SuperLine Loading Thread.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
After an impromptu listening session when we made a surprise visit to Dr Peter's superline emporium

I would point out that the standard lead was still very good just the HL was that much better.

I must admit to not noycing the differences between a couple of different loading plugs , but Peter changed them very quickly, I think he was just confirming what he already knew.

Howard, Yes sorry, I was mid LP12/Aro set up on Saturday when you dropped in. FYI from memory we had a 202/PSC/200 and Motive 2s in there at the time, with an HC2 dropped in to show the differences the High-Line made for you. Loading tests do take longer.

KR

Peter

JeremyB said:
"After many many hours of listening I found that any plug I try in the resistive or capacitive sockets compromises the Superline and the main effect is to mask TT setup issues. So far it looks like everything the plugs do such as reduce distortion, change timing and reduce pronounced bass etc."

I think I'm leaning the same way. I'm using a Koetsu Urushi with LP12/Armageddon/Aro & 552/300/NBLs on Fraim. Superline is powered by Supercap and connected with the Hi-Line 4-5.

I initially preferred the 220R but after a few days, I'm leaning towards no plugs.

After writing this 10 days ago.....

quote:

So, getting down to the latest experiments, Peter very kindly asked me if I’d like to try some new loading plugs to see how I got on. Of course, I accepted straight away! As I understand it, these are all factory build trials in the values 549R, 576R and 590R.

549+1 – Soft, mechanical, unnatural, compressed lack of separation between instruments.
560+1 – (my previous favoured combination). A little restrained, shut in and congested when compared to the 576+1 combination.
576+1 – the new star for the Akiva? More natural, alive, free, purposeful. The improvement over the 560+1 is not subtle.
590+1 – more detailed than the 576+1, softer, mushy, unconvincing, insipid, a lack of articulation.

I have re-tried the 560+1 combo tonight and instantly it felt inferior. Unfortunately, I will have to had the 576 back to Peter soon, so whats to do? Do I order one or do I get some resistors and experiment myself? I can't live with the 560 now that I know what the 576 does, thats for sure.

One other thing about the Superline though. I have had it since April and it still does not move me like the Prefix used too. There is none of that pumping vitality I used to love! Anyone else experience the same?

Just off to earth my SBL stands.....

Julian

Earlier this evening I handed back the Superline I had borrowed from James (Tomtom). I ended up using it with no plugs which seemed to work as well as any other combination with an AT-OC9MLII.

quote:

One other thing about the Superline though. I have had it since April and it still does not move me like the Prefix used too. There is none of that pumping vitality I used to love! Anyone else experience the same?

Can't say that i really noticed the lack of 'pumping vitality' when i first installed the SL but then again my prefix is on my lp12 and I use my avid for main system so it's hard to compare ... BUT have just added Supercap2 / 4/5 Hi-line to the SL and aside from gains in resolution, timing, soundstage etc. etc. the music does seem to have extraordinary vitality. I'm getting real sense that the dynamic range of the whole system has taken a real step forward, there's a much greater sense of immediacy compared to powering from the 552. I know it's a load of cash but I felt it was worth doing as it really seems to let the SL fly.

quote:

One other thing about the Superline though. I have had it since April and it still does not move me like the Prefix used too. There is none of that pumping vitality I used to love! Anyone else experience the same?

Having gone from Prefix "S" to Stageline "S" to SuperLine (453R + 1nF loading for XX2mkII, then Te Kaitora Rua) on LP12/NAPSA2/Aro + HICAP over the last six months, I have to say that I have never seen a phono stage that brings out the best traits of (and yet, amplifies the distinctions between) cartridges more than the SuperLine.

So much of my experience with the Prefix has been to reinforce a notion that some cartridges make a better match with the classic Naim phono circuit than others–and yet, digging out an older, show-use only Troika from some time back shows how far this new design has come.

An older-sounding but immediate, closed-down in-the-bass sense that I used to get with nearly every "K" Prefix I've used (and, trust me, I've had access to quite a few) vanishes with the SuperLine–and, on the other hand, brings out all of the character that made the Troika such an enjoyable cartridge (at standard 500R + 1nF loading). It is both relaxed and vital, detailed but not "shouty", in a manner that reminds me of the difference between the NAC552 and the NAC52!

Also–and on a purely musical axis, the SuperLine pulls intricate, perhaps delicate rhythmic musical elements off records I've known exceptionally well for years, on a 'table whose character I know well, at a completely different level, even on crap pressings that are clearly third- or fourth-generation masters–it simply renders the musical information through the layers of dynamic or tonal "affect" (with an "A").

It also makes me quite interested in experimenting with (funds permitting) more upscale AND perhaps more economical alternatives (e.g., XV-1s, which had never seemed to provide the performance I'd expected for the $$$ on the old "S" Prefix, apologies to Mark Dunn), differences between which might have been concealed by the character of the older phono circuit.

I'd also be interested in trying some more "coloured" alternatives, to enjoy what they bring to the table without the phono circuit getting hung up by fixed R or C loading–an experience similar to what many have described by running, for example, sub-optimal but enjoyable sources into the NAC552 and being surprised by the results.

David

So are you saying that you agree with me, disagree with me or you maybe sort of understand where I am coming from?

J

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
I'd also be interested in trying some more "coloured" alternatives, to enjoy what they bring to the table without the phono circuit getting hung up by fixed R or C loading–an experience similar to what many have described by running, for example, sub-optimal but enjoyable sources into the NAC552 and being surprised by the results.

David,

What does this mean?

Can one change the loading capsules whilst playing a record (as you can with one ot two transformers)?

An observation on the PREFIX was that it was surely the only phono stage that eliminated the arm lead as far as I recall. This has to be beneficial in not only reducing signal loss but elimination RFI and obviating any potential colourations.

No doubt the Superline, among other stages, is superior to this rather dated but entirely innovative design. However, in this 'close-coupled' respect, the SL is a retrograde step.

I wonder if it can be fitted with a captive lead with the appropriate ARO or SME plug.

quote:

Hi

My experience with the Prefix was that it is improved significantly when it is mounted outboard in an aluminium box using bncs and the ARO arm lead. Maybe it is not a superline but it is a definite improvement.

FF

Hi Frank

That may be something I am going to try in an experiment to compare Prefix with my Superline. Dissatisfaction still continues!

J

Julian,

What's exactly are you not satisfied with the SL?

p.s. just for a giggle, try a different cartridge?

Hi Kuma, nice to hear from you.

Well to be totally frank, I do not know whether the problem is with the new Akiva (can't be after 150ish hours now?), SL, T-Kable or SL>SC Burndy.

The SL makes great hifi dont get me wrong. It's just that it does not have the exuberance, life, verve, energy, clarity or sparkle that I was used to with the Prefix/SC combination.

It's all a bit veiled, flat, listless and "safe".

I wonder if the simplicity of the old circuitry combined with a super power supply really had something, especially with such small signals.

Sorry about all the "words" but they sum up what I'm hearing. I'm listening to FGTH Two Tribes at the moment, bored out of my skull!

A frustrated Julian

ps - on the positive side I'm going to be seeing Peter next week, I'm sure he will have some ideas! I do not have any other cartridges to try and since I now have Peter to set up my deck, I would not trust anyone else, even myself.

quote:

Posted Sat 28 June 2008 15:10 Hide Post
Hi

My experience with the Prefix was that it is improved significantly when it is mounted outboard in an aluminium box using bncs and the ARO arm lead. Maybe it is

This defies logic. I appreciate you're talking about a Linn/Naim combo, and I use mine on Orbe/SME, but how can ADDING an arm lead and more connections IMPROVE the signal?

The Prefix is, I believe, unique in obviating the arm lead, which is often a carrier of R.F.I. and certainly causes (however infinitesimal) losses in signal.

Unfortunately, the Prefix is not user-configurable, and therefore suitable for a smaller range of cartridges. Still sounds good, powered by 552, even with my Koetsu.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
It's all a bit veiled, flat, listless and "safe".

Wow.
That's totally different impression I am getting from my SL.
That's a quite opposite from where I am at.
Just about the only niggle I have when used without an outboard power supply is that it's a bit short on the midrange presence. It's slightly hi-fi-ish and less natural than, say, using a Supercap. But it times extremely well and I find it's the SuperLine's single most strength even compared to other similarly priced phonos.

quote:

I wonder if the simplicity of the old circuitry combined with a super power supply really had something, especially with such small signals.

I've no doubt that a newer preamp might be less prone for distortion.
But even with my 52, it's been one exciting, edge-of-a-seat listening experience.
What a SuperCap bring is that natural expression and palpable presence.

quote:

I'm listening to FGTH Two Tribes at the moment, bored out of my skull!
A frustrated Julian

I can sympathise as I had to tweak a bit to make it work better in my system. ( no more Nait 3R. The SL showed the amp's weakness too much )

There's something to be said about having a wide-open sounding kit in a not-so-well-balanced system like mine. I could get away with it as long as I could, because the system noise floor was high enough.

But the right from the get-go, even without an external PSU, *boring* it isn't.

I am curious of Peter's diagnosis.

Yes, I am looking forward to talking to Peter about it. I am confident there are very, very few more qualified to talk about the SL than he is. He really has put the time in!

I suspect you may not understand my perspective unless you have moved from Prefix/Supercap. The "K" really did gel with the Akiva in a way that my current set does not get anywhere close.

J

ps - Try and get hold of a 576ohm loading plug for using with the Akiva, it is quite a big leap from the 560!

quote:

"It's just that it does not have the exuberance, life, verve, energy, clarity or sparkle that I was used to with the Prefix/SC combination."

My other Lp12 is with Lingo 1/Ekos II/Akiva. I was using this with a Supercapped Prefix K and connected this to the Superline three days ago. Intial impressions were the exactly opposite of Julian's. With the supercapped Superline, it has been a delight going through records and enjoying them in a fresh way.

I only have the standard plugs and ended using 560R plus 1nF.

Julian,

It's possible that you have a very *special* Prefix and a benign sounding SL. ( but, it still should not sound boring )

My one-time only Prefex K experience at home hasn't been great. ( not good enough to move from the Stageline or any other phonos I have )

p.s. I am still on the Miyabi/47. Haven't tried the Akiva yet!

TN

Thankyou for relaying your experience, you are starting to make me worry that mine is not right. Were you using T-Kable and Burndy connections? Also, you must try the 576+1 combo with your Akiva!

Kuma

Even if I had a really good copy of the Prefix I would not imagine it could come close to the SL? I'll have to raid munch's place and get it back if it is that close!

J

Hi Frank

I am sure he will sort it, but how I can't tell. Diagnosis is going to be a major problem with 4 changes at once!

I will be trying your external style Prefix at someime if my SL is pronounced healthy.

J

Julian,

I'm not using the T-cable. I presume you are referring to a new Linn tonearm cable? I'm just using the original tonearm cable that came with the Ekos.

I am using the Burndy with the supercap and superline. However, I'm also using the Hi-Line 4-5.

Not having tried the T-cable, I dont know how much of an influence that has on th superline.

I just feel that with the superline compared to the prefix, I have not lost any of the life, energy, the rhythmic drive but added a great deal of clarity and sparkle to the music.

Hope you sort it out.

Hmm, it could be the T-Kable. You would not be the first to mention it. I did try the HiLine but I found it unsatisfactory, much to the surprise of many. I am beginning to think that I didn't like it because of deficiencies elsewhere....

J

If you are breaking in a tonearm cable at the same time as adding the SuperLine, that may also be a not-insignificant element to your perception that something is not right–laying the blame at the foot of the SuperLine is a bit premature at this point (and this is nothing to speak of a cartridge with 150 hours on it).

Give it some time, or try a different (used?) tonearm lead.

quote:

If you are breaking in a tonearm cable at the same time as adding the SuperLine, that may also be a not-insignificant element to your perception that something is not right–laying the blame at the foot of the SuperLine is a bit premature at this point (and this is nothing to speak of a cartridge with 150 hours on it).

Which is why I said this

"Well to be totally frank, I do not know whether the problem is with the new Akiva (can't be after 150ish hours now?), SL, T-Kable or SL>SC Burndy."

about 3 hours ago.

Even with all these burn in issues I would expect it all to be sounding significantly more enjoyable by now, not just "hifi!"

It could be the T-Kable–as you said a few hours ago. (Or, a less-than-right cartridge, which happens–same exact cart as used with your Prefix?)

Although, it is worth pointing out that the SuperLine in my system took a dive after about a week, then came on song again after a brief time off during a storm.

How about using a Naim arm lead in place of T-cables?

The right cable does help...but then, it should work with a Keeled Linn with an EKOS SE.