Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Time for dinner...Ceasar's salad....best I eat it quick before IB's impending food shortages.

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

If I understand the need to stay, the remainers (remoaners?) [spell check is having issues?] want the dominant EU to continue dishing out the rules for how things are going to be.  ie: unbelievable regulation / control / costs but most importantly - open borders.  Is their anything else here I have missed?  Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

thebigfredc posted:

Time for dinner...Ceasar's salad....best I eat it quick before IB's impending food shortages.

Might not have that if this drought continues and sea levels rise

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

If I understand the need to stay, the remainers (remoaners?) [spell check is having issues?] want the dominant EU to continue dishing out the rules for how things are going to be.  ie: unbelievable regulation / control / costs but most importantly - open borders.  Is their anything else here I have missed?  Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Working in a global business and having worked in and around a number of geographies including APAC it’s easy to see what an insignificant island we are - wake up folks were a shadow of our former selves on the world stage with a teeny weeny manusfacturing base.

Florestan posted:

Don, I realize you believe what you say Not much point in saying things you don't believe especially when there is ample evidence to support that belief. so badly but intellectually, using the word "drivel" after everything doesn't typically work for winning in a sensible conversation.I didn't use use "drivel" after everything. Just the parts that are drivel.

Overwhelming majority vs. pretty even.  This is just talk of those who tend to like to get their own way all the time.  You don't get your way so becoming a bully and putting down your opposition is the only way to go. Your opening post stated "My sense of the situation is that the majority of people in Britain want this."  These words are so far out of touch with the situation that they expose your lack of understanding. I have underscored two words which should help you to understand how this sentence reads. Sense = no facts. "Majority" in this sentence implies virtually all the people, not 50% + 1 as you subsequently claim. This typical of the irrationality and illogicality of many of your posts.

You aren't seriously suggesting that if Britain voted to remain (with a similar margin reversed ie. 'pretty even') you would be here fighting tooth and nail for a second referendum?  Your responses of bollocks and drivel suggest that you would not be.Again, this is pointless drivel.

Somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? You are unsuccessfully trying to put words into my mouth, then claim that I am being hypocritical. This is most politely referred to as drivel.

The only conclusion then is (what follows is NOT the only conclusion. It might be your conclusion, but it's not the only conclusion)  that you are all fighting and acting this way because you are sore losers. First, nobody is fighting. A fair number of good people are clarifying what the main issues are and discussing what might be the best way forward. It isn't just a case of Remain v Hard Brexit. For example, there are c.500 EU Agencies that the UK  and EU need to decide whether we remain members or not and if we remain, on what terms. I have illustrated this several times with EASA, of which Iceland Norway and Switzerland are members. That is your conclusion, but it isn't the case.I really don't know what you are attempting to say here, But you clearly don't have clue about the details of the Brexit negotiations.

Seems only reasonable that someone here sticks their neck outit's not reasonable at all and says what none of you can get yourselves to accept. as I say, you clearly don't have a clue about Brexit.

Get unified and you will have a better outcome than most of you being resistors only to confirm later that it could never work.  Somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps you could outline what your version of "unified" would look like and you never know, we might all decide that YOU should be our next leader.

Don,

I know you started the thread but the red, italics thing is wearing a bit thin now and may be counterproductive in that it may be deterring people from reading your replies rather than attracting folks to them. Its just a thought.

Ray

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

thebigfredc posted:

Don,

I know you started the thread but the red, italics thing is wearing a bit thin now and may be counterproductive in that it may be deterring people from reading your replies rather than attracting folks to them. Its just a thought.

Ray

Thanks for the thought Ray.

Florestan's threads are difficult to follow and I find the best way is to pin my responses directly to the bits that I hope I understood.

You will notice that I don't do this bold/red/italics too often.

Cheers

Don

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

Please explain? 

.sjb

A brief summary of the Brexit situation – as I understand it.

The referendum was in favour of Leaving the EU

Referenda aren’t generally binding, but the Government said it will honour the outcome

The Conservative Government has said we WILL leave

Most of our MPs voted to Remain and consider this would be in our best interest

However, most MPs claim that the principles of democracy demand that we do leave

We could have just stated that we have left (at least I think we could have). We didn’t

We have agreed how much we are willing to pay to settle our obligations to the EU

We would like to reach agreement on a number of other issues before leaving

As an aside, Canada has a new trading agreement with the EU

It seems sensible to me to try to put in place a trading agreement before we leave rather than after we leave.

It also seems sensible before leaving to agree which, if any, EU Agencies we would mutually like to remain part of, the cost and the terms and conditions.

If more time is required, or a transition period is appropriate, so be it

If we can’t reach agreement on all these issues and a practical way forward then

It looks like a No-Deal departure. The Government has said it will allow MPs to have a meaningful vote

Before we leave !

No doubt followed by UK/EU discussion post Brexit in much the same way as Canada.

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

I'm only guessing, but perhaps "The UK" = "GB + NI"        mind you, I don't know, I'm only guessing !

Just goes to show how many of us know so little about our own organisations (me included I hasten to add)

Dave***t posted:

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

What I know or don't know is not for you to opine over.  Those of a higher intellect would clearly understand that I specifically said 'Great Britain' as a euphemism in order to remain polite and not be so direct.

So, please tell me what "millions of people are very concerned about."  If it is not excessive regulation, control, cost, or open borders, what could it be?

Florestan

To put to one side the long-running argument about the democratic validity of the referendum, I should like to pick up your plea to the us in the UK to (for want of a better expression) 'man-up' and get on with Brexit.  As you know, because it is also happening in the USA, there seems to be a political trend to become more insular in outlook. In my view the result of the referendum on EU exit reflected this trend.  However, while the USA, under your current PoTUS, can afford to throw its weight around internationally, confident in the knowledge that it is the strongest economic and military power on the planet, that is very much not the case here in the UK.  

While some of our political leaders behave as if this were the 1920s when the British empire 'ruled', the reality is that today the UK is a much diminished economic power, and one that continues to diminish (not long ago were the fourth largest economy in the world and I believe we have now slipped to sixth).  To detach ourselves from the only economic bloc on the planet that can compete on equal terms with the USA is in my view likely to lead to a further diminution of the UK's influence and economic prospects.  No amount of political rhetoric and posturing by the likes of Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson is going to change that. In my view those 'little-Englander' policitians need to grow up or clear off.  The people of the UK need political leaders who are prepared to tell them what they need to hear, not want they want to hear. 

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

Florestan posted:

Dave***t posted:

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

What I know or don't know is not for you to opine over.  Those of a higher intellect would clearly understand that I specifically said 'Great Britain' as a euphemism in order to remain polite and not be so direct.

So, please tell me what "millions of people are very concerned about."  If it is not excessive regulation, control, cost, or open borders, what could it be?

You really are a pompous ****. Why not butt out of things you don’t understand and stick to promulgating your reactionary views on topics relevant to you. 

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

The full name of The United Kingdom is officially “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. But don’t ask me why.

it does not include the theee associated Crown Dependencies, Guernsey, Jersey and Isle of Man, but it does include the Orkneys, Shetland, Hebrides, Scilly Isles, Anglesey, Isle of Wight etc. The term for the whole lot would be the British Isles, which I have always believed, but do not know for a certainty,  includes the Republic of Ireland.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

The full name of The United Kingdom is officially “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. But don’t ask me why.

it does not include the theee associated Crown Dependencies, Guernsey, Jersey and Isle of Man, but it does include the Orkneys, Shetland, Hebrides, Scilley Isles, Anglesey, Isle of Wight etc. The term for the whole lot would be the British Isles, which I have always believed, but do not know for a certainty,  includes the Republic of Ireland.

The Isle of Dogs? Bet the residents there voted for Brexit 

Florestan is entitled to express his opinion on the forum even if he is from the USA.

Lots of Brits on here express their views on American internal matters such as gun laws for example.

Making the assumption that his nationality means he is ignorant of UK/EU current affairs is presumptuous. He may well be better informed than the millions in the UK who appear on/watch the Jeremy Kyle show rather than go out and do a days work.

Ray

MDS posted:

Florestan

To put to one side the long-running argument about the democratic validity of the referendum, I should like to pick up your plea to the us in the UK to (for want of a better expression) 'man-up' and get on with Brexit.  As you know, because it is also happening in the USA, there seems to be a political trend to become more insular in outlook. In my view the result of the referendum on EU exit reflected this trend.  However, while the USA, under your current PoTUS, can afford to throw its weight around internationally, confident in the knowledge that it is the strongest economic and military power on the planet, that is very much not the case here in the UK.  

While some of our political leaders behave as if this were the 1920s when the British empire 'ruled', the reality is that today the UK is a much diminished economic power, and one that continues to diminish (not long ago were the fourth largest economy in the world and I believe we have now slipped to sixth).  To detach ourselves from the only economic bloc on the planet that can compete on equal terms with the USA is in my view likely to lead to a further diminution of the UK's influence and economic prospects.  No amount of political rhetoric and posturing by the likes of Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson is going to change that. In my view those 'little-Englander' policitians need to grow up or clear off.  The people of the UK need political leaders who are prepared to tell them what they need to hear, not want they want to hear. 

Exactly.

But as you continue to slide down in ranking there is no shortage of petulant words and an insulting arrogance coming from the UK as you criticize the USA.  Somewhat like you might imagine some talking down to someone they consider stupid or slow.  Refer to a post above made against the POTUS or even myself.  Is this necessary?  Is this even sane or respectable to speak like that?  Consider Don A's responses?  So convinced that a big turd is not a turd but that is the end of the story.  The only response he has is ad hominem and vacuous slurs.

So while you all worry about your future and continue to suck on the tit of globalization and liberalism remember your words.  The Obama's and George Soro's of the world don't give a #&^$ about you in the end.  Meanwhile, they destroy whatever was still good in the world.

The only reason you believe this BS about globalization and that it is impossible to survive today without it is only because you believe every last word of propaganda you have been spoon fed all these years.  Yes, sleepwalking with your eyes wide open is more like it.

A few here might be able to see what I am speaking of too but I will be honest here.  As much as the US and UK (thanks to Brexiter's) try it is simply gone past the point of no return.  The remainers will obstruct until they get their way.

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

thebigfredc posted:

 ... the millions in the UK who appear on/watch the Jeremy Kyle show rather than go out and do a days work.

Really?  Personally I have no idea, and it is not a genre that interests me in any way at all, but do millions of British people either appear on, or watch, that instead of working?

Florestan - let me firstly distance myself from the condensation and mud-slinging that unfortunately gets in the way of reasoned argument. That behaviour serves no useful purpose.  

On the substance, I like to think that I'm disinclined to accept at face value the mantra of globalisation and the siren calls that say naked capitalism is the only way to improve the economic prospects of all (though it does work quite well for a few).  

And much as I have doubts about the policies etc of the current US administration (which we are not permitted to discuss on here), that doesn't affect the warmth that I feel for the American people and my belief that the bonds that exist between our two countries should be nurtured and strengthened.  So I pretty much agree with your final comment, even if I don't share your confidence about the UK's ability to reassert its self-direction.

Florestan posted:

 .

 

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

And many others are of the opinion that the UK would be better off pursuing a partnership with our European neighbours, with whom if only because of logistics it is logical to trade, and through which a lot of our imports and exports with the rest of the world travels, and with whom there have been too many wars in the past days of isolation. The key, as in any relationship, whether between countries (including if we were to follow your suggestion and link more directly with the USA), or between individuals, is having the terms right. And I suspect that the majority of people who voted to remain in the EU believe that the terms were not right, with a drifypt over years that is headed in the wrong direction.

So rather than an acrimonious divorce, and then having no option but to try to keep dealing with the estranged partner, it would be infinitely better for the equivalent of relationship counselling and renegotiation of terms and baselines. And there have been suggestions, though I do not know their veracity, that some other member countries are not over keen on the present direction of travel of the EU.

Florestan posted:

 

Exactly.

But as you continue to slide down in ranking there is no shortage of petulant words and an insulting arrogance coming from the UK as you criticize the USA.  Somewhat like you might imagine some talking down to someone they consider stupid or slow.  Refer to a post above made against the POTUS or even myself.  Is this necessary?  Is this even sane or respectable to speak like that?  Consider Don A's responses?  So convinced that a big turd is not a turd but that is the end of the story.  The only response he has is ad hominem and vacuous slurs

My responses were related to your mis-representation of "Majority" and your incorrect presumptions and interpretations that followed.

The word "drivel" was an appropriate way of keeping my response sort and more focused on the main issues.

Clearly, as illustrated in the text above,  you have some terrific grudge against the UK and many of its citizens. What has caused this is not clear to me. But I have noticed this in some of your posts elsewhere on the Forum.

Don, no point in trying to take the high ground now.  Especially, since you believe my posts are 'difficult to follow' and drivel, among other things.  I think it is clear that many here simply start with the presupposition that opposing views are simply not allowed or tolerated.  How you respond to these are clear enough and self evident that you feel no need to show respect to those who don't share your views.

So don't waste your time wondering about who you and others deem as targets.  If you and others represent the UK then you have given ample evidence that supports many questions about why you would partake or condone an attitude towards those who might not share your views on everything.  I'm still hopeful that many here don't really represent the UK as a whole?