SuperLine Loading Thread.

OK, now this is getting interesting.

I have just made up a 150R plug to try with the stock 5.6nF for my Akiva. The 150+5.6 combination is a lot better than the 220+5.6 I tried earlier in the week.

To do this experiment I wrecked an old cheap DIN lead. I now know I need to get a Preh plug and get someone who is good at soldering to make up a pukka plug to do a more conclusive A/B.

J

Interesting Julian, keep at it.

If you send me a couple of matched resistors, I'll make a plug up on my return from Oslo on Wednesday.

Kind regards,

Peter

Julian,

That's interesting!

I quickly tried a 220R/5.6 and it is slower than a higher loading but it's not bad. :x

It's less bright and might be a tad *grey* but no particular frequency sticking out like a 560/1nf loading. The latter is fast but comparatively a needle-like treble is annoying over a long period.
Also, the bass heft is too much at times with this loading. ( my earlier niggles still stand )

It might be good if I were running a 500 series gear but within my system context, *linto*-like sonic traits might not be a bad thing.

What was not subtle, when I switched from a Linto to a Superline, the latter adds just so much more weight and substance ( more balls).

No doubt that the SuperLine is a funkier stage than the Linto.

It's an interesting sonic contrast between two companies.

I have not done any comparisons between the two head to head as it would be a bit difficult .. but I am thinking about a keel for my LP12 or alternatively a Superline powered by a Hicap (that I happen to have available) and a HiLine.

Although I don't remember any specific mention of the cartridge that I use (or perhaps even because of that) my current inclination is to go for the keel first and wait until things sort themselves out on the Superline loading front.

Chris

Hmm, now I am a little confused about this loading lark.

I removed the cover from my 5.6nF plug. Inside it has 4.7nF capacitors fitted. As I understand it the SL has 0.1nF internal capacitance so my capacitance would be 4.8nF which is perilously close to the Lintos 4.7nF. Is this correct?

Not really sure why I have 4.7nF capacitor in my 5.6nF plug though?

Thanks for your offer Peter but I have someone who can do the soldering for me.

Julian

quote:

Hmm, now I am a little confused about this loading lark.

I removed the cover from my 5.6nF plug. Inside it has 4.7nF capacitors fitted. As I understand it the SL has 0.1nF internal capacitance so my capacitance would be 4.8nF which is perilously close to the Lintos 4.7nF. Is this correct?

Not really sure why I have 4.7nF capacitor in my 5.6nF plug though?

Spot on–this is why the 5n6 plug gets closer to the Linto's 4n7 capacitive loading than you might think!

Thanks David

So why label it 5.6nF?

Kuma

I have now tried the 150+5.6 plugs combination quite a bit over the last few days. As I have indicated previously, the actual loading with these plugs is 150+4.8 on the Superline, almost identical to the 150+4.7 loading of the Linto.

My thoughts are that it is clear, even, less forward midrange, not passionate or funky (your word!) like the 560/576+1 combos. Detailed.

I must admit I will be concentrating on the 550ish+1 loadings in the future.

If you would like to try the 150 plug please drop me a line with your address. My email is in my profile.

J

ps - David, any news on why the 4.7 plug is labelled 5.6 yet?

Not my purview.

For anyone still using a Troika, as I am, I can report that the 400 Ohm Resistive plug that Naim USA recommended for me is superb. Unlike many of the previous postings, written by people who have upgraded various aspects of their turntables all at once, I have simply replaced my prefix with a Superline. The only other change was to have my arm cables restored on the ARO. The Superline has been powered for a week now, and I am not feeding it with a dedicated supply, it simply is powered from my 252 and Supercap 2 using the Aux 2 input/output. So, when compared to some of the enthusiastic reports of users with higher end systems and budgets, I can report that it works beautifully just as it is. The ultimate measure for me of an upgrade is how much you end up listening to that component once the excitement of a new purchase is over, and this will clearly take longer, but it has restored vinyl to the best sounding source in my system, which wasn't always the case with the prefix.

The Superline is more full bodied, more nuanced, more detailed, and lets the apparently infinite resolution of vinyl shine through. I played an 80's era recording from Ahmad Jamal called Rossiter Roadwhich I have on vinyl and CD, and on CD, through my CDS 3 and 555 P/S, it was wonderfully alive, very vibrant and dynamic, and the very interesting percussion accents were very much leading the instruments in the mix. With the vinyl, it felt like a different mix, clearly the same music, but a very different perspective as the piano was restored to being the central instrument, and it was easier to sense that the songs were written for piano and then the band added in their contributions in collaboration. The vinyl had a slightly softer feel, and more of the breath of the music was conveyed, it was simply more human.

Good listening!

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Thats very interesting, are you using any capacitance? And did you have a K Prefix?

I would imagine that the Naim K loading was probably chosen based on trials with a Troika. The Prefix K being 560+1 is quite a long way from 400.

Have you tried any other loadings and what were your results?

Julian

Julian-

I did have a "K" value prefix which was updated a few years ago to the latest spec, including the black Snaic and the RF mods. I will go through more experiments on the values in my Superline, and I will report back. I am just using the 400 ohm resistance with no capacative plug in place beyond the internal value.

For now, I just wanted to offer a report which might slightly counter the impression that readers may have taken from some of the more perfectionist users that the Superline is only really a viable option for those fortunate enough to have the very finest Naim systems. I think Peter (Cymbiosis) has previously stated that he thinks that this product is, among other things, a sort of stealth reference level product that allows a far wider audience of users than will ever be able to afford to own 555's and 552's to own a Naim reference level product. I would underscore that due to the unique nature of analog replay, with well recorded music from the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, before digital recording and mastering were common, a great record playback chain has a unique set of virtues and appeals which allows for a great deal of information as well as a more relaxed, natural feel, which in my brief initial use of the Superline, this phono stage dramatically updates the Naim phono capabilities. I am not sure the previously mentioned analogy of a 252 to a 552 really captures this ground breaking product. I think this is more like replacing a 72 with a 552 for phono, which is a number of generations of development, and a great many collaborative updates in the process. The prefix was always very enjoyable, but due to it's unique, interactive nature, I never really auditioned alternatives to it, and now Naim fans can upgrade substantially with a product that allows for great flexibility in system configuration as well as the peace of mind that knowing you can choose a new cartridge without replacing your phono stage.

Bruce

Julian,

thanks for your kind offer.

I now have a 590R ( don't ask ) in possession and you know what? I much prefer this over Linto loading or 560R/1nf loading!

So, how does a *dead-on* Linto loading differs from a 220R/4.7nF ( 5.6 nF ) combo?
Does it further dumb down the music?

It's interesting to note that I thought higher the value, things will get even brighter, but it's more like a *bell* curve. Somewhere between a 560R and 590R loading, a shift occurs.

A 590R/1nF value no longer has a bright trebles nor a supersized bass as I have heard from a 560R/1nF loading. It's actually a lot better balanced to my ears.

FWIW, I switched to a Phonosophie No.3 for a change. This table is a lot more linear down below and has a spot lit trebles than my non-Cirkused Sondek. A 560R/1nF is still a bit bright on the No.3, so, 576R might be just a ticket for this table.

BTW, a SuperLine works great with a Phonosophie. Previous Akiva/Linto combo also was excellent but the SuperLine gives a better solidity to the overall presenataion. ( put more meat on the bone, sort of )

OTOH, on a Sondek, the high frequency balance seems to be pretty right on.

P.S. Troika.....

A totally different voicing from my Akiva, nonetheless, what a nice cartridge! I thought a 400R loading sounded too slow but had a nice flow to it.
A 560R loading, just as on the Akiva, sounded too bright to my ears and show Troika's limitation too much. It's subjective I know!
A 590R was better but it's probably too open for the cartridge, still.

Bruce.

I totally agree. The performance of the SL is breathtaking and it is priced at a level that is accessible for more of us than I expected. That you can upgrade it with power supplies as you can afford it is great too. I did try powering it from my 52 to see what it was like. I was shocked how significant the drop in performance is!

Kuma

I have not had a chance to compare 150+5.6 to 220+5.6 yet. I will do later in the week. I am getting to a point where I do not want to faff around so much now, just want to enjoy I found the 590 to soften things too much so it is interesting that you like it. You need to try the 576. It seems to me to be the sweetspot giving the 560s articulation with a lovely ARO like flow and ease. I can't decide between the 560 and 576's, one suiting some music better than the other.

Is your Troika freshly rebuilt?

Julian

Julian
New SL working better that t'other one then?

Howard

Julian,

A 560R/1nF is a no go for me.

It still has a weird frequency transition happening as the system stand.

Altho, I have heard the same effect on other system as well so, maybe it's not totally system dependent thing.

A 590's not particularly soft, but the trebles become less forward and is in keeping with the rest of frequency. It does not lose the bass control much either.

Interesting to note that ever since I have been using a SuperLine, I had to retire a Nait 3R. I've also tried a borrowed CB 140 which exhibited the worst traits they are known for with a Superline in front.

Anyways, I will live with a 590R loading for a while with a P3 and see.

Re: Troika
I was told that it doesn't have much usage yet, it's a 20 years old cartridge.
I wondered about its suspension.
On Troika, a 560R loading also didn't work out. Sounding too raw. That's the K loading right?

Julian, what is the power supply you used? I'm going to be selling my 82 and 2 hicaps when I get my recently bought 52/super installed and then Superline. Should I just hold on to one of the Hicaps for good measure? (It'll have to sit on the floor) I can't afford or have the space for a supercap.

August is going to be a fun month for me when I get the kit here and running in as it's usually the hottest month, and emotional doldrums set in, in the city of lost angels. I'm buying blind just on what I know from other opinions.

Dammit, I just couldn't turn down a good preloved 52/supercap.

I've had the 453R with the centre pin removed on loan from Peter Cymbi for a week, but I preferred my 435R with the pin pinned. The removal of the pin seemed to lose a little tingling feeling in my pins. My pins are probably a better judge than my heart or brain on whether an unused pin should be left pinned. Whether a pinned pin is part of the original design, I've no idea, but it sounds tingling to me.

Big

Yes!

Kuma

I would have thought that the suspension of a Troika (or any cartridge of that age) would be well past its best now if it has not been rebuilt. The K is 560+1 and I like it (along wih the 576+1). Of course it replicates what I had in my Prefix so that may be the reason I prefer that sort of loading value. It is interesting that Bruce (bdnyc) likes the 400 with the Troika. I wonder if the lower resistance values tighten up the sound a little which would make an older cartridge sound more dynamic (just a thought?).I did not like the 590 at all, I found it had "gone too far"

Wolf

The 52/Super is a great pre. I use a Super for my SL. I found the drop in performance massive when using the 52 to power it. I would imagine keeping your best Hicap to be your best option. Then you can try a HiLine 4/5 too (something I am going to do again next week!)

quote:

I wonder if the lower resistance values tighten up the sound a little which would make an older cartridge sound more dynamic (just a thought?).

actually, on the troika, a 400R loading had an opposite effect.

It made it less dynamic than a higher value, but hid the weakness of the cart well enough that it was nice.

A higher the loading, it becomes more open on Linn cartridges in that, sometimes seeing through warts and all isn't a good thing.

That's where Linto still can be beneficial. It's more forgiving. But it's no longer funky.

re: Hicap vs. Supercap via 52 to power an SL.
It might be depending on the vintage of the HC, but I prefer powering it off a 52 rather than using a Chrome Bumper HC.

The beauty of the SL is that it can be powered off a preamp yet still delivers above average performance.

One can, I suppose, use a HC and add a Hi-Line 4/5 but then after figuring in the expense, it's better off save for a dedicated SuperCap or there might be other non-Naim alternatives.

Hi Kuma

If I remember correctly Peter found a Hicap+Hiline to be similar to or slightly ahead of a 552 powered SL. That being the case, I would expect a 52 powered SL to be inferior? Has your Hicap ever been serviced?

Regarding the Troika, I bow to your experience. I have never heard one on a SL. It was just a guess!

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
Hi Kuma

If I remember correctly Peter found a Hicap+Hiline to be similar to or slightly ahead of a 552 powered SL. That being the case, I would expect a 52 powered SL to be inferior? Has your Hicap ever been serviced?

Julian

Yes, only when used with the Hi-Line. Geoff P and I found the 552 better overall than the Hi-Cap when not using the Hi-Line 4>5.

Peter

Julian & Peter,

No Hi-line, here. For a comparison with other phonos, since I don't use any special cables, so I haven't used it.

Yes. the CB HC has been serviced, but the new one might be probably better. How much better, I don't know. It definitely has the old school Naim sound. ( this one is with a Holden Fisher transformer )

When you start adding a la carte item such as Hiline or power line, there is an incremental improvement but I think that it has a better VFM when you power it from your existing preamp even with stock accessories.

A better PSU,of course, influences but the head unit alone is pretty special off a 52.
I sure could not write it off even used as a stand-alone unit.

Everyone here would agree that you get more meaningful leap in performance when you add on a SuperCap.

That said, an SL and HiCap is still competitive to other similarly priced phonostages (i.e. 5k+USD ) out there if one doesn't use a Naim preamp. ( I should try that one of these days. )

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

I wonder if the lower resistance values tighten up the sound a little which would make an older cartridge sound more dynamic (just a thought?).

actually, on the troika, a 400R loading had an opposite effect.
It made it less dynamic than a higher value, but hid the weakness of the cart well enough that it was nice.
A higher the loading, it becomes more open on Linn cartridges in that, sometimes seeing through warts and all isn't a good thing.

Ah, maybe not for you Kuma, but this for many people is one of the Troika's strengths! Far more people are hunting down old Troika's for re-build than say the Arkiv and Arkiv B and IMHO the Troika is only surpassed in Linn's hierarchy of cartridges by the Akiva which is a wonderful sounding cartridge with many of the old Troika's musical traits and a lot more besides this too.

Your comments above make sense to me as you too found everything less dynamic and less open than the higher values like 560R. I suppose this might be considered "nice" by some and boring by others - like me. I want the warts and all I guess, but not so forward it takes the top of your head off! (This is why I'm very happy with the 576R rather than the 590R with Linn cartridges like the Akiva) Plus the musicality/tune thing is paramount to me. This was one of the several things that turned me off using the lower resistive values with the Superline originally on P1:

quote:

500 only - Sounds tamed versus the 560, lost the edge, slightly veiled, not as musical.
470 only - Flatter, loss of detail and dynamics, a bit ploddy as compared to the above. Yawn.
390 only - Flatter still, more loss of detail, slow - not the way to go, loading wise.

Interesting. At least Linn cartridge users reading this, will know exactly how and which way to go when selecting suitable loads in their own systems now as it appears we are pretty much agreed as to the effect of both resistive and capacitive.

I'll be sticking to my 576R and 1nF though

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

Everyone here would agree that you get more meaningful leap in performance when you add on a SuperCap.

I see you are doing some late night posting/listening Kuma!

Yes, I agree totally. The Supercap is a big performance leap.

KR

Peter