SuperLine Loading Thread.

I must say, that with all who have been reviewing this box I"m impressed by the fact that it is so versatile. As George said you can tune it to your own system, room and personal taste. That sounds exciting enough. If it were just one box fits all there would be loads of critiques and disappointment. I'm sure in the future there will be a new set of plugs to focus on different makes.

glenn

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Probably the conclusion is that there is no conclusion - the optimal loadings exist within reasonable ranges and fine tuning in situ should take place according to system factors, room acoustics, and personal taste of the set's owner.

George,

I think you've got it in a nutshell.

Akiva update:
It finally locked with a 590R/No cap but put the resistor plug in a capacitive DIN socket.

When a Resistor plug is used on the resistor DIN socket, it requires 1nf cap to keep the occasional treble shouting down. But a resistor is plugged in the capacitive socket, it seems to balance the transient, bass linearity and help the treble extension without much glare. Plus an added bonus: nice midrange projection and naturalness.

The Forum consensus 576R plug didn't work for me.

So, this is it! (for me, that is )

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
- I thought you said the other day that vinyl replay was rubbish!

A vinyl replay can sound rubbish.

A HDX is where it's at.

I said I would report back on my findings as one who has had concerns about the ‘tweakers paradise’ the SL offers.

First I must say that ‘tweaking’ has proven beneficial and I thank all those who have contributed to this forum as it has helped.

I have left things to my own ears and judgement as, in the words of a certain Robert Zimmerman, “Don’t follow leaders, Watch the parkin’ meters”.

This is now week two and for the first week I was enamoured by the 500+1 combination. It definitely moved along with real pace and rhythm with that live music feel about it.

Most of the artists I played I had seen live so I felt I had an insight of what they would want. These ranged from John Martyn, David Gilmour, Dave Crosby, Roger McGuinn, Bryan Ferry, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Jimi Hendrix (unfortunately missed him at the Isle of Wight 1969!), Cream, Robert Plant, UB40, Nick Cave, Third World (have not seen), Bob Marley (have not seen), Ray Davies, Nick Drake (didn't discover him until it was too late), Steve Winwood (excellent new LP by the way!) etc etc.

After one week I was really very pleased but as The Sound Organisation (York) had lent me a 560 I owed to them, and myself, to give it a fair audition.

Switching to the 560 at first I thought it was a bit granular and lost a bit of that ‘full’ live sound. The loss was really perceived to be associated with resonance around the double bass for example. But after saying that it did have a certain quality.

Anyway as the first evening progressed it showed itself to be a very musical beast and I preferred it’s ‘groove’ to the 500+1 and it recovered that live band playing together feal –maybe it had warmed up?. Maybe it was that my full system was warming up as I had to power down mid week due to thunderstorms. The bass resonance compared to the 500 also felt more 'right' on the 560.

As is often the case I get used to a particular LP and its sound so fortunately the new Ben Harper LP arrived from Diverse Vinyl which I had never heard before. So I switched back to the 500+1 to give it a play end to end. It sounded exceptionally good with a lot of feeling but maybe a bit more 'muddy' I thought.

Then I switched back to the 560+1 and played the LP all over again. Right from the first few bars I knew that the 560+1 had something more compared to the 500+1 it lost that 'muddy' sound and just played!

The 560+1 can also move a long with real flow and rhythm whilst revealing more detail and not sounding ‘digital’ if you know what I mean. The vocals are excellent and Dylan has never sounded better!

So another few nights listening to some great music with the 560+1 followed.

I will need to return the 560 to The SORG this weekend and this will be a further verification test as I go back to the 500.

As if I miss the 560 it I know it is better for me.

So the 560+1 currently pips the 500+1 for me.

Although, I will now ask The SORG to make me up a 576 ( and oh no maybe a 590!)to trial and I can start again. At least I will then have a range of reference points and hopefully can zoom in on the solution for me as it is all about personal preference and forget about all the tweaks and listen to the music..........that is until the ‘air plug’ comes along!

Once again thanks for all the info in this web and maybe one day we can maintain, with Naim?, a summary bulletin board of findings to help people get started by seeing the likely range of settings they should audition and avoid the worry of “if only I had tried a different setting then…..?”.

Oh yes, and what a mighty fine product the SL is!

Richard

I have been listening to a Superline loaned from James at Tomtom for the last week and after my initial disappointment, perhaps this may have been due to driving around 200 miles from where I had been working via St Albans and then on to home, straining a muscle lifting a 555 down onto the floor so I could put the Superline somewhere accessible or may be because the Superline had only been out of the box for 10 minutes I am not sure. I am now amazed at its ability to produce music. It has bought a whole new dimension to my vinyl collection that had been banished to under the stairs. I now find myself listening to records that I bought over 20 years ago and hearing the little crackle or pop and thinking that this fantastic sound is really coming from a record.
Thank you James and Naim.

Looking through previous posts Linn cartridges seemed to benifit from custom Resistance loading plugs along with the 1nf plug so armed with an electronics catalogue, soldering iron and solder I made several different plugs. 549R, 560R, 576R and 590R from 1% tolerance resistors paired to 0.1ohm of the base value. My conclusions are for my LP12, Ittok, Klyde, T-Kable a 560R gives me the best overall and consistant sound. Other values sounded very marginally better but only on certain LPs and so loose out on practicallity.
If anyone would like to borrow these plugs to try for their self let me know otherwise they will be going into the loft with the box.

Trevor

I went resistor shopping yesterday. The local hobby electronics store has a wide range of half watt 1% tolerance resistors, but unfortunately no 576 or 590 ohm, so I bought a packet each of 560 and 620. The cheapest hi fi purchase I've ever made, eight resistors to the packet for 38 cents!

Sorted a matching pair from each packet, 559 and 617 ohms according to my multimeter, then a few minutes with a couple of spare din plugs and a mini soldering iron and job's right.

Started off intending to play one track of Peter Tosh's Bush Doctor as a test with 560+1nf (ARO & Akiva). It sounded so good I played both sides right through before moving on.

Keeping in context that the Superline with any of these plugs is light years ahead of anything I've experienced, the pecking order is clear, and not much different to that found by most others. The 560 is the pick, more open and detailed with better musical flow, followed by the 500 which is a bit shut in and uneven in the bass by comparison and then the 620 which lags some distance behind, sounding somewhat overdamped. Only by comparison of course, if I'd had nothing to compare the 620 with I would have said it's a marvel.

The 560 can be a tiny bit bright on a few records, but that could be just newness. I'll leave it alone for a while and see if I can find some 576 somewhere.

Update, ordered some 576 ohm 0.1% resistors online. Hellishly expensive these, $3.23 each!

bazz,

What solder are you using?

Kuma, just the stuff that's already in the (used) Din plugs, the resistors come pretinned, no need to add anything.

I don't belive it or maybe I do!

Just returned the 560R I had on trial from The SORG and reverted back to the standard 500R.

After a week of the 500R then a week of the 560R I felt I prefered the 560R.

Now I am back on the 500R and on a rainy day in York I am loving the 500R for it's "fullness" and rhythm..fantastic!!!

But so was the 560R and probably still has the edge on the 500R but it is now returned!

The story will get worse as I have asked The SORG to build a 576R for me to trial.

So the story continues...

But on both options so far I am absolutely delighted and can't stop playing LPs.

Currently grooving to The Beatles and Help! which I haven't played for years it just rocks on "Dizzy Miss Lizzie".

Richard

p.s Let it keep raining as I am grooving on a rainy day...so it must be Jimi Hendrix and Electric Ladyland next!

Love the Beatles, they really had a good groove and production thanks to Paul and George Martin.

I usually listen to Electric Lady Land when I need that Hendrix fix. But usually only side 1 and then flip to 4.

quote:

Originally posted by bazz:


Started off intending to play one track of Peter Tosh's Bush Doctor as a test with 560+1nf (ARO & Akiva). It sounded so good I played both sides right through before moving on.

I have not heard the 576 however I played the EXACT same album using the same DIN/Aro/Akiva about 2 months ago and it sounded pretty damn good to me !!!

Gregg

great album

Any loading advice for Helikon SL users? Starting my experiments today. Advice welcome!

Chris Bell

I set up an LP12 Aro Helikon Geddon for a guy in Surrey last month when I installed his Superline. I lent him several plugs from 576R down to 453R to experiment with, additional to the standard loading plug pack, so I'll contact him and see how he's getting on. I would assume the higher resistive values will be working best for him.

Kind regards,

Peter

Chris

IIRC, he Helikon SL was bought out by Lyra as a "sort of replacement" for the Troika, modified from the standard model to run on K boards.

If that is correct, I would expect a good starting point to be 560R, 576R or 590R with 1nF capacitance.

Julian

quote:

560R, 576R or 590R

Are these custom or special order plugs? My SL did not ship with these.

Chris Bell

Chris

I have the 560R and 576R since I have the good fortune of having Peter as my dealer. I know he made the 576R himself but the 560R may have been Naim-made. I have aso tried the 549R and 590R too, also thanks to Peter.

I have made two myself now and it is really easy to do. Don't you have a store in the USA called Radioshack? They could provide you with the necessary bits!

Once you have decided on what loading you want, I am sure you could special order it from Naim or NANA if you really wanted to.

Good luck,
Julian

I am going to have to look into those alternate plugs.

Can anyone explain exactly what the plugs are doing? What's the difference between the two?

Chris Bell

Frank.

Is the Akiva on the EKOS or ARO?

It is a lot different sounding from 576R, isn't it?

Frank,

An EKOS SE on a Keeled Sondek is pretty good.
Puzzled, tho, you should get a better frequency extremes out of the combo over an ARO. ( that's what I have heard with my demo )

Ah.. gotcha.

I love the *nominal K* loading ( 590R/100pF) with my ARO so far!

Dear Frank

I am glad you are getting on well with the 150R/5.6nF plugs.

You may recall my post sometime ago where I reported my findings on the particular loading combination.

quote:

I have tried the 150+5.6 plugs tonight. It is not really to my liking. Music is rigid, clear, controlled and restrained/polite. After a while you kind of get used to the presentation but you slowly realise you are not listening but reading the Naim forum......

On the positive side it is very natural, even handed and unexaggerated!

Obviously I have not been able to try it recently. However, I feel my feelings at the time were so conclusive that I am sure I would still prefer the 560/576+1 plugs by a considerable margin. It may, of course, be something to do with the type of music we listen to. I understand from chatting to munch this evening that you prefer classical and jazz music. Whilst I do like some jazz occasionally, classical music is not on my agenda.

I wonder if the more level headed “style” of the 150R/5.6nF suits?

I, myself am still undecided. I have the 560+1 and 576+1 on my preferences shortlist and am arranging to get a couple of 590 ohm resistors so I can try that again!

Best wishes, Julian

quote:

Please get a couple of 590s for me as well!!

No probs. I'm going to get 10 and match them up. I'll pop them in the post!

J

Well my journey continues as I have just been listening with a 576R which The SORG (York) built for me with components supplied by Naim – thanks SORG!

A bit of a recap:

I am a LP12/Keel/EkosSE/Akiva user with a Superline/Supercap.

The steps on my journey so far:

1. On initial installation I preferred the 500R to the 560R (on loan from the SORG) as the music really flowed and decided to listen for a week before really trying the 560R. The week of 500R was real insight with lots of boogy!

2. Then ran the 56OR for a week and loved it after at first feeling it was too granular and lost a bit of the full ‘live’ feeling. But the 560R grew on me especially the vocals and detail. And decided I preferred the 560R to the 500R but asked The SORG to build a 576R for me.

3. When I returned the 560R to the SORG and went back to the 500R I was ‘gob smacked’ and just loved the 500R’s “fullness”, rhythmic qualities and a live performance. So I was in doubt!

4. Then the 576R from The SORG arrived and I plugged it in to warm up early Saturday evening listening to David Gilmour “On An island” in the bath (a usual good test for me!) and it sounded incredible so played it again (downstairs this time) and it really grooved – I heard things I never had before and it “all made sense!” – Excellent the 576R seemed to be for me!

I went through “On an Island” twice then: Steve Winwood “Nine Lives”, Traffic “Low Sparks Of High Healed Boys” & “Shoot Out At The Fantasy Factory” all fantastic and from artists I have seen many a time.

Then moved over to live performance by Jimi Hendrix “Band of Gypsies” and whilst it felt good especially Hendrix's guitar I felt it had lost something. So I switched to one of my reference tracks the live recording of Little Wing from “Hendrix in the West”. Whilst the guitar was really clear Jimi’s vocal’s sounded good but “thin”, also the drums from Mitch sounded a bit “thin/tinny” (also it reminded me of early ‘digital’ sound!)

So switched to the 500R and whilst some detailed maybe not as forward it sounded more real in that Mitch’s drums had the thwack of reality and Jimi’s voice was more full/rounded and sounded human! Also the bass resonated like in a live gig!

I then thought as I had never seen Hendrix live (there lies a story from 1969!) I should try a recent band I had seen. So switched to Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds “Dig Lazarus Dig!” on the 576R and once again beautiful details and interplay of musicians but Nick’s vocal sounded way too thin. Switched to the 500R and there he was in the room … incredible! … but loss of some flow/interplay and maybe a bit “muddy” but definitely real and no “thinness”.

Now where that leaves me I am not sure…maybe it’s a 500 for live recordings and a 576R for studio….maybe it depends on the style of music …I don’t know.

So I am going to report back to David at The SORG and probably have a loan of the 560R again and compare the 500R v 560R v 570R.

So my journey continues.

Richard

p.s. Currently listening to Nick Drake “Five Leaves Left” with the 576R and it sounds mighty good!

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:

quote:

Please get a couple of 590s for me as well!!

No probs. I'm going to get 10 and match them up. I'll pop them in the post!

J

Julian,

If you have a pair spare....... If not, please bring a plug with you when you and Munch come north for the Forum meeting in September.

KR.

Peter