Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

I'm only guessing, but perhaps "The UK" = "GB + NI"        mind you, I don't know, I'm only guessing !

Just goes to show how many of us know so little about our own organisations (me included I hasten to add)

Dave***t posted:

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

What I know or don't know is not for you to opine over.  Those of a higher intellect would clearly understand that I specifically said 'Great Britain' as a euphemism in order to remain polite and not be so direct.

So, please tell me what "millions of people are very concerned about."  If it is not excessive regulation, control, cost, or open borders, what could it be?

Florestan

To put to one side the long-running argument about the democratic validity of the referendum, I should like to pick up your plea to the us in the UK to (for want of a better expression) 'man-up' and get on with Brexit.  As you know, because it is also happening in the USA, there seems to be a political trend to become more insular in outlook. In my view the result of the referendum on EU exit reflected this trend.  However, while the USA, under your current PoTUS, can afford to throw its weight around internationally, confident in the knowledge that it is the strongest economic and military power on the planet, that is very much not the case here in the UK.  

While some of our political leaders behave as if this were the 1920s when the British empire 'ruled', the reality is that today the UK is a much diminished economic power, and one that continues to diminish (not long ago were the fourth largest economy in the world and I believe we have now slipped to sixth).  To detach ourselves from the only economic bloc on the planet that can compete on equal terms with the USA is in my view likely to lead to a further diminution of the UK's influence and economic prospects.  No amount of political rhetoric and posturing by the likes of Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson is going to change that. In my view those 'little-Englander' policitians need to grow up or clear off.  The people of the UK need political leaders who are prepared to tell them what they need to hear, not want they want to hear. 

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

Florestan posted:

Dave***t posted:

Florestan posted:

Proterra posted:

Florestan posted:

 

...What Britain needs is some real leadership to move you all forward.

Yes but a lot voted on the immigration issues. Nothing will change on that front at present. So we're they conned by Boris,Nigel etc. Who were so suprised they won they had no policies 

So is this the issue?

Without getting into specifics maybe most of the arguments of why 'the majority' voted to Brexit can probably fit somewhere within this overall rubric?

And a group of people are fighting for a continuation or even more of this?

What happened to Great Britain?

Respectively:

No, it's not.  It's one part of a huge number of hugely complicated issues.

Without getting into specifics, no, you're completely wrong.

No, millions of people are very concerned about something completely different.

It remains the name for the island of which England, Scotland and Wales are parts, and it's probably debatable whether it includes the other smaller islands.  The 'great' part is not an evaluative term in the way you seek to imply.  Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland, which, ironically, is a bit of a statement about how much you understand whereof you speak.

What I know or don't know is not for you to opine over.  Those of a higher intellect would clearly understand that I specifically said 'Great Britain' as a euphemism in order to remain polite and not be so direct.

So, please tell me what "millions of people are very concerned about."  If it is not excessive regulation, control, cost, or open borders, what could it be?

You really are a pompous ****. Why not butt out of things you don’t understand and stick to promulgating your reactionary views on topics relevant to you. 

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

The full name of The United Kingdom is officially “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. But don’t ask me why.

it does not include the theee associated Crown Dependencies, Guernsey, Jersey and Isle of Man, but it does include the Orkneys, Shetland, Hebrides, Scilly Isles, Anglesey, Isle of Wight etc. The term for the whole lot would be the British Isles, which I have always believed, but do not know for a certainty,  includes the Republic of Ireland.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Sloop John B posted:

Dave***t posted:

<

 Great Britain as commonly understood doesn't include Northern Ireland,

 

Please explain? 

.sjb

The full name of The United Kingdom is officially “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. But don’t ask me why.

it does not include the theee associated Crown Dependencies, Guernsey, Jersey and Isle of Man, but it does include the Orkneys, Shetland, Hebrides, Scilley Isles, Anglesey, Isle of Wight etc. The term for the whole lot would be the British Isles, which I have always believed, but do not know for a certainty,  includes the Republic of Ireland.

The Isle of Dogs? Bet the residents there voted for Brexit 

Florestan is entitled to express his opinion on the forum even if he is from the USA.

Lots of Brits on here express their views on American internal matters such as gun laws for example.

Making the assumption that his nationality means he is ignorant of UK/EU current affairs is presumptuous. He may well be better informed than the millions in the UK who appear on/watch the Jeremy Kyle show rather than go out and do a days work.

Ray

MDS posted:

Florestan

To put to one side the long-running argument about the democratic validity of the referendum, I should like to pick up your plea to the us in the UK to (for want of a better expression) 'man-up' and get on with Brexit.  As you know, because it is also happening in the USA, there seems to be a political trend to become more insular in outlook. In my view the result of the referendum on EU exit reflected this trend.  However, while the USA, under your current PoTUS, can afford to throw its weight around internationally, confident in the knowledge that it is the strongest economic and military power on the planet, that is very much not the case here in the UK.  

While some of our political leaders behave as if this were the 1920s when the British empire 'ruled', the reality is that today the UK is a much diminished economic power, and one that continues to diminish (not long ago were the fourth largest economy in the world and I believe we have now slipped to sixth).  To detach ourselves from the only economic bloc on the planet that can compete on equal terms with the USA is in my view likely to lead to a further diminution of the UK's influence and economic prospects.  No amount of political rhetoric and posturing by the likes of Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson is going to change that. In my view those 'little-Englander' policitians need to grow up or clear off.  The people of the UK need political leaders who are prepared to tell them what they need to hear, not want they want to hear. 

Exactly.

But as you continue to slide down in ranking there is no shortage of petulant words and an insulting arrogance coming from the UK as you criticize the USA.  Somewhat like you might imagine some talking down to someone they consider stupid or slow.  Refer to a post above made against the POTUS or even myself.  Is this necessary?  Is this even sane or respectable to speak like that?  Consider Don A's responses?  So convinced that a big turd is not a turd but that is the end of the story.  The only response he has is ad hominem and vacuous slurs.

So while you all worry about your future and continue to suck on the tit of globalization and liberalism remember your words.  The Obama's and George Soro's of the world don't give a #&^$ about you in the end.  Meanwhile, they destroy whatever was still good in the world.

The only reason you believe this BS about globalization and that it is impossible to survive today without it is only because you believe every last word of propaganda you have been spoon fed all these years.  Yes, sleepwalking with your eyes wide open is more like it.

A few here might be able to see what I am speaking of too but I will be honest here.  As much as the US and UK (thanks to Brexiter's) try it is simply gone past the point of no return.  The remainers will obstruct until they get their way.

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

thebigfredc posted:

 ... the millions in the UK who appear on/watch the Jeremy Kyle show rather than go out and do a days work.

Really?  Personally I have no idea, and it is not a genre that interests me in any way at all, but do millions of British people either appear on, or watch, that instead of working?

Florestan - let me firstly distance myself from the condensation and mud-slinging that unfortunately gets in the way of reasoned argument. That behaviour serves no useful purpose.  

On the substance, I like to think that I'm disinclined to accept at face value the mantra of globalisation and the siren calls that say naked capitalism is the only way to improve the economic prospects of all (though it does work quite well for a few).  

And much as I have doubts about the policies etc of the current US administration (which we are not permitted to discuss on here), that doesn't affect the warmth that I feel for the American people and my belief that the bonds that exist between our two countries should be nurtured and strengthened.  So I pretty much agree with your final comment, even if I don't share your confidence about the UK's ability to reassert its self-direction.

Florestan posted:

 .

 

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

And many others are of the opinion that the UK would be better off pursuing a partnership with our European neighbours, with whom if only because of logistics it is logical to trade, and through which a lot of our imports and exports with the rest of the world travels, and with whom there have been too many wars in the past days of isolation. The key, as in any relationship, whether between countries (including if we were to follow your suggestion and link more directly with the USA), or between individuals, is having the terms right. And I suspect that the majority of people who voted to remain in the EU believe that the terms were not right, with a drifypt over years that is headed in the wrong direction.

So rather than an acrimonious divorce, and then having no option but to try to keep dealing with the estranged partner, it would be infinitely better for the equivalent of relationship counselling and renegotiation of terms and baselines. And there have been suggestions, though I do not know their veracity, that some other member countries are not over keen on the present direction of travel of the EU.

Florestan posted:

 

Exactly.

But as you continue to slide down in ranking there is no shortage of petulant words and an insulting arrogance coming from the UK as you criticize the USA.  Somewhat like you might imagine some talking down to someone they consider stupid or slow.  Refer to a post above made against the POTUS or even myself.  Is this necessary?  Is this even sane or respectable to speak like that?  Consider Don A's responses?  So convinced that a big turd is not a turd but that is the end of the story.  The only response he has is ad hominem and vacuous slurs

My responses were related to your mis-representation of "Majority" and your incorrect presumptions and interpretations that followed.

The word "drivel" was an appropriate way of keeping my response sort and more focused on the main issues.

Clearly, as illustrated in the text above,  you have some terrific grudge against the UK and many of its citizens. What has caused this is not clear to me. But I have noticed this in some of your posts elsewhere on the Forum.

Don, no point in trying to take the high ground now.  Especially, since you believe my posts are 'difficult to follow' and drivel, among other things.  I think it is clear that many here simply start with the presupposition that opposing views are simply not allowed or tolerated.  How you respond to these are clear enough and self evident that you feel no need to show respect to those who don't share your views.

So don't waste your time wondering about who you and others deem as targets.  If you and others represent the UK then you have given ample evidence that supports many questions about why you would partake or condone an attitude towards those who might not share your views on everything.  I'm still hopeful that many here don't really represent the UK as a whole?

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

When those opinions include prejudice against people "not like them", then yeah, I'm intolerant, I'll call them out on it. You just keep doubling down on your racism. I've suggested this to you before. Think long and hard about the groups of people you've decided to hate or fear. What do they have in common? What does that imply about you?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Florestan posted:

 .

 

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

And many others are of the opinion that the UK would be better off pursuing a partnership with our European neighbours, with whom if only because of logistics it is logical to trade, and through which a lot of our imports and exports with the rest of the world travels, and with whom there have been too many wars in the past days of isolation. The key, as in any relationship, whether between countries (including if we were to follow your suggestion and link more directly with the USA), or between individuals, is having the terms right. And I suspect that the majority of people who voted to remain in the EU believe that the terms were not right, with a drifypt over years that is headed in the wrong direction.

So rather than an acrimonious divorce, and then having no option but to try to keep dealing with the estranged partner, it would be infinitely better for the equivalent of relationship counselling and renegotiation of terms and baselines. And there have been suggestions, though I do not know their veracity, that some other member countries are not over keen on the present direction of travel of the EU.

What you have to come to terms with is that you typically only form or keep relationships with those who share your values.  

While EU continues to want to do business with Iran, Iran continues to shout death to the big (USA) and little (Israel) satan.  Europe (and Britain?) have lost their way if they are not clear eyed enough about this.  There is no way to morally support the EU on this.  

Finally, we have some leadership in this world that is saying, enough is enough.  You can't build nuclear weapons to threaten others and you can't continue with a terrorism policy and simply bad behaviour and as we all look the other way like nothing is wrong.  Offensive to some but others realize that good actors around the world need to band together and fight the bad actors and push for change.

I say this because it is simply clear to me now that countries need to make choices.  No one can reconcile with someone else if your values are polar opposite of each other.  True in marriage and true in politics or between countries.

Moving away from geopolitical issues and back to the ground level, it is possible that many people in Britain have finally woken up and see that bigger government and control of the people is not the best way forward.  You tried it and many people see that along with this comes many more ugly problems.

UK, if you want some freedom back, maybe now is your chance?  

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

When those opinions include prejudice against people "not like them", then yeah, I'm intolerant, I'll call them out on it. You just keep doubling down on your racism. I've suggested this to you before. Think long and hard about the groups of people you've decided to hate or fear. What do they have in common? What does that imply about you?

Winky, you don't know me and you are pretty creative to bend my post to fit in your little mold.

Are you saying that I am a bigot plus a racist simply for making a general comment regarding 'open borders?'

Florestan you might as well be banging your head against a brick wall mate.

It can only be a so called "hard Brexit". Why does anyone expect the EU to do us any favours? 

The way i see it is as article 50 has been triggered,  that's it, we're off. If we now turn round and say we've changed our mind and want to forget the whole thing they will totally screw the lot of us. 

It's about time everyone actually bucks their ideas up and decide to get on with it whether they like it or not. If this is a sinking ship at least try and help with the bailing rather than sit there complaining.

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

When those opinions include prejudice against people "not like them", then yeah, I'm intolerant, I'll call them out on it. You just keep doubling down on your racism. I've suggested this to you before. Think long and hard about the groups of people you've decided to hate or fear. What do they have in common? What does that imply about you?

Racism? I see no racism. No need to take that line Winky

Florestan posted:

Don, no point in trying to take the high ground now.  Especially, since you believe my posts are 'difficult to follow' and drivel, among other things.  I think it is clear that many here simply start with the presupposition that opposing views are simply not allowed or tolerated.  How you respond to these are clear enough and self evident that you feel no need to show respect to those who don't share your views.

So don't waste your time wondering about who you and others deem as targets.  If you and others represent the UK then you have given ample evidence that supports many questions about why you would partake or condone an attitude towards those who might not share your views on everything.  I'm still hopeful that many here don't really represent the UK as a whole?

"Trying to take the high ground" - don't need to, I've already got it.

Your posts are often so badly written, they are unbelievably difficult to follow. Others have commented as well as myself. However, I certainly do try.

Opposing views have been a feature of this and many other threads. They are both allowed and tolerated, and far more importantly, usually well respected.

The last sentence of your first paragraph is disingenuous to say the least. I invite you to re-read all 4,445 replies to this thread before you formulate your revised assessment.

As for your second paragraph, you've lost me ! Perhaps you would elaborate ?

Drewy posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

So is this the issue?

....but most importantly - open borders....

Said like a true bigot. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Ah, winkyincanada, when an intelligent response is called for you always show up and let everyone down.

Let's see:

Bigot = a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

Looks like you were finally calling yourself out for what you are?

When those opinions include prejudice against people "not like them", then yeah, I'm intolerant, I'll call them out on it. You just keep doubling down on your racism. I've suggested this to you before. Think long and hard about the groups of people you've decided to hate or fear. What do they have in common? What does that imply about you?

Racism? I see no racism. No need to take that line Winky

I'm hearing the dog-whistle loud and clear. It runs through all of the threads where he/she tells us how it should be. "Racism" might be too specific. He/she seems to hate/fear "foreigners" and people who are different in general. Might be race, culture, religion, sexual identity or orientation. Whatever. Florestan seems to hate and fear them all. I'll get banned for this, but I've honestly had enough of his small-minded bigoted bu!!$h!+. I'm out of here.

It looks like Winky has gone. If only it was that easy to get rid of Huge and Don. Anyway, at least Winky will have more time on his hands to drink shit Canadian beer and practice his curling.

Just joking Don, I always enjoy your pilot/aircrew/aviation views on subjects.

thebigfredc posted:

Just joking Don, I always enjoy your pilot/aircrew/aviation views on subjects.

It's no joking matter fred, I'm off back to Canada in a few weeks..........and your comment about shit Canadian beer has got early shivers down my spine

Mind you, the quality of wine in the Okanagan has improved over these past 20 years remarkably. Swings and roundabouts I guess. We'll give the beer a miss and concentrate on the wine !

Florestan posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Florestan posted:

 .

 

The UK would be better off in looking to restore a stronger partnership with the US though, in my opinion, and start reasserting some independence and self-direction again.

And many others are of the opinion that the UK would be better off pursuing a partnership with our European neighbours, with whom if only because of logistics it is logical to trade, and through which a lot of our imports and exports with the rest of the world travels, and with whom there have been too many wars in the past days of isolation. The key, as in any relationship, whether between countries (including if we were to follow your suggestion and link more directly with the USA), or between individuals, is having the terms right. And I suspect that the majority of people who voted to remain in the EU believe that the terms were not right, with a drifypt over years that is headed in the wrong direction.

So rather than an acrimonious divorce, and then having no option but to try to keep dealing with the estranged partner, it would be infinitely better for the equivalent of relationship counselling and renegotiation of terms and baselines. And there have been suggestions, though I do not know their veracity, that some other member countries are not over keen on the present direction of travel of the EU.

What you have to come to terms with is that you typically only form or keep relationships with those who share your values.  

While EU continues to want to do business with Iran, Iran continues to shout death to the big (USA) and little (Israel) satan.  Europe (and Britain?) have lost their way if they are not clear eyed enough about this.  There is no way to morally support the EU on this.  

Finally, we have some leadership in this world that is saying, enough is enough.  You can't build nuclear weapons to threaten others and you can't continue with a terrorism policy and simply bad behaviour and as we all look the other way like nothing is wrong.  Offensive to some but others realize that good actors around the world need to band together and fight the bad actors and push for change.

I say this because it is simply clear to me now that countries need to make choices.  No one can reconcile with someone else if your values are polar opposite of each other.  True in marriage and true in politics or between countries.

Moving away from geopolitical issues and back to the ground level, it is possible that many people in Britain have finally woken up and see that bigger government and control of the people is not the best way forward.  You tried it and many people see that along with this comes many more ugly problems.

UK, if you want some freedom back, maybe now is your chance?  

Contrary to your apparent conclusion, I don’t think that what rhe British public want is the ‘polar opposite’ of what the EU and its member countries want, and I personally do not think the differences are irreconcilable. Had the UK had strong leadership and good negotiating skills I believe it was possible to effect such change as to make membership clearly beneficial to anyone reading past whatever is the latest media hype (tha layyer omnipresent with any situation).

Unfortunately the previos Prime Minister who set out to do that was an uncharismatic wimp and lacked any leadership or negotiating skills, and instead of strong negotiation tried to threaten the EU with taking a referendum on UK leaving if they didn’t concede, which backfired because all he had done was make people wish to kick him by voting against his recommendation to remain.

With regard to what the UK should do now, I have made my point several times, and contrary to some people’s misrepresentation I have never suggested a re-run of the original vote, but a confirmatiry referendum that actually gives real power to the process if it says yes, go through with it we are content with everything that means, now we know - or otherwise if that is not the case puts on the brakes. And that indeed would be the democratic thing to do.