SuperLine Loading Thread.

Since the number of 'favourable' cartridges available for Naim systems is relatively small, it won't be long before we have a good understanding of suitable load ranges for cartridges and then indivial customers can get alongside their dealers, get a selection and make a choice. Further databasing of those choices I suspect would narrow the choice of actual used values down to just a few. I think Naim recognised the clarity of the product was such that the loads were VERY audible and have injected some fun and a sense of a community task. Get us all talking and sharing...nice
I know I'm having lots of fun with this. Anyone else?

Chris

This further fills me with horror about the right loading plugs for the Superline.

As at the end of the day I want the best music out of the box and not spend for ever tweeking or after a period of time (maybe years) realises if only I had done x, y and z things could have been even better!



Richard

p.s. I have a home dem this week end!

It seems my post has opened up a wealth of discussion, much of it coming up with good ideas -- which was entirely the point of my posting.

Dave, I wasnt *criticising* Naim -- just pointing out that it isnt the best solution in the longer term to send out lots of plugs with each superline once it has been determined what plugs work well with which cartridge, at least as a starting point.

I'm simply trying to maximise naim's profits, which in the long term is to the benefit of us all, and bring the dealer tighter into the equation.

As I said in my original posting, all of us (naim, dealers, owners) have had to start *somewhere*. That the superline is a super sensitive tuned device is entirely for the good -- it clearly shows how well designed it is. Think of it in terms of a VSWR for information transfer -- the superline is a very tuned circuit with the right loadings. If it wasnt, it would be a much lesser product.

So for many cartridges, some subtle tweaking will be inevitable. But it must be possible to get some value both to naim and the owner out of the unused plugs.

howabout a returns solution where I can send back my unused plugs, and offset them against the cost of a hiline plug loaded with one of the key agreed cartridge loadings? For example I would be very happy to send back my spare plugs and some money to have a hiline plug with 453 ohms for my xv1s

jon

This is not a program we (NaimUSA) will be participating in anytime soon, as we feel that the SuperLine should be sold (re-sold), as shipped from Naim, with a variety of loading plugs suitable for a wide range of cartridges.

There are a lot of cartridges out there–let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt before nickel-and-diming individual parts from the product. The worth of the individual unassembled parts is minor, but the time expended to match parts and construct the plug is best spent at the dealer level, who, with the client, is the final arbiter of the transaction (not us).

If an individual dealer is interested in swapping or modifying the supplied loading plugs to suit an individual client's needs, I see no problem with that, but there is no reason for us to insist or demand that be the case. Please consult your dealer.

In defense of your idea, however, I would like to see a premium loading plug, using Air-DIN housing, into which a final, set value could be mounted. I see greater value in something like this over the long term, and the benefits could be substantial.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
This is not a program we (NaimUSA) will be participating in anytime soon, as we feel that the SuperLine should be sold (re-sold), as shipped from Naim, with a variety of loading plugs suitable for a wide range of cartridges.

There are a lot of cartridges out there–let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt before nickel-and-diming individual parts from the product. The worth of the individual unassembled parts is minor, but the time expended to match parts and construct the plug is best spent at the dealer level, who, with the client, is the final arbiter of the transaction (not us).

If an individual dealer is interested in swapping or modifying the supplied loading plugs to suit an individual client's needs, I see no problem with that, but there is no reason for us to insist or demand that be the case. Please consult your dealer.

Good points David. As you say there is a cost associated with all of this: Parts and quite a lot of time and this is why I feel it is essential to build up a database of suggested loads. This is what I'm trying to find time to contribute too at present. It's a time thing..... but the more people contribute, the easier it becomes.

Sooner or later and if we have a consensus on the most popular loadings, then I for one will be lobbying for the most popular loads to replace what currently is shipped with a new Superline from the factory, thus making life a lot easier for everyone and avoiding the kind of concerns that Richard Olsen has recently raised here.

More to follow soon when I get chance as I've been testing loads around the "K" loading at last.

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:

More to follow soon when I get chance as I've been testing loads around the "K" loading at last.

Peter

Hopefully utilizing an Akiva

Regards
Gregg

The SC2 for my SL arrived today and the vdH Condor sounds best at 220R/1nF. The cartridge designer recommends 200 ohm.

This cart showed some problems with the right channel and it had to be sent for checking. I unpacked another Condor, for which the recommended loading is 500 ohm. Strangely, it also sounds best at 220R/1nF.

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:

Sooner or later and if we have a consensus on the most popular loadings, then I for one will be lobbying for the most popular loads to replace what currently is shipped with a new Superline from the factory, thus making life a lot easier for everyone and avoiding the kind of concerns that Richard Olsen has recently raised here.

....

Thanks Peter,

"Keep on keeping on", I am sure with your commitment we'll get there and it will become a win:win:win for the user, trade and Naim"



Richard

Argh! My Superline and Hicap have arrived and are nicely humming away to themselves in the corner...because I've lent my armtop and XV-1S to the Reading lads.

Patience is a virtue.
Patience is a virtue.
Patience is a virtue.
Patience is a virtue.
Repeat many millions of times...

Hello,

Please advise the 'Supernait' must be switched off before connecting or disconnecting the "load plugs"?

Thanks n regards
Randy

Mute is enough. No need to switch sources as well - oh and it's a Superline...

quote:

Originally posted by munch:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
I agree whole heartedly - and have to admit that I am rather ticked off that NANA had the gumption to charge me $100 for a 560K plug for my Akiva. The 560 loading does nothing else but match exactly my former K Stageline. One would have thought that at the least some of the standard loading pins supplied would have exactly matched up to the current lineup of Stagelines and Prefixes. I did not complain - and quite honestly this is the first that I am mentioning it - it should have been sporting of them to just send it on in without the charge.

Gregg

Gregg,
Just doing a catch up read of this thread and i have just seen your post.
I think it is bang out of order charging you for a plug that should of come with your Superline to work with your cartridge.In the first place.
I know there is no way my dealer would of made me pay for it.If it worked well or not.
At this time its still work in progress, and at the end of the day when its sorted one should be aloud to have the plug that works best with there cartridge for no cost because you have already paid for the Superline to go with said cartridge.
I also know my dealer has been putting in a lot of time on these loadings, Has a new loading for the Akiva.
Munch

Thanks Munch - nice to know that I am not crazy in my opinion

What loading is your dealer working with on the Akiva?

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Mute is enough. No need to switch sources as well - oh and it's a Superline...

Hi munch and Frank,

Thank you for your advice!
Yes, its a Rega P9 + SB1000 > Dynavector TK Rua with a 500R/none > SuperLine > Supernait.
Just order 470R as per suggestion.

Thanks again
Randy

Regarding loadings... for the xv1s, wait till A Certain Experiment happens on tuesday evening. Wont say any more till then, but I cant wait...

jon

quote:

Thanks Munch - nice to know that I am not crazy in my opinion

What loading is your dealer working with on the Akiva?

Munch's and my dealer, Peter, has loaned me 549R, 576R and 590R plugs. I will be pitching them against the 560R as soon as I can.

J

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Why are there not more dealers doing this work?

Too much work and probably their clients are not asking for it.

I'd think that only the Forum participants are interested in the experiments.

The loading options available from the standard plugs are sufficient for most people.

I don't think it makes or breaks Superline's performance, to be honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Kuma: Too much work and probably their clients are not asking for it.

Maybe that's true Kuma, but personally I want to extract the maximum. If one has paid good money for a serious performance product, wouldn't you wan't to know you were giving it (and you) the best chance of getting the very best performance from it? If this information can be fed back for the benefit of everyone who has one, surely this has to be the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Kuma: The loading options available from the standard plugs are sufficient for most people.

Superline owners are not "most people" Kuma when they hear a load that is a better/best match they will want it. Agreed, they probably don't wan't to faf around, they just want the best solution and it's up to the dealer to provide it - even if he looks it up here! Heavens! It's in his interest as well as the customer's surely.



Anyway, following the Summer Sounds event we held at the shop last Tuesday, I had some time to conduct some listening tests on various loadings for the Akiva.

System used LP12/Aro/Geddon and also a full Se spec LP12 through Superline/Supercap/552/500/SL2s

Here briefly are my initial findings on various loadings as compared to my favourite 560R & 1nF combination.

I need to conduct more listening tests when I get time, but at least this gives a flavour of what I found.

As you have read above, I have now sent Julian H the three most interesting plugs for him to test and offer his opinion on.

Kind regards,

Peter

549R & 1nF – A little lacking as compared to the 560R, more laid back, slightly lacking detail and dynamics. It just was not as interesting to listen to! It just seemed to lack a little of the PraT of the 560R combo.

536R & 1nF – A little softer and flatter still. Lacking dynamics, slightly veiled and definitely not as musical to my ear.

523R & 1nf – Confirmed that this is the wrong direction: Softer, flatter, less PraT and less detail.

562R & 1nF – Ok so really nothing in it between this and the 560R & 1nF load, but I was convinced it sounded better. Difficult to put one’s finger on it, maybe just a tiny bit sweeter – I enjoyed it.

576R & 1nF – Ah, this is nice! To me, more musical, better PraT, it was cleaner, sweeter and I think more detailed – there was just more music, easier to follow tunes. My foot was tapping more – a good sign

590R and 1nF – Mmm this seems to be a little sterile, harder, more in one’s face. Still very tuneful and detailed, but just a bit too much for me as compared to the 560R. I wasn’t enjoying listening to it as much. That would be my gut reaction to it. It’s still good though and deserves more evaluation.

So in summary, for me it would be 576R followed by 560R/562R. The 549R and 590R were either side of the mark for me.

I also tried a 2.2nF cap and didn’t like it anywhere as compared to the 1nF with the Akiva, it just seems the more capacitance one has, the more bloaty and blunted the sound becomes. I like the 1nF with the Akiva and certainly prefer it to no cap loading at all. I’ll be trying a 0.5nF (or similar) soon, to see if there is anything to be gained here……………

I hope the above is interesting and useful for Akiva owners and FYI the differences/preferences were the same whether the Naimed or the full Se deck was
used.

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:
Maybe that's true Kuma, but personally I want to extract the maximum. If one has paid good money for a serious performance product, wouldn't you wan't to know you were giving it (and you) the best chance of getting the very best performance from it?

True.

But I also realise the reality.
Your clients are lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by Kuma: The loading Superline owners are not "most people" Kuma when they hear a load that is a better/best match they will want it.

Peter,

I was talking about typical Naim buyer. I would still assume people who want to explore to the max on the loading will be limited in numbers. ( at least I think that's Naim is hoping. Otherwise it can be a logistics nightmare for them )

Besides, as Greg stated, in the US, if the dealer does not provide the custom plug, NANA charges 100$/per for the work.
In order to carry on the experiments, it'll cost an end user several hundred bucks just from the start. ( I wasn't aware of this either )

Ignorance is bliss. ( in my case, anyways )
Of course if I hear something better, I would switch it. But I am reasonably happy with a standard plug thus far.

quote:

Agreed, they probably don't wan't to faf around, they just want the best solution and it's up to the dealer to provide it - even if he looks it up here! Heavens! It's in his interest as well as the customer's surely.

Again.
Ideal vs. reality.

Most dealers I see are short staffed.Rather move on to the next sale rather than tending to the deal they already closed. After all why huff around if they are reasonably happy?

quote:

So in summary, for me it would be 576R followed by 560R. The 549R and 590R were either side of the mark for me.

Thanks for the experiments on the Akiva.
I shall remember the value when the time comes.

Peter - quick question: when you spec the resistance, are you talking actual value of the matched resistor pairs inside the plug or the plug in parallel with the 10k internal?

Same goes with capacitance, I measure about 200pF for a 1M SME cable, coax like ARO uses should be 100pF per meter. So I think it should be worth reducing the capacitance by 200 to 300pF if one wanted to load the cartridge with a total of 1nF as the Prefix does, at which point the 590R might be the more optimum resistance value.

10k internal???

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Why are there not more dealers doing this work?

Too much work and probably their clients are not asking for it.

I'd think that only the Forum participants are interested in the experiments.

The loading options available from the standard plugs are sufficient for most people.

I don't think it makes or breaks Superline's performance, to be honest.

Totally agree!

Brian

ZYX R100 “Fuji”

Now that I’ve gotten my very own super-line, and thanks to my dealer and Dimexs for making up some custom plugs (470R) I’ve come to the following conclusions.

1. The super-line is quite sensitive when it comes to the resistive and capacitance plugs.
2. One can go crazy trying to find that perfect match.

The naim supplied plugs are a very good starting point and for many super-line users (like me) can be very happy using just these ones.

ZYX R-100 series … for me the 500R (no capacitance) is the place to start. I find that it provides the best overall balance from top to bottom of the musical spectrum. I would not recommend going below 470R - voices sound unnatural and symbols (highs) become very annoying – It just doesn’t sound right.

Having fun,
Brian

quote:

Originally posted by JeremyB:
Peter - quick question: when you spec the resistance, are you talking actual value of the matched resistor pairs inside the plug or the plug in parallel with the 10k internal?

I'm talking about the resistors themselves, so for example the 500R plug has a resistance of 500 ohms. As for your capacitance question I think this is best fielded by someone at Naim.

At the end of the day, all I'm doing are my own listening tests and reporting my findings here, as there is a fair amount of interest from members in getting a good loading match with their cartridges. Thus far, the loading plugs I have tested and all of the resistors I have used have been supplied by the factory, as I wouldn't want to use any other resistors just in case they they sound different!

Once there is a consensus here as to which are the best and most popularly used loads, maybe the factory could be persuaded to change the standard pack of load plugs which are currently shipped with a new Superline to something more suitable? Thus saving everyone time, effort and money!

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Cymbiosis:

quote:

Originally posted by JeremyB:
Peter - quick question: when you spec the resistance, are you talking actual value of the matched resistor pairs inside the plug or the plug in parallel with the 10k internal?

I'm talking about the resistors themselves, so for example the 500R plug has a resistance of 500 ohms. .....

Peter

The 500R plug has a resistance of just 510 ohms - according color codes on resistors and my measuring 1/(1/510 + 1/10000 internal) = 500 ohm
The 1K plug has a 1100 ohms resistors
1/(1/1100 + 1/10000 internal) = just 1000 ohm

If you put 500 ohm resistor you will get 476 ohm 1/(1/500 + 1/10000 internal) = 476 ohm

If you put 475 ohm resistor you will get dreaming 453 ohm 1/(1/475 + 1/10000 internal) = 453 ohm

Best regards,
Lyubomir

Just to report what I have told Peter at Cymbiosis. I am currently running the Rua and 453 and had borrowed one of the "centre pin missing" plugs for comparison.

It demonstrated there is much to learn about this plug as the difference was bigger than expected: those thinking about trying air plugs here - well yeah I think it would be a valid experiment.

So onto the pin pulled plug:
The result for me was a slightly less forward sound with more space and air around vocals in particular allowing more intonation in the voice to come through. this was sweet on simple music but on records where you need drive I am afraid it was not as good. I was playing some Harry Connick Jr and where the big band kicks in and there was a lack of drive and not as natural sounding brass to my ears. The brass had lost a little of its bite if you understand what I mean.

In conclusion then, the standard 453 remains best for me in the context of my system and preferences. Fozzzzz