SuperLine Loading Thread.

As I currently don't have a Superline this may seem a slightly uncalled for post but:

I RECKON IT"S TIME FOR A CARTRIDGE vs "BEST SO FAR" LOADING SUMMARY.

Geoff

"Currently don't" implies that the situation may change? You had better give Peter a ring!

Kuma

I have tried the 150+5.6 plugs tonight. It is not really to my liking. Music is rigid, clear, controlled and restrained/polite. After a while you kind of get used to the presentation but you slowly realise you are not listening but reading the Naim forum......

On the positive side it is very natural, even handed and unexaggerated!

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
Hi Kuma

If I remember correctly Peter found a Hicap+Hiline to be similar to or slightly ahead of a 552 powered SL.

It was so close for me that the additional cost of the HiLine did not make it worthwhile (and I already own a HiCap2). I even thought the 552 did things slightly better (bottom end grunt and presence) while the HiCap/HiLine might have provided "slightly" more resolution. Not enough to get me to part with the cash for the HiLine - and downgrade the power supply from the 552 to the HiCap. As such I am sticking with the 552 to power the SuperLine. SuperCap - I don't think so - a $10K phono stage seems over the top. The SuperLine powered by the 552 is major "value for money".

Gregg

Guys, I read lots of this thread but have not come across any talk on the best loading for the Klyde. Would it be 560 + 1, is that the "K" loading and does that come standard with the superline?

Munch, do you remember what settings were used with your Klyde, you said that it sounded really good.

Thanks,

mario.

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:
Ah, maybe not for you Kuma, but this for many people is one of the Troika's strengths! Far more people are hunting down old Troika's for re-build than say the Arkiv and Arkiv B and IMHO the Troika is only surpassed in Linn's hierarchy of cartridges by the Akiva which is a wonderful sounding cartridge with many of the old Troika's musical traits and a lot more besides this too.

Peter,

But I did appreciate the strength of Troika.
Sort of like the Briks.
I haven't heard any Arkiv, but the Akiva sounds pretty hifi comparatively next to Troika.
It has a modern voicing for sure.

quote:

Your comments above make sense to me as you too found everything less dynamic and less open than the higher values like 560R.

At least with Linn cartridges, it seems that to be the case. I tried 590R on the Miyabi but as previous, a higher loading does not work on this cartridge. ( recessed midrange, sticking out treble, supersized ill defined bass. Nothing good! )

quote:

I suppose this might be considered "nice" by some and boring by others - like me. I want the warts and all I guess, but not so forward it takes the top of your head off! (This is why I'm very happy with the 576R rather than the 590R with Linn cartridges like the Akiva) Plus the musicality/tune thing is paramount to me.

Well, that's just it.
It is subjective. Some would prefer lower loading values whilst others, an opposite.

A 400R loading on the Akiva didn't do it either as you have found. ( same finding. Too closed down, slow and muddy to my ears. )

I also agree on a 500R loading on a Linn. I know this is the factory supplied Linn cartridge loading, but Naim might want to reconsider their stock plug. Altho, who knows what the real loading value is inside. :x
Have you checked the actual loading value of a 500R?

quote:

I'll be sticking to my 576R and 1nF though

I still haven't tried it. But sounds like it might be on the bright side for me, then.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
Geoff

"Currently don't" implies that the situation may change? You had better give Peter a ring!

Julian,

Geoff is a man with an impecable taste. He knows he needs to pony up for a SuperCap to better what he has currently.

quote:

Music is rigid, clear, controlled and restrained/polite....On the positive side it is very natural, even handed and unexaggerated!

That's about a good summary.
Using an actual Linto sounds faster than a *Linto loaded* SuperLine, but then it is not well fleshed out.

Any one thought of making up a device with a "ganged" 1% or so potentiometer, vary it until the best sound is heard measure and fit fixed resitors to suit.
Capacitors side seems less "finicketty" .

quote:

Julian,

Geoff is a man with an impecable taste. He knows he needs to pony up for a SuperCap to better what he has currently.

Ah Kuma...the first bit is true. The second bit ain't on the agenda. As a dissenter here I can reveal that the latest DIY upgrade to the jolly old non standard Vinyl 1 has elevated performance significantly to my ears. I can't claim it is better than a Supercapped SL cause I have never heard that expensive combo, but at an outlay of approxm. 150 US $ it seems great VFM to my ears and certainly as good as what I heard on a SL/HC2/Hiline4-5 ....and I can tune it by swapping resistor values just like you guys

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
Any one thought of making up a device with a "ganged" 1% or so potentiometer, vary it until the best sound is heard measure and fit fixed resitors to suit.
Capacitors side seems less "finicketty" .

Howard...I think it is a good idea that has occurred to a few folks here. Certainly I had a conversation with Peter in which we sort of mutually agreed it seemed the ideal 'final' solution.

My version came from the observations inside my 500 (who can resist lifting the 500 gull wings for a peek?). There are resistor pairs soldered in where presets would logically reside suggesting they trim with presets and then hard wire resistors before final ship.

Of course I may be wrong....and I could see how Naim would not be happy at the idea of a load of dealers with variable soldering skills let loose on this task...let alone some of us DIY clods

regards
Geoff

I'm using the 560+1 with my Klyde it's far better than the supplied 500.

quote:

Originally posted by Mario:
Guys, I read lots of this thread but have not come across any talk on the best loading for the Klyde. Would it be 560 + 1, is that the "K" loading and does that come standard with the superline?

Munch, do you remember what settings were used with your Klyde, you said that it sounded really good.

Thanks,

mario.

Geoff,

Glad that a *kevin* mod has worked out for your favour.

What interconnect are you using between a V1 and 552?

Thank you Rattlesnaic, I thoght that my question was going to be ignored for a second time.

Cheers,

Mario

quote:

Originally posted by Rattlesnaic:
I'm using the 560+1 with my Klyde it's far better than the supplied 500.

quote:

Originally posted by Mario:
Guys, I read lots of this thread but have not come across any talk on the best loading for the Klyde. Would it be 560 + 1, is that the "K" loading and does that come standard with the superline?

Munch, do you remember what settings were used with your Klyde, you said that it sounded really good.

Thanks,

mario.

quote:

I dont remember what the loading was.
Peter or Julian might remember.

Neither do I so I dug out the photo! There was only one plug in at the time so guess it was resistive. I did not have the 576R back then so I would assume that it was either a 500R or 560R.

I believe that it was Paul Stevenson a while ago on the forum who mentioned that some Klyde users prefer the S loading on the Prefix to the more traditional "for Linn" K loading so the 500R and 560R would be the most logical place to start. You might also like to try a 220R+5.6nF combination which gets close to Linto loading. I have tried "my150R"+5.6nF too which is an almost perfect Linto load; I'm not too keen but you may like it with a Klyde.

Julian

ps - Here is Munchs' deck at mine earlier in the year, using the SL before his new Prefix was fitted.

For a Klyde 560R is good bit I had a brief listen to the 576R last week when setting one up on an Ekos2 and preferred it, as it was a little more detailed, cleaner and even more musical.

I have just received an Aro/Troika in for service and I intend to have a good play with loadings once I'm back from Frank's place on Tuesday and I've had chance to service/re-build the deck, so I should be able to help on the Troika loadings shortly.

Kind regards,

Peter

All,

The SuperLine is still running in but what a great music maker it is!

On my LP12/EkosSE/Akiva the initial installation impression is that I much prefer the 500R+1nF to the 560R+1nF (contary to the trend on this thread?).

The 500+1 is much more musical, the music really flows and the 'band plays together'.

Where as the 560+1 was a bit coarser with the band playing as individuals rather than together.

After further burn in I will try the 560+1 again over the next week or so and see if I change my preference.

Richard


p.s. This has brought to reality my earlier fears with the SL that it is a tweekers paradise which is not what I want I just want music not tweeking and the worry "if only i tweek this it would....!"

quote:

Going up to 576 + 1nf appeared to provide more detail but was not as eay to listen to. Bear in mind that my system is active and so very revealing and it might be that for a passive system the 576 could be preferred.

Frank,

That's interesting.
Any chance you can try a 590R loading plug?

Thanks Frank.

A 590R seems to be still doing ok with a P3.
It is more polite than 560R ( I still haven't tried a 576R ), but the trebles can stay civilised longer even with a worst commercial recordings.

One more question for you.

How did you find the difference between a 500R and 590R?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Thanks Frank.

A 590R seems to be still doing ok with a P3.
It is more polite than 560R ( I still haven't tried a 576R ), but the trebles can stay civilised longer even with a worst commercial recordings.

One more question for you.

How did you find the difference between a 500R and 590R?

Hi Kuma,

Frank and PB needed some sleep and headed off a couple of hours ago.

The 590R sounds slightly sterile as compared to the 576R through Frank's system. I set the speakers up earlier and managed to find some improvements for him, so I think it is likely he will prefer the 576R to the 560R when he listens later today, as the deck/arm/T-Kable/cartridge combo is sweeter now it's had a few hours put on it.

The 500R goes the other way. It's slightly veiled, lacks punch and is not as musical as either the 560R or the 576R.

Comparing the 500R to 590R.... Well IMHO they are both not as good as indicated above. the 590R would be slightly better than the 500R IMHO but in a good, well set up system it has to be the 576R (with 1nF) for me (warts and all) no other resistive load gives me so much from an Akiva on a full Se deck so far.

I suppose a 500R may work for some people if they need to correct for an issue elsewhere in the system? But certainly on about five occasions now, when setting up Superlines for customers with Akivas, once I've checked through the rest of the system, just like with Frank earlier, the 576R is just simply better: More detail, more musical, better dynamics, more live, more real.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Peter - off now to play Solitude Standing - a great late night listen

Peter,

Yes. This point I am using a plug as a tone control somewhat.

I know it's not great, but not everyone can have a tip top system. That's pretty much the reality of a vinyl based system, I think.

My system, no doubt, is off, but then other system I have heard the plugs in must have been off, too then.

FWIW, both systems did not contain any 500 series kit altho, in an all Naim system, SuperCap was used for the SuperLine.

All'n'all, it's still a good phono, but in order to hear what it can do, it is best in a 500 series based system. Or else, the system needs to be dialed pretty close otherwise, you hear the unwanted stuff off the record or system.

I've tried my Miyabi with such a system. I couldn't really fault for anything. ( and this is even without any plug experiments using a stock 220R/no caps )

quote:

The 590R sounds slightly sterile as compared to the 576R through Frank's system. I set the speakers up earlier and managed to find some improvements for him, so I think it is likely he will prefer the 576R to the 560R when he listens later today, as the deck/arm/T-Kable/cartridge combo is sweeter now it's had a few hours put on it.

The 500R goes the other way. It's slightly veiled, lacks punch and is not as musical as either the 560R or the 576R.

Comparing the 500R to 590R.... Well IMHO they are both not as good as indicated above. the 590R would be slightly better than the 500R IMHO but in a good, well set up system it has to be the 576R (with 1nF) for me (warts and all) no other resistive load gives me so much from an Akiva on a full Se deck so far.

...but your mileage may vary on a fully-Naimed deck, as there are at least three other factors at work (arm / cabling / motor power supply).

That is why it's incredibly important to try out various loading combinations as there exists no orthodox, correct loading for every combination of ancillary equipment–a real hard-to-stomach concept for many of those who, in consideration of Naim phono stages for their system, previously thought in terms of "K", "S" or "E".

This reminds me of another point–the removable DIN plugs for R and C loading ultimately encourage experimentation by the end-user, which might be a bit of a leap for some (much like trim pot settings on an active crossover)–requiring a bit of initiative on the part of the end-user to optimize the performance.

As always, your mileage may vary–and remember, your ears determine your own preferences.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cymbiosis:
I suppose a 500R may work for some people if they need to correct for an issue elsewhere in the system? But certainly on about five occasions now, when setting up Superlines for customers with Akivas, once I've checked through the rest of the system, just like with Frank earlier, the 576R is just simply better: More detail, more musical, better dynamics, more live, more real.
QUOTE]

Interesting comment about the "500R may work for some people if they need to correct for an issue elsewhere in the system?" have you any evidence for this?

As I indicated a preference for the 500R over the 560R (I don't have a 576R to try). I am sure my system is set up well and was fully checked over when I had the SL installed this weekend by a well known supplier who I highly rate.

So this week end I will definitely be comparing the 500R v 560R again but it sounded mighty fine last night!

Will report back.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
...but your mileage may vary on a fully-Naimed deck, as there are at least three other factors at work (arm / cabling / motor power supply).

That is why it's incredibly important to try out various loading combinations as there exists no orthodox, correct loading for every combination of ancillary equipment–a real hard-to-stomach concept for many of those who, in consideration of Naim phono stages for their system, previously thought in terms of "K", "S" or "E".

As always, your mileage may vary–and remember, your ears determine your own preferences.

David, I have tried the Akiva on an Aro and Geddon combination too on a number of occasions. Frank's Aro and Geddon here in Malaga are being used in combination with his TK Rua so I can't make an easy comparison here against his full Se spec deck for the Frank and PB to show the point, as the spare Aro I brought has an XV1-s, but it's an easy one to do at the shop.

As for the motor being a third variable you listed - absolutely, and it would be in the bin like the one I pulled from Frank's other deck.

Personally, I think if you are loading to suit ancillary equipment, this is not the way to go. The cartridge for me, has to be the load determining factor. - Each to their own though, as Kuma shows above. Personal preference is personal by definition and I respect your opinions, even if it's not the way I continue to do things. So long as we are all listening and judging according to PRaT, musical pleasure given etc then that's fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Olsen: Interesting comment about the "500R may work for some people if they need to correct for an issue elsewhere in the system?" have you any evidence for this?

Only my ears Richard and the ears of others. I've done the comparison between 500R and 560R many times and in terms of boogie factor IMHO the 560R is much better. The 576R IMHO is a little better still but a 590R is a step to far with an Akiva. I'm not for turning on this one Richard. But, if you prefer the 500R in the context of your system, the room it's in, then that's fine and you should be listening to your local dealer who has experience of your set-up. I am very gladdened to hear he's called out and checked everything over - this is exactly what's called for and he is providing this service to you. Excellent! I guess it's Hamish then.........

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:


Only my ears Richard and the ears of others. I've done the comparison between 500R and 560R many times and in terms of boogie factor IMHO the 560R is much better. The 576R IMHO is a little better still but a 590R is a step to far with an Akiva. I'm not for turning on this one Richard. But, if you prefer the 500R in the context of your system, the room it's in, then that's fine and you should be listening to your local dealer who has experience of your set-up. I am very gladdened to hear he's called out and checked everything over - this is exactly what's called for and he is providing this service to you. Excellent! I guess it's Hamish then.........

peter,

I agree 'ears' are the best for evaluation and my only method.

But I was interested in case you had found a problem in a system that you had rectified to find that the 576R then sounded better than the 500R.

And it was David rather than Hamish!

Kind regards,

Richard

p.s. Depending on how the 560R goes over the week end I may have to get a special order, I assume, to give the 576R a try?

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Olsen:

But I was interested in case you had found a problem in a system that you had rectified to find that the 576R then sounded better than the 500R.
p.s. Depending on how the 560R goes over the week end I may have to get a special order, I assume, to give the 576R a try?

IMHO the 576R always sounds beter..... so far.

If the 560R is a no go I'd expect the 576R to be a step even further in the wrong direction for you.

KR

Peter

PS. Just off out to try and find Polarbear some Paella!

Just to add fuel to the fire so to speak

I am not sure about the 576R. Having said that, I'm not sure about the 560R either. From what I have heard with the loadings near to the old K boards (500, 549, 560, 576 and 590), the 560 or 576 are the way to go. However, which one, I could not answer definitively. The 1nF capacitor I see as fairly essential, adding a little bit more substance.

I find the 560+1 and 576+1 both very enjoyable. With my ears, I hear the 576+1 has a better flow and detail. The 560+1 has a slightly more constrained, mechanical quality which I often prefer.

I hope my system is set up just about as good as it can be with Peter's workmanship on the Linn and the component positions and cable dressing optimised (after receiving inspiration from Peter) and some experimentation.

So, is 576+1 the one. Who knows......

Julian

ps - see food Paella, polarbears will travel

FYI, 593R is the value that, when paralleled with a 10K internal load, gives a nominal 560R loading ("K" type); 493R gives a nominal 470R loading ("S" type).