SuperLine Loading Thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank F:

First of all TK Rua and XV1-S were both optimum with 453 ohms and no extra capacitance.

Hi Frank. It does appear that 453R & no capacitance plug is the "Golden" setting for the Dyno TKR/XV1s cartridges.

On Julian's suggestion I tried the 470R/5.6 Cap combination, this being closest to "S" board, but the addition of capacitance completely screws up the sound - it becomes dull and lifeless.

Tony

Well at least you tried......

Actually, the nearest to the S loading would appear to be 500+5.6 which would give you 476+ 4.8 actual. I suspect you will have similar results to the 470+5.6 plugs if you do the test. Have a play on Wednesday! I'll be very intersted on the performance lift between normal and Airplugs since this is something I will consider doing once I have decided on my final loading choice!

It would also appear that I now like 530+1.1 or 544+1.1 actual!

J

I'll report back Julian!

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
FYI, 593R is the value that, when paralleled with a 10K internal load, gives a nominal 560R loading ("K" type);

hmm..

That's interesting.

quote:

I agree 'ears' are the best for evaluation and my only method.

But I was interested in case you had found a problem in a system that you had rectified to find that the 576R then sounded better than the 500R.

Two biggest variables are still a listener him/herself and how their systems are set up.

Especially with something like a turntable where just so many things can go wrong.

A 590R/1nF is softer sounding than a 560R. I am aware of it but this setting seems to be averaging much better in terms of playing all kind of discs rather well.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
It would also appear that I now like 530+1.1 or 544+1.1 actual!

for me it appears between 576 and 590 for the Akiva! ( unless something changes in the system )

Troika loading update-

Having spent more time listening to my LP 12 in the last two weeks than I had previously over the last two years, I wanted to add some thoughts on the Troika in particular. My previous comments of appreciation of the 400 ohm resistive plug were somewhat preliminary. Most of my shock and enthusiasm was due to the Superline itself, not which value or values were in place. I now prefer the base level of the 500 ohm with the 1nF capacitance value on my system, and will most likely request one or two of the most popular mid 500 range, 576, etc. It would be great to hear from other users if anyone has had a chance to play with various settings on the Troika.

For me, the main surprise here has been how varied the sound is record by record, which makes this sort of experimentation best done with patience, over time, and not rushed. On well recorded jazz LP's like Bill Evan's classic late era studio masterpiece "You Must Believe In Spring", the turntable is simply more fluid and human, and the music making more real and more vital on the turntable even though the CDS3 is still stunningly good on CD. I did another comparative test on Paul Simon's early 70's LP "There Goes Rhymin' Simon" and on some of the songs, the recent remastered CD's on the Paul Simon Box Set were more open and cleanly detailed, yet on the LP I have had since the 70's, there was a warmer, richer, more seamless presentation. That balance was somewhat shifted by substituting in a 200 gram pressing done by Classic Records, and there, with something way closer to the master tape than my early, and much played LP, vinyl wasn't so much a different sound, however pleasing and familiar, it was simply more real, and more integrated and organic. My final LP in one night of testing was more of a mixed experience, in the sense that each track was very different. The LP was the Neville Brother's great "Yellow Moon", which is a Daniel Lanois production, and very much a sonic creation type of album and not a naturalistic recording. They have a standout cover of "A Change is Gonna Come" with a typical ly great vocal performance by Aaron Neville, with layers of reverb and a halo around his voice, which is simply mesmerizing. The next track was more of funk workout, and sonically, quite a bit more shut in, and almost airless. I don't recall having this sort of insight into the small nuances in music or recordings with the Prefix, which had more of a single sound, but was clearly, far less revealing and transparent.

Good listening,

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by bdnyc:

For me, the main surprise here has been how varied the sound is record by record, which makes this sort of experimentation best done with patience, over time, and not rushed.
Bruce

Bruce,

I have come to a similar conclusion that this takes time.

So whilst I am enjoying my EkosSE/Akiva on a 500+1 option I plan to leave it as it is for the rest of the week and then try the 560+1 for the next week.

This way I can have time to enjoy and appreciate the feeling/soul of the music rather than switching betwen options after each LP or even track. As often switching too frequently one is impressed by Hi-Fi fireworks rather than the real musical soul (if you understand me).

My best audio decisions to date have been bassed on whether I miss something when it's gone!

All the best,

Richard from "Old York"

I also find the condition of record greatly varies so averaging is very important.

With a 560R, whilst it sounds pretty good on a well recorded, low surface noise record, it's not acceptable at all on majority of my records I play. ( ratio is about 80:20, 80 being unbearably bright bordering distortion )

With 590R, the ratio now is reversed making majority of my record listenable.

453R sounding astonishingly good through High-Caped Superline with XX-2/Aro/LP12 feeding 82/Supercap II/250. Considerably better than the 'stock' 500R - more precision/detail and 'airiness'to the sound noticeable. Thanks to Peter and the chaps at Cymbiosis for the great advice and assistance. Much appreciated !

quote:

I have moved back to 560 + 1 nf, much more natural on everything that I have played so far - rock, classical, U2 and Talking Heads.

I think that there may be some confusion about what the various resistances are as some people appear to quote the total resistance and some are quoting the value of the resistor inside the plug. I am quoting total resistance

Hiya Frank

Are you using a 593ohm resistor in your loading plug? Is that with the Akiva? What do you think?

Julian

Frank

You have mail

J

quote:

Originally posted by Frank F:
I think that there may be some confusion about what the various resistances are as some people appear to quote the total resistance and some are quoting the value of the resistor inside the plug. I am quoting total resistance

I don't know what's the true value of factory stock resistor plugs.

I am assuming custom ones came from NANA are true resistance value inside the plug.

560R/1nf sounding natural, eh?

That was not at all the case here.

Well, I'll be the odd man out.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank F:
Hi Kuma,

I have moved back to 560 + 1 nf, much more natural on everything that I have played so far - rock, classical, U2 and Talking Heads.

I think that there may be some confusion about what the various resistances are as some people appear to quote the total resistance and some are quoting the value of the resistor inside the plug. I am quoting total resistance

FF

H Frank,

You are quoting the resistance of the plug. There is some varience between the measured value of resistors so I've been selecting paired resistors for a while. This is more down to instinct than any listening tests I've done as I'm not sure what the threshold of actually hearing a difference between resistors is, although with the XV1-s the 453R did sound better than a 449R plug I tried some time ago from memory! Once built, I then measure the resistance across the pins too to ensure they are still matched.

As for the 560R and 576R judgement, well I think that's exactly what it is, as they are both great in your system. The 576R making the sound just a little faster, tighter....etc, might not be exactly what you want given your use of the 2 X NAP300, active SBL combo in what is a fab sounding but still quite lightly damped room - It's pretty bl**dy fast now! So the 560R may well be the preferred option, particularly if you have had any power cuts and the system is still warming up again

So, in summary the judgement call between 560R and 576R is a maybe a personal one. Yes, I prefer the 576R, but it's not as clear cut a preference as say the 453R is for the XV1-s or the TK Rua. It's nice to be able to try the different plugs and make that judgement for yourself though.

Kind regards,

Peter

Enjoy

quote:

You are quoting the resistance of the plug. There is some varience between the measured value of resistors so I've been selecting paired resistors for a while. This is more down to instinct than any listening tests I've done as I'm not sure what the threshold of actually hearing a difference between resistors is

Hi Peter,

I measured all my resistors whilst I had your pinless one and the results were as follows:

my 453r = 455/454
pinless 453r = 455/454
470r = 466/465
500r = 510/510
220r = 215.6/219.0

This shows how interesting I am at parties.

Not fully understanding all this but how about all of us ensuring that we quote what is written on the plug and then comment on other values measured, observed etc.

Richard "confused of York"

p.s. After a week on the 500+1 I switched last night to 560+1 and after initialy thinking it lost some 'real live music' feal I am begining to appreciate it but still too early. My test is whether I miss something or not when it has gone. Will report back.

quote:

Originally posted by count.d:


Hi Peter,
I measured all my resistors whilst I had your pinless one and the results were as follows:

220r = 215.6/219.0

This shows how interesting I am at parties.

That may well be so! However, your results bear out what I was saying above, with the exception of the stock 220R supplied in the Superline pack. I guess they are 5% tolerance.

Would one hear a difference between channels with this differential? Well, as I said above, the 453R was better than a 449R I tried, but with the 220R I haven't listened much as it doesnt seem to work with any of the cartridges I stock.

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

This shows how interesting I am at parties.

Hmm, me too!

My stock 500 is 510/511, the actual resistors fitted are 510 +/- 1%!
All of my other stock plugs are within one ohm of the plugs labelled value.
My Peter constructed 576 is 576/577.

I think 1 out is perfctly acceptable.

And my 5.6 plug has 4.7nF capacitors fitted!

J

quote:

I am assuming custom ones came from NANA are true resistance value inside the plug.

Yes–usually well within 1/2% tolerance, measured with a fully-warmed up meter or two. Plugs from us are labeled, like Peter's, with the actual resistance on the plug housing (more useful IMHO). There will also be temp coefficient errors, &c. &c., but in general, the deviations from target value are quite a bit lower than a percentage tolerance would meaningfully communicate.

For example: one can make up a 593R plug using two 300R resistors in series at the low end of their 5% tolerance (292.5R lowest value), tighter still using 2% tolerance resistors (297R lowest value x 2 gives 594R).

If you were lucky to have a 1% 590R component, the values could still range from 587R (low end) to 593R (high end). We can reliably measure differences of 0.2R at 600R (roughly 0.033%), so it makes sense to use doubled-up components that are measured independently as well as once assembled at the target value.

A comparison with a single-component plug shows no differences in performance versus a twin-component load, as there are already four solder joints on a single resistive load to begin with (entry pin to entry lead, entry lead to component, component to exit lead, exit lead to exit pin) due to manufacture. Components are twisted together at one end, then soldered, so it's some serious hair-splitting to count accurately the number of effective solder joints!

Why so tightly measure when the values are used in parallel with a nominal 10K internal load? At the low end of loading values, any errors are dominated by the value of the external loading plug (inversely for voltage gain, series for current), not the internal load.

And, no, you're not the odd man out.

David.

I think I understood your last sentence.<the rest flew waaaay over my head> :x

Will explain it later in the day. :P

sounds like the quest for the holy grail.

;-0

Does anyone have any experience of using a Ortofon Windfeld with a SuperLine. I'd be very interested in knowing what loading gave the best results.

Looks like we've been unlocked...

Probably the conclusion is that there is no conclusion - the optimal loadings exist within reasonable ranges and fine tuning in situ should take place according to system factors, room acoustics, and personal taste of the set's owner. Trial and error in other words.

As ever taste is broad enough to prevent a sure answer, applicable in every case.

George

I must admit to some surprise that you are even commenting on this thread, George - I thought you said the other day that vinyl replay was rubbish!