - this really does blow my mind! My Hugo sounds absolutely sublime, and it may not even be a "good" one. Just think how much better a "good" one would sound compared to its rivals if I had been lucky enough to get one.

I don't have an electronics engineering degree (my major was in Maths) so I'm certainly not qualified to take part in the technical design debates that have appeared in this thread. As has been said by some others, I simply listened to the device I am now using because there was a possibility it might offer me a worthwhile upgrade at a (relatively speaking) bargain price. I cannot afford, or would not be prepared to spend the money it would take to move to an NDS/555 or Kilimax/D1. Because of this, I have not had a demo of the Naim combo. I have heard the DS/1 simply because a friend has one.

There is absolutely no evidence of an agenda here (at least not in my view), but of course many people love a good 'conspiracy' theory. In my case, I purchased a Naim component that I still use (albeit simply as a streaming device nowadays) and like, and so joined the Naim forum to get some useful and valuable advice about the item. Very simple and boring - but that's the way it was, and is.

Although I do not have an electronics degree, I have however studied 'logic' and 'psychology', and some of the contributions on this (and another forum - "TP DAC vs Naim DAC" (which also seems to have been removed by the moderator)) are extremely illuminating.

I won't name names (no pun intended) but I might just collate a few of these for a psychological evaluation.

Fascinating! - and almost as interesting as the main topic itself 

To be honest you make a good point. And maybe some of us are going on a bit too much about it. But i do believe we do this for good reason, and that is because some of us have been astounded by what it can do and want to share that with other supposed like minded soles on here. To me it seems that some want to reject it because it doesn't have a certain badge on the front, and this i really cant understand.

For my part there is no motive other than sharing my thoughts, i cant comment for others. All i can say is have a demo then post your thoughts. If your in the market for a cheap DAC what have you got to lose by trying it out.

Graeme

Hmack

couldn't agree more

Graeme, surely you don't need to defend yourself. This is a hobby not a religion.. if you are enthused then enthuse.. If people are bored of you they won't read your posts and ignore you.. Simple....but I suspect most will read them.

Simon

Simon

Its quite funny really, i can only compare this with my daughter.

she will refuse to try some food because she gets it in her head that she wont like it. No matter how much ill sit there saying just try it you may like it, but if you don't try you wont know. Very frustrating when your just tying to help. 

The main difference is she was 8.

Maybe that says it all

Graeme

 Best post on this thread.

The PS Audio DirectStream DAC is arriving on Monday evening for home demo and I should have the Hugo for demo by the end of the week.  

Steve

I can confirm this and that Simon is incredibly handsome, magnetically virile and highly intelligent.

I agree with everything he writes.

I attach a photo of myself to prove our distinct identities and put to rest, for ever, these calumnies.

Yet more proof - I don't use 'smilies'.

But I agree, of course, with his post.

I asked Rob Watts on the head-fi forum (chord hugo thread) a couple of hours ago about the 4 micro seconds and he was generous enough with his time to post a comprehensive reply in which he says that the timing he is talking about is the inter-aural delay as you say above. Well worth reading his explanation in full. Fascinating stuff.

Simon,

Your last paragraph refers to the precedence effect, first described in 1949, in which the human brain determines the location of a sound source by the first arriving sound, despite the presence of a reflected sound from a different direction. The brain hears the reflected sound but ignores it in determining location. The effect breaks down when the lag time exceeds about 40 ms.

It is this ability to ignore the reflected sound that allows us to hear a stereo image from two speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect

Kunchur (and other's) work is aimed at identifying the minimal time and phase differences that the brain can detect and at understanding the underlying biological processes.

Kunchur is also an audiophile.

http://www.ee.sc.edu/classes/S..._Kunchur_lecture.pdf

Jan

And for the avoidance of doubt to stop the rumours and conspiracy theories I though I better post an image of my true self..

Hi John

Thank you for putting the question to Rob Watts and for posting a reference to his reply.

That answer should clear up some confusion on the why question of high sample rates and the importance of timing.

Cheers

Aleg

Jan, thanks.. My thinking is that one needs to determine something so as to be able to ignore it.. as distinct from filtering... anyway only a Saturday morning musing...

Cheers

Simon

Nope a group of people in Southampton I believe, got their words mixed up and attacked the house of a paediatrician thinking that the word meant he was a a paedo!  Can't remember how injured he was but I seem to remember they bunt his house down.