Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I have been warning you how awful this situation will become. Politics as was in the U.K. is on the verge of at least a nervous breakdown if not a terminal seizure. 

Well the “nervous breakdown” is caused when the instinct to do what is best for the economy and the country is contradicted by the desire to keep their job by pandering to the populist attitude caused by holding a badly planned referendum.  The second story of I, Robot should illustrate the situation well!

Once Parliament  openly  showed its complete contempt for the British people then all bets fell off the table as to what would happen next, and as I said earlier, touching Article 50 would be more dangerous than handling novichok with bare hands.

Parliament’s job isn’t to pander to the desires of the population though, parliament’s job is to take decisions in the best interest of the country.  It’s a lack of respect for democracy which prevents this.

The tyranny of the majority is the situation the U.K. is in at the moment, NOT a democratic process.

Unfortunately from your )safe space this maybe your perception. To the lowly masses it looks like treason and certainly smells like treason, ergo we, the lowly ones, are assuming it is, err, treason. Your tyranny rests within the walls of Westminster so look no further for a resolution to this situation as, despite your best efforts, the populist genie ain’t going back in it’s bottle. 

I don't perceive that those holding Remainer views here are any less loyal to Queen and country than you. This isn't a matter of linguistic pedantry; use of such charged terms as "treason" will only stoke resentments and make it harder for the country to unite behind a future direction, and increase the likelihood of blood on the streets. This is not fanciful - remember MP Jo Cox? References to "safe spaces" from the "lowly masses" seems a thinly veiled threat that this is what you would wish to see happen should the debate not go in the direction you would want. I hope I've misread your intentions. 

This forum thread has provided a rare opportunity for a proponents of often very differing views to share in a (relatively) civilised way their beliefs and perceptions about Brexit - but I fear that it will go the way of the Trump thread if the temperature of the discussion and the language used does not remain within acceptable bounds.

That's obviously Richard's decision as moderator, not mine, but I for one would be sorry to thread pulled. 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

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What you want, IB. What you really, really want, is as many Referendums as you can get to change the result of 2016. Implementing the 2016 Referendum at all is of course ridiculous from your own anti-democratic perspective. 

And how, exactly, is it in ANY WAY undemocratic calling for confirmation when the facts are known? What I want isn’t material  - I will accept with grace a confirmation now that so much more is known than 2 years ago, even if that is against my personal belief  of what I think is best for the UK. Sadly, it seems you, and at least some others, would not accept that democratic process, thus demonstrating your false claim that leaving, regardless of what that means in practice, is the domonstrated democratic will of the people. It isn’t - all it was was a declaration by a (small) majority of voter that their preference was to leave, inevitably based on the infotmation available at that time, two years ago.

Steady IB, or you will go off as I hope the Trump blimp will of it gets rightly punctured. You had a democratic vote, you lost, get over it. A small majority equated to 17.4 million votes, amazing how words can be twisted, eh! 

There you go again - others will read and understand just who is interested in democracy and who isn’t - and  what any individual, you or me, wants or wanted, is irrelevant when it is what is right for the country that matters, and ashas been pointed out before, it wasn’t a game, there was no win or lose, but an indication that of the people that voted 51 % or whatever is was indicated a preference to leave rather than remain in the EU, on the basis of what they understood at the time to be the pros and cons of each.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

.

 

What you want, IB. What you really, really want, is as many Referendums as you can get to change the result of 2016. Implementing the 2016 Referendum at all is of course ridiculous from your own anti-democratic perspective. 

And how, exactly, is it in ANY WAY undemocratic calling for confirmation when the facts are known? What I want isn’t material  - I will accept with grace a confirmation now that so much more is known than 2 years ago, even if that is against my personal belief  of what I think is best for the UK. Sadly, it seems you, and at least some others, would not accept that democratic process, thus demonstrating your false claim that leaving, regardless of what that means in practice, is the domonstrated democratic will of the people. It isn’t - all it was was a declaration by a (small) majority of voter that their preference was to leave, inevitably based on the infotmation available at that time, two years ago.

Steady IB, or you will go off as I hope the Trump blimp will of it gets rightly punctured. You had a democratic vote, you lost, get over it. A small majority equated to 17.4 million votes, amazing how words can be twisted, eh! 

There you go again - others will read and understand just who is interested in democracy and who isn’t - and  what any individual, you or me, wants or wanted, is irrelevant when it is what is right for the country that matters, and ashas been pointed out before, it wasn’t a game, there was no win or lose, but an indication that of the people that voted 51 % or whatever is was indicated a preference to leave rather than remain in the EU, on the basis of what they understood at the time to be the pros and cons of each.

The Referendum was a definitive decision and not an ‘indication’ and Cameron and the whole Remain group made it perfectly clear that it would result in full scale Brexit.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

... the populist genie ain’t going back in it’s bottle. 

My Dear RR,

Unfortunately the populist genie was only given one brief outing, told a lot of false facts (and some dubious opinions); and then after it has spoken, it was was unceremoniously shoved back into it's bottle.

Now those who espouse populism are afraid to let it out once more, in case now that it knows the truth, it will change it's mind!

And that is your view from the Palace of Versailles?

For goodness sake, Resurrection. 

By the substance of your posts you would appear to be a pretty well off individual, and one who admits to admiring self made multi millionaires such as Rees-Mogg, and yet you appear to believe that you are part of a 'populist' movement that has the interest of the 'average citizen' at heart, and that those of us who argue against your ramblings (and who are in all probability significantly less well of than you) are part of a so called 'Liberal Elite'. 

Don't you think that this presents some pretty blatant and puzzling contradictions? I suspect you are much more worthy of the accolade 'Elite' than most of us on this forum.    

".........there is a metropolitan ‘elite’, well represented here in this specific debate, who inhabit London , have control the levers of power and have no interest, nay, contempt for the day to day concerns of the lives of these average citizens outside the Westminster bubble".

And which of us on this forum do you believe belongs to this fictional 'metropolitan elite'? I certainly don't inhabit London, nor do I control the levers of power and I suspect my views have very much more in common with those of the average citizen outside the Westminster bubble than do yours. We both live in Scotland. Do you think that your views hold much sway here, or does that not matter because in your view Scotland is (for the time being at least) simply a 'region' within the UK?

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

... the populist genie ain’t going back in it’s bottle. 

My Dear RR,

Unfortunately the populist genie was only given one brief outing, told a lot of false facts (and some dubious opinions); and then after it has spoken, it was was unceremoniously shoved back into it's bottle.

Now those who espouse populism are afraid to let it out once more, in case now that it knows the truth, it will change it's mind!

And that is your view from the Palace of Versailles?

For goodness sake, Resurrection. 

By the substance of your posts you would appear to be a pretty well off individual, and one who admits to admiring self made multi millionaires such as Rees-Mogg, and yet you appear to believe that you are part of a 'populist' movement that has the interest of the 'average citizen' at heart, and that those of us who argue against your ramblings (and who are in all probability significantly less well of than you) are part of a so called 'Liberal Elite'. 

Don't you think that this presents some pretty blatant and puzzling contradictions? I suspect you are much more worthy of the accolade 'Elite' than most of us on this forum.    

".........there is a metropolitan ‘elite’, well represented here in this specific debate, who inhabit London , have control the levers of power and have no interest, nay, contempt for the day to day concerns of the lives of these average citizens outside the Westminster bubble".

And which of us on this forum do you believe belongs to this fictional 'metropolitan elite'? I certainly don't inhabit London, nor do I control the levers of power and I suspect my views have very much more in common with those of the average citizen outside the Westminster bubble than do yours. We both live in Scotland. Do you think that your views hold much sway here, or does that not matter because in your view Scotland is (for the time being at least) simply a 'region' within the UK?

 

Hmack, My admiration for JRM is based on his calm, rational reasoning which admittedly resonates with my opinions but had initially assumed, until I found out later, that he was the well heeled son via his privileged background being the son of William Rees-Mogg. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that he was very much a self made millionaire. 

I use words like liberal and metropolitan elite to highlight those who I truly despise. Those that whip up faux moral justification in order to allow a minority self serving liberal elite to deride and ignore the wishes of millions of people based on their self defined moral values. Those moral values can be very exclusive ie exclusive to only those that agree with them.

As to being rich, you are quite wrong. Myself and my wife have pensions that keep us more than comfortable and I do have savings which are mainly investments that keep me amused on the side. Investments do go down as well as up. 

The fact that you live in Scotland is neither here or there. Politics north of the border is as bad if not worse than Westminster; in fact under the SNP Scotland is fast becoming a basket case, but that deserves a thread of its own. I am, by the way, 100% Scottish.

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

 

I don't understand how there isn't overwhelming political support for at least a do-over. A confirmatory referendum, given all that has now come to light. That would save "face" and would still ultimately result in the right outcome, which is obviously (to me, at least) to stay in the EU.

Ah, words taken and bandied about from page one of the elite progressive pundit's handbook.  Also, the same childish, twisted, predictable approach taken for any other recent political event of the century.

That is, why don't you just be honest and come out with the truth the first time without embellishing this sentiment.  You really mean, "It is only Democracy, if WE agree with the outcome."  And the WE obviously doesn't include the undesirable, deplorable but hard working people who don't live in or around London, obviously.  No, they don't have a say.  They are too stupid to know better. 

It's also quite funny that in suggesting another go at this you couldn't even concede what you would do if the result is the same or even stronger in favour of cutting ties with a Kleptocracy?

So for now, wouldn't it be safer to ask for best two out of three referendums?  Risky, I'd say.  Better go for best five out of nine and spread it out a few more years giving more time to import the votes you need to get the "democratic" outcome you insist on.

You may not be aware that the 'undesirable deplorable' people resident in Scotland voted heavily in favour of remaining in the EU. Northern Ireland also voted to remain. 

So, it's hardly a case of London vs the rest of the UK as you may like to categorize it. 

 

It's also quite funny that in suggesting another go at this you couldn't even concede what you would do if the result is the same or even stronger in favour of cutting ties with a Kleptocracy?

So for now, wouldn't it be safer to ask for best two out of three referendums?  Risky, I'd say.  Better go for best five out of nine and spread it out a few more years giving more time to import the votes you need to get the "democratic" outcome you insist on.

You may not be aware that the 'undesirable deplorable' people resident in Scotland voted heavily in favour of remaining in the EU. Northern Ireland also voted to remain. 

So, it's hardly a case of London vs the rest of the UK as you may like to categorize it. 

Anyone else get the feeling that this thread is about to explode due to its length if not the incendiary material? 

Anyway Hmack, we are all probably aware by now about the geographic breakdown of Leave and Remain. Targeting London and Westminster is a means of focusing our ire, or in native parlance, 'our wrath tae keep it warm". For God's sake do not deviate me towards Scotland and the SNP as  like Scottie on Enterprise, I'll no be able to tak' any more'.

The UK Referendum voted to Leave on a binary choice with no middle way. This thread would have terminated two years ago if Remain had won as we would never have been given the licence to behave in the utterly disgraceful fashion that the Remainers have, and I for one would have shrugged and carried on until future common sense prevailed or the EU collapsed, whichever came first.

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

There you go again - others will read and understand just who is interested in democracy and who isn’t - and  what any individual, you or me, wants or wanted, is irrelevant when it is what is right for the country that matters, and ashas been pointed out before, it wasn’t a game, there was no win or lose, but an indication that of the people that voted 51 % or whatever is was indicated a preference to leave rather than remain in the EU, on the basis of what they understood at the time to be the pros and cons of each.

The Referendum was a definitive decision and not an ‘indication’ and Cameron and the whole Remain group made it perfectly clear that it would result in full scale Brexit.

Insofar as a 51 something percent of people is definitive, you ate right on the first point - at that time and with the information available to people at the time (and when ideas  of ‘hard’ and ‘soft’ Brexit weren’t even concepts let alone clear in detail)

On the second point, did Cameron say before the referendum that a yes vote would mean full scale Brexit? And in the unlikely event that he did, I know he didn’t tell people what full scale Brexit would actually entail, how very much different it would be from the imaginings presented by the Brexit campain at the time.

Curious, isn’t it, that you don’t have a single valid argument as to why a confirmatory referendum isn’t a wise and appropriate true democratic step, instead just trotting out again and again things like ‘we won, you lost’, or how 51% of a vote on whether people preferred to leave the EU or remain in it is more democratic than asking for confirmation that’s what they really want when the full picture is known.

In all this, all you have actually succeeded in doing is reinforcing display of own evident disdain for democracy, your own self interest in the outcome being leave regardless of consequence, and indeed displaying your own certain belief that it would go against your desire if a confirmation were to be undertaken - otherwise wouldn’t it actually be a good thing to give those making the final move the certain knowledge the people are with them, and close down vast numbers of dissenters currently arguing it is wrong, and indeed put an effective end to most of the content of this thread? Of course, you’d lose your platform to argue, but I’m sure you could find another - source first maybe?

It seems to me that the Remainders (and the people who have been cheated into the idea that Brexit are good) are really the victims - Politicians like Johnson resigning from the cabinet, running away from his responsibility, rich Brexiteers such as  Rees-Mogg, John Redwood, Lawson and Ashcroft have all been moving their own wealths into EU jurisdictions.

Frank Yang posted:

It seems to me that the Remainders are really the victims....

Not this remainer. Please don't pin that one on me.

Frank Yang posted:

It seems to me that the Remainders (and the people who have been cheated into the idea that Brexit are good) are really the victims - Politicians like Johnson resigning from the cabinet, running away from his responsibility, rich Brexiteers such as  Rees-Mogg, John Redwood, Lawson and Ashcroft have all been moving their own wealths into EU jurisdictions.

I’d actually say that’s remarkably accurate - a very small proportion of leavers want to leave for the same reasons that the forces behind Brexit want to leave.

The rest of us are basically pawns or collateral damage.

Just read old news in the Telegraph that he who's name must not be mentioned, wants to use the UK-US trade negotiations to force the NHS to pay much more for drugs. “America will not be cheated any longer, and especially will not be cheated by foreign countries.”

This got me thinking: Next he will dictate Britain to get rid of the NHS altogether, because a tax financed insurance system has an "unfair" advantage over private American insurance companies, which of course have to be admitted to the British market. Even if it's not in the original trade agreement: you know by now how he respects written paper. And because Britain has no other big partner and is in dire need of a trade agreement, it will have to accept all terms. And slowly, slowly, Britain will be transformed into a US state with different social welfare, health insurance etc. Not necessarily worse but different.

IMO, regarding social welfare, Britain thinks much more European than American. I doubt that such a scenario would be in the interest of the British citizens.

And still people think that the EU is Britain's worst enemy? Good luck!

jfritzen posted:

This got me thinking: Next he will dictate Britain to get rid of the NHS altogether, because a tax financed insurance system has an "unfair" advantage over private American insurance companies, which of course have to be admitted to the British market. 

Don’t worry about Trump and the NHS... the recently appointed Heath and Social Care Secretary has received tens of thousands from the chairman of a free market think tank who’s clear policy is to abolish the NHS.

Eloise posted:

jfritzen posted:

This got me thinking: Next he will dictate Britain to get rid of the NHS altogether, because a tax financed insurance system has an "unfair" advantage over private American insurance companies, which of course have to be admitted to the British market. 

Don’t worry about Trump and the NHS... the recently appointed Heath and Social Care Secretary has received tens of thousands from the chairman of a free market think tank who’s clear policy is to abolish the NHS.

...and his precedecessor Hunt co-wrote a book about privatising the NHS from memory.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/...ocracy-a6865306.html

Dave***t posted:

Frank Yang posted:

It seems to me that the Remainders (and the people who have been cheated into the idea that Brexit are good) are really the victims - Politicians like Johnson resigning from the cabinet, running away from his responsibility, rich Brexiteers such as  Rees-Mogg, John Redwood, Lawson and Ashcroft have all been moving their own wealths into EU jurisdictions.

I’d actually say that’s remarkably accurate - a very small proportion of leavers want to leave for the same reasons that the forces behind Brexit want to leave.

The rest of us are basically pawns or collateral damage.

Yep, good luck to you all. Now, somebody has to deal with this mess, and the UK government has to be governed...

Alley Cat posted:

...and his precedecessor Hunt co-wrote a book about privatising the NHS from memory.....

Quite impressive writing a whole book from memory!

Having seen a bit more of the 'deal' proposed by the PM at Chequers I'm now thinking that the hard Brexiteers are right in the sense that:

- this weakens the UK's position making us 'rule-takers' from Brussels with no right to influence those rules

- it proposes a lot of additional red-tape (e.g. to work out where imported goods are going and to calculate whose duty rates apply) which will add costs to government and to business 

The Brexiteers' 'dream' of taking back control looks dead.  Of course, this is entirely of the Brexiteers' own making for seducing many voters with idealistic but unrealistic ambitions so I have no sympathy for Johnson, Gove, JR-M, Farage & co but it seems a heavy price for the UK to pay.  

So, assuming the rest of the EU doesn't reject the PM's proposal, we now seem to be facing a choice between the PM's deal which seems to offer no new material benefits to the UK while losing our voice over rules we will have to follow, or leaving the EU with no deal next March, which still looks awful for an unprepared business and the economy. So the PM's proposal looks to be the lesser of the two evils.  We Remainers will continue to say that staying in the EU still looks better than what is on offer but surely Leavers won't be satisfied with this either?  Those who propose another referendum, e.g. a confirmatory one of the negotiated deal, are regularly rebutted by the argument that 'the people have spoken'.  Hitherto that argument has been played out between disappointed Remainers who propose another referendum and Leavers who say the one we had in 2016 was decisive. However I'm now wondering how Leavers' voices will be heard if they think 'we voted to leave, but this deal doesn't deliver it!'.  Can we really be facing an outcome where both sides are unhappy? Is that democracy working?

Resurrection posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

What's more likely- TMs resignation or being ousted out by the end of today ?

May won’t  resign. She epitomes far too much the arrogant, self belief of the liberal political elite. She is way beyond anything other than messianic self belief dressed up in kitten heels. If as Home Secretary she had moderated her views on mass immigration, multiculturalism and a wide open doors policy, which she could have done tacitly under EU rules, and had complete control over outside of the EU, then we would not be on page whatever of this extended discourse. 

In my opinion she is worse than Blair in terms of having a God .....

Breaking the barrister's rule of never asking a question for which you do not know the answer -

Did you vote Conservative (lead by May) at the last election?

Will of the people and so on.

MDS posted:

Having seen a bit more of the 'deal' proposed by the PM at Chequers I'm now thinking that the hard Brexiteers are right in the sense that:

- this weakens the UK's position making us 'rule-takers' from Brussels with no right to influence those rules

- it proposes a lot of additional red-tape (e.g. to work out where imported goods are going and to calculate whose duty rates apply) which will add costs to government and to business 

The Brexiteers' 'dream' of taking back control looks dead.  Of course, this is entirely of the Brexiteers' own making for seducing many voters with idealistic but unrealistic ambitions so I have no sympathy for Johnson, Gove, JR-M, Farage & co but it seems a heavy price for the UK to pay.  

So, assuming the rest of the EU doesn't reject the PM's proposal, we now seem to be facing a choice between the PM's deal which seems to offer no new material benefits to the UK while losing our voice over rules we will have to follow, or leaving the EU with no deal next March, which still looks awful for an unprepared business and the economy. So the PM's proposal looks to be the lesser of the two evils.  We Remainers will continue to say that staying in the EU still looks better than what is on offer but surely Leavers won't be satisfied with this either?  Those who propose another referendum, e.g. a confirmatory one of the negotiated deal, are regularly rebutted by the argument that 'the people have spoken'.  Hitherto that argument has been played out between disappointed Remainers who propose another referendum and Leavers who say the one we had in 2016 was decisive. However I'm now wondering how Leavers' voices will be heard if they think 'we voted to leave, but this deal doesn't deliver it!'.  Can we really be facing an outcome where both sides are unhappy? Is that democracy working?

 

Looks like the Chequers deal is a dead duck anyway.

I know that many of you find my own postings tiresome, contrary to your own opinions and would like me to simply go away, so as i am feeling over constrained by unnecessary moderation, your wishes may be fulfilled. I have not, as Resurrection, used any language that has not been used by my opponents against myself, nor have I written anything that is overtly racist, xenophobic or used sexist or foul language, but too many of my posts are spiked.

This is, after all. a BB for Naim owning music lovers and perhaps unconstrained free speech should not be expected as it could result in Naim's own name being sullied. I can easily accept that and as easily accept being permanently canned, but having one hand tied behind my back in a padded cell with many opposing combatants is losing its allure. 

Adam, I'd be surprised if Resurrection would vote for anyone as left wing as the conservatives!

The media are loving the turmoil in the Tory party over the last week or so which is fair enough. 

I wish they had spent more time on the precise terms of the deal proposed by the PM though which to me at least seems a decent effort at implementing our departure from the EU without hurting the economy.  Sadly,  I haven't seen many lines on the forum devoted to the content of the document  - just the regular sentiments from the usual axe grinders.

I think the deal proposed by May more or less represents the essence of votes cast in the referendum too which is no mean feat.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

The media are loving the turmoil in the Tory party over the last week or so which is fair enough. 

I wish they had spent more time on the precise terms of the deal proposed by the PM though which to me at least seems a decent effort at implementing our departure from the EU without hurting the economy.  Sadly,  I haven't seen many lines on the forum devoted to the content of the document  - just the regular sentiments from the usual axe grinders.

I think the deal proposed by May more or less represents the essence of votes cast in the referendum too which is no mean feat.

Ray

Agreed.

I haven't had time this week to search for the initial details nor the amendments from JR-M and Co. And, as you say, the Press just don't seem to provide that information up front. I also admit i'm somewhat biased against that BBC presenter, Laura Kunesberg. I don't quite know what it is, but she always seems to be sneering at the difficulties of the Gov, but never outlines their proposals clearly.

TM has the support of her Cabinet......well, the current Cabinet

She has the support of most of her Conservative MPs

She has the luke-warm support of about half of Parliament

She has yet to get the support of EU Ministers

She has to persuade Mr Barnier to support her proposals (and he has indicated that important parts are unacceptable)

And she has made it clear that SHE is in charge and that chap who replaced DD (what's his name?) is akin to a poodle.

She has no idea how many of the UK electorate support her proposals but seems disinclined to ask them.

Happy Holidays !!

TM certainly deserves a break walking in the hills with her other half. The lady certainly has resilience.

That said, the position she will return to after her hols certainly doesn't look like it's going to be any easier.  The noises coming out of the EU strongly suggest that the Chequers proposed deal isn't going to fly, at least in relation to this dual tariff and customs duty collection idea.  From a practical view it looks very hard to make work, and it pretty much invites the EU to contract-out to a non-member the enforcement of a bit of its external frontier, which always looked a big ask on principle. And then of course, the UK is wanting to cherry-pick one of the four freedoms.  

What are the next steps, I wonder? 

Based on recent media reports, (fake news ?) Mrs May was giving the Windrush (and associated) people (ie most immigrants) a hard time when she was Home Secretary. I also have it on good authority that the PM is convinced that the Brexit result was more about immigration than anything else. Of course, this might or might not be true.

On this basis, she might also believe that delivering Brexit - in any shape or form - will reduce immigration and thus secure her position as PM until retirement.

However, IMHO the UK population is inconsistent. According to the media, we condem the Gov for giving the Windrush people a hard time and we want them all to stay, but on the other according to my source and the referendum, we want Brexit in order to limit immigration.

When people are inconsistent, trouble usually follows.