The Hugo of streaming?
Posted by: charlesphoto on 14 June 2016
Ha, knew that would get your attention!
I was using my UQ1 for streaming only purposes to the DAC V1 via a good s/pdif cable, but was never entirely happy with the set up, esp as the UQ was mostly going to waste. My budget wasn't much, and I didn't want to just move over to another streamer, esp as the asynch USB on the V1 is one of its main features, and supposedly better sounding than coax. I considered a Mac Mini, but then started reading over on the Computer Audiophile forum raves about the forthcoming Sonore microRendu. So last week I got in on the second batch and have had one up and running since Friday with an iFi power supply until I get a proper linear power supply for it (probably the upcoming Uptone LPS based on charging ultracapacitors).
For those not in the know, the microRendu is about the size of a small flip phone, only connects ethernet in and USB out, and runs a small custom linux OS on an sd card that is accessed headless with a really simple and easy GUI. It was built with low noise hardware and the best sound throughput as the top priority. Took all of under five minutes to set up. It has several modes: Squeezelite, DLNA (regular and open home), NAA Roon/HQ player mode, airshare and I think maybe one other. I have mine running in upnp mode from my Vortexbox using the Lumin app as a controller. Currently also running Roon as a trial, but for what it costs and the hardware requirements its not for me at the moment. Cool app though, esp if you have a big collection.
From the moment I plugged the microRendu in I knew that it was game over. And it just keeps getting better as it burns in; I also added an Atlas Element USB cable that sounds really nice for the price. I think the likes of already fringe companies like Aurender and Auralic have got to be more than bit worried about what these even more fringe upstarts are doing. I'm not really the best person to be doing comparisons because I've never had the $ to change out gear like some do, or work my way up a heirarchy like Naim. But it really is extraordinarily impressive, made my old set up sound "broken" even (and I thought it sounded pretty damn good). I never thought I would have a hifi this good due to $. Lots of talk in hifi about "inky blackness" which I've never really experienced until now. Reverb esp - its like it just floats out into an empty void. A bit disconcerting at first actually! Also the balance is perfect - voices are right where they should be, piano sounds totally natural (the true test imo), nothing recesses or comes forward in any strange way. I was experiencing some fatigue before and now that's history. The only fatigue now is from staying up to late listening to music nonstop!!
So, if you're looking at streaming options and have a dac (or plan on getting one), then you should check out the mR. Imo its' this years Hugo - a serious game changer, at least as far as where USB audio is at. For me it's all I'll ever need in that regard. And the UQ is now happy and wonderful sounding where it should be, in my basement office, utilizing all of its functions.
Chris Shorter posted:nbpf posted:I am in Berlin since almost 20 years and I never managed to visit Prague, shame on me. I'll have to take that route and come by with an RPi and some music! Thanks, nbpfHi NBPF
A visit to the CR is long overdue for you then! It would also be interesting to compare the DigiOne with the HiFiBerry Digi+ that I also have.
Actually, we don't live in Prague but in a small village close to the German border - the journey from Berlin is about an hour less than to Prague. The Berlin-Prague express train stops at Usti nad Labem (the last time I used it, it was called the "Karl Maria von Weber Express", after the composer who is buried in Dresden). The D8 autobahn passes close by as well.
If you'd like to organise a trip, I'm on PFM with the same username and you can PM me there.
Chris
Usti nad Labem looks like a beautiful place for a short visit to the Czech Republic or for a stop on the way to Prague, thanks Chris! I know PFM as a progressive rock band from the eighties, what does it mean now? Best, nbpf
Mr Underhill posted:
I am only a couple of days in with the uR. The first thing I noticed was the bass, not just slightly more evident but also the texture. Over the time it has been settling in I have noticed that vocals are a bit clearer, the soundstage is wider and deeper. Positioning within the soundstage is more precise.
glad to hear it, Señor U!
i'm sore tempted by the ultraRendu -- and hey, it matches my other gear... oh, and i swapped my previous 2Qute for the Hugo 2, and the lack of galvanic isolation on the latter is just crying out for an even better streamer, right? i'm such an addict.
the Hugo 2 is pretty boss, by the way.
jon honeyball posted:I have the hiface evo 2 and have found it fantastically unreliable at doing a conversion from USB to spdif (either wired or optical)
Most of the time it simply wont connect. So its gathering dust on the shelf
Thanks for reporting, I have a hiface evo 1 and I was thinking of opgrading to the evo 2 when it came out. Meanwhile I would rather go for a Schiit Eitr or for a Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB. Still trying to figure out whether the DigiOne sounds better, worse, or just like the hiface evo 1 in my system ...
nbpf posted:Usti nad Labem looks like a beautiful place for a short visit to the Czech Republic or for a stop on the way to Prague, thanks Chris! I know PFM as a progressive rock band from the eighties, what does it mean now? Best, nbpf
Hi nbpf
PFM = Pink Fish Media - the HiFi forum. It has personal messaging, which the Naim forum does not. I noticed you have an account there.
Chris
Chris Shorter posted:nbpf posted:Usti nad Labem looks like a beautiful place for a short visit to the Czech Republic or for a stop on the way to Prague, thanks Chris! I know PFM as a progressive rock band from the eighties, what does it mean now? Best, nbpfHi nbpf
PFM = Pink Fish Media - the HiFi forum. It has personal messaging, which the Naim forum does not. I noticed you have an account there.
Chris
Thanks Chris, I have sent you a PM on PFM with my coordinates. Best, nbpf
For those interested in the RPi + Allo DigiOne combination, I have posted a short comparison with my current souce (a fitPC3 + M2Tech HiFace Evo, both powered by TP PSUs) in https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/naim-uniti-core-hifiberry-digi-pro-allo-digione-and-spdif-dacs. Best, nbpf
Talking about "Hugo of streaming"; After moving from ND5X to microrendu; Had to have my Hugo DAC repaired (warranty) to feed my Naim NAC 282 and using as source the microrendu (+LPS-1 +DC4 + CuriousUSB); Just watched an enthusiastic review of the Sms 200 ultra. Might be the top of network streaming devices at this moment or it might be very individual ?! Anyone with experience/opinion and preference concerning these sources ? any feedback appreciated. Best Peter
nbpf posted:For those interested in the RPi + Allo DigiOne combination, I have posted a short comparison with my current souce (a fitPC3 + M2Tech HiFace Evo, both powered by TP PSUs) in https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/naim-uniti-core-hifiberry-digi-pro-allo-digione-and-spdif-dacs. Best, nbpf
The Allo DigiOne + RPi got a complimentary write up on Darko.
Bowers posted:Talking about "Hugo of streaming"; After moving from ND5X to microrendu; Had to have my Hugo DAC repaired (warranty) to feed my Naim NAC 282 and using as source the microrendu (+LPS-1 +DC4 + CuriousUSB); Just watched an enthusiastic review of the Sms 200 ultra. Might be the top of network streaming devices at this moment or it might be very individual ?! Anyone with experience/opinion and preference concerning these sources ? any feedback appreciated. Best Peter
Hi Bowers,
I confess I decided to stick with Sonore over SOtM as I like their support and supply of an upgrade route for historic customers, and of course the cheaper price of the ultraRendu assisted. I have seen no direct comparison between the two.
The ultraRendu is a definite step up on the mR. If you choose to go the SMS200 ultra route I'll be interested in what you think, lots of positive reviews.
Mr Underhill posted:nbpf posted:For those interested in the RPi + Allo DigiOne combination, I have posted a short comparison with my current souce (a fitPC3 + M2Tech HiFace Evo, both powered by TP PSUs) in https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/naim-uniti-core-hifiberry-digi-pro-allo-digione-and-spdif-dacs. Best, nbpf
The Allo DigiOne + RPi got a complimentary write up on Darko.
Yes, the Darko review was one of the reasons why I came to try the DigiOne. As reported, it is good but not as good as my current system, in my view. I guess others might disagree and prefer the DigiOne or find it just different. I guess that's the problem with all these interfaces: they do have an impact but this is very subjective and system dependent. Perhaps Archimago will come out with some device-specific measurements. Anyway, I am going to keep the DigiOne and perhaps give it another try at a later point. I would have liked to test the Schiit Eitr as a replacement for the M2Tech but they are out of stock since weeks. Best, nbpf
No matter if you go with Sonore or SotM, the choice in power supply is crucial. I would look beyond the iFi - it will get one 50% of the way there, but something like an Uptone LPS-1 will make for a much bigger, more mature, sound. The choice in DC cable is also important. No need to break the bank on either, but the ps is the heart of it - which is pretty much the major cost (imo) of the Naim streamers. With these lo-power DC units, that expense is out-sourced, so best to budget it in if choosing to go this route. It's still pennies on the dollar compared to Naim streamers though.
Spot on Charles.
One thing I have found interesting with the ultraRendu (uR) is that it plus my Sbooster make a MUCH better fist of things than the same LPSU and the microRendu (mR).
I have just received a Chinese R-Core (zero-zone) LPSU with a low noise output, claims less than 13µV at 24VDC, mine is running at 8VDC. Do I hear this ......oh YES.
With the mR I found the order of LPSUs to be: LPS-1 + R-core = R-core > Sbooster > IFI 9v.
LPS-1 + R-core had the most transparent effect, you could hear further into the music. With just the R-core the transparency was reduced, but the music had more heft, was just more enjoyable.
The uR + Sbooster is better than the mR and any supporting LPSU + DC cable. Although with the Sbooster there is a slight feel of etched treble VERY occassionally.
The uR + low noise R-core is rather impressive, and I have only had it running for a few hours. Initially there was a slightly uncomfortable feeling to some music. I then reflected on my experience with grounding and so placed a cable between the new LPSU and my pre-amps grounding pin; sorted.
Once I have let the new R-Core bed in properly I will:
1. Use it to power the LPS-1 and see what I think; and
2. Use the R-Core with a 1A LT3045, which should lower the PSRR again.
M
Well, I removed the LPS-1 from powering my RP3, running LMS, and then quickly replaced it - the sound quality dropped by that much.
Yesterday I put in a 1A 7.1v LT3045 between the R-Core powering the uR; and, I put in a 0.5A 5v to replace the R-Core powered LPS-1 powering the RP3.
The effect of the 7.1v LT3045 was similar to the LPS-1 when powering the uR. Some interesting detail was highlighted, but musical heft was reduced.
I ended up with the following:
8v low noise R-Core PSU > uR; and
8v R-Core > 0.5A 5v LT3045 > RPi3 (LMS).
This gives me the best results. All using short quad-star silver/teflon cables.
M
Just in case it went unnoticed: Sonore have announced a new USB to SPDIF (BNC) + LVDS i2s (HDMI) interface on their sponsored CA forum. The device can be powered with 7-9 VDC and will be called ultraDigital.
Sonore (& Uptone Audio) have become very knowledgeable about the USB interface. I wouldn't be surprised if that ultraDigital is what its name suggests it is.
I have been running the UltraRendu for a day or so. When I got it I could not get it to show on the LAN. After several hours of frustration I decided to try the mR 2.5 SD and it worked! The only difference is that the GUI reports it an mR. I guess it was corrupted! The underlying s/w (mR or uR) is apparently the same. Hopefully a replacement Ultra SD 2.5 will shortly be on its way, having talked to Sonore about it.
In the meantime I have it plugged into the switch after a couple of FMCs for the setup (DLNA mode) and the first listen. I have it powered by the Ultracap LPS-1 fed by the Mean Well smps and plugged into the DAC-V1 with a standard USB cable. The first thing I noticed was the restoration of the ' fullness' of the sound, which the mR had 'thinned' somewhat compared to the DAC-V1 USB direct. The same smoothness as the mR/USPCB/ISO Regen, is evident. There is more definition/detail in the sound stage as well. Timing 'feels' better and a tad more low level resolution is evident.
The tweaks will follow in the next week or so, but I am really wondering if they are needed at all! A significant achievement by Sonore - well done!
B.
ultraRendu
I had issues with my uR when it arrived, sorted by Jesus (replying to me on a Sunday) and Martin from Vortexbox UK.
I agree Brilliant, it is more full bodied, resolves more detail & is worth the extra over and above the mR.
What are your thoughts on teh USBPCB?
M
Mr Underhill posted:Well, I removed the LPS-1 from powering my RP3, running LMS, and then quickly replaced it - the sound quality dropped by that much.
Yesterday I put in a 1A 7.1v LT3045 between the R-Core powering the uR; and, I put in a 0.5A 5v to replace the R-Core powered LPS-1 powering the RP3.
The effect of the 7.1v LT3045 was similar to the LPS-1 when powering the uR. Some interesting detail was highlighted, but musical heft was reduced.
I ended up with the following:
8v low noise R-Core PSU > uR; and
8v R-Core > 0.5A 5v LT3045 > RPi3 (LMS).This gives me the best results. All using short quad-star silver/Teflon cables.
M
...........No.
I have mention LT3045s in the posts above a few times, so I thought I would go into a bit more detail. These are NOT some form of original discovery by me but have been mentioned by one person in particular but now on a couple of fora.
In essence they are a small PCB that cleans the DC reducing noise:
To quote:
'One of the Major keys to the LT3045 SQ success is it's PSRR. Again PSRR stands for Power Supply Ripple Rejection - the ability to filter our ripple (noise and grunge on the AC line) from passing through the LDO regulator to the DC output. This is critical. So if a LPS uses an R-core transformer the R-core will act as a first stage of very high freq Ac noise suppression something a toroidal does not do, second the PS smoothing caps act as a second line of defense (and why PSRR here is important), the most critical filtering stage comes with the LDO regulator. The very old school LM317T has virtually no high freq PSRR.'
I am not aware that these come in nice pre-made boxes, so it is a matter of buying the cards, from the bay in my case, project boxes and DC female connectors. A bit of soldering and voila.
The cards themselves need to be set to the output voltage that you require, and they can handle. In my case I was able to buy:
2 x 0.5A and 5V; and
2 x 1A and 7V1.
The other day I made up the boxes and used one between my LPS-1 (7V) & RPi3 (5V LT) and one between my low noise R-Core (8V) and ultraRendu (7V1 LT). Initially the uR booted OK, then quickly stopped. I rebooted and it now worked OK for about four hours before stopping again. I noted the SQ mentioned above, 'Some interesting detail was highlighted, but musical heft was reduced', and removed the LT3045
I did some other changes yesterday and had a cogitate while doing so. I would have preferred to have bought a LT3045 1A 7V5, if one had been available. I suspect the uR is more sensitive to voltage input than the microRendu, and that the short quad-star silver/teflon cables I used presented just enough resistance to dip the voltage below 7VDC. So, I made up a 5cm straight silver Teflon DC-DC cable, non-quad, and put the LT back into the chain.
Heft:
I am sure that, like me, you have read comments where people have commented that the amount of apparent bass has reduced, but the ability to follow the bass line has increased. That the bass euphony has masked other elements in the music. Before with the LT in circuit I was hearing additional detail and I could undoubtedly follow the bass line easily, but also I felt that what was being presented was subtly anaemic. Now with the shorter simpler DC-DC cable the uR has run for twelve hours without a hitch, and that bit of a stripped out feel has gone.
So, what were the other changes I made? Following a recipe developed by a rabid experimenter elsewhere I had introduced a StarTech USB extender into my system. I was running four 512GB fast USB sticks from the LEX. The cook had tried using a cheap USB3.0 hub, and found that the SQ improved ......when, you use: Good DC source and a good quality USB cable. So I bought the ingredients and powered the hub from my LPS-1, also powering the RPi3, via another LT3045 (0.5A, 5V).
Qobuz vs Local
I have been amazed at how good Qobuz can sound, really excellent. Good local files are probably marginally better, I will struggle to describe why - and will end up making statements that are too bald. Having instituted the changes mentioned above I feel that there is a tad more clear water between Qobuz & my local files; assuming that te quality of the files being played is the same. I can easily 'prove' the superiority either way by carefully selecting the 'right' files.
If you are using DC powered devices, and the output falls within those that are output by a LT3045, AND you are up for a bit of soldering, then I would strongly recommend giving them a go. OBVIOUSLY, these are electrical devices and if you have ANY doubts then get someone knowledgeable to build and test them for you.
M
M
Thanks for the ebay tip on the LT3045. I had looked at Linear's website but had not seen the 1A version, just tips on how to parallel the 500mA.
The USPCB works really well with the mR and the Regens and I suspect it would be hard to beat with any cable. As a package it is rigid of course (so there are limits on setup) and the finish is not pretty, due to the heat shrink over the PCB (with a cutout for the tiny switch) - but it keeps the cost down I guess. I aim to try it in due course with the uR.
B.
PS - for those interested in the one box solution (uR + their modified Signature ps), = Signature Rendu SE. There is a review of it on audiostream by Mike Lavorgna. It is not cheap and its price just went up by more than 10%!?!
Hi Brilliant,
Have you tried the John Swenson ground shunt trick yet? Go over to CA and in the Uptone forum look for the “SMPS and grounding” thread. I have shunts on everything DC now, though it’s supposed to really mostly work on a Netgear switch (FS or GS 105, 108) with the cables in certain ports). Anyway, it’s totally transformed my system for the price of a few adapters and hardware store plugs (the wire I had laying around). Taken all of the sibilance in my system away.
What boxes do you use for the LT3045’s? Can you post a pic? Thanks, CP
Hi CP,
Thanks for mentioning that. I have followed JS posts on his research with interest. I have not tried the 'ground shunts' as I had removed all smps in my music room setup. However I do have a few in other rooms which I should look at.
I have not used the LT3045 personally. Hopefully Mr Underhill can answer your last query!
B.
Ah yes, sorry getting you confused. I found using the shunts even with my HDPLEX charging the LPS-1 and downstream fiber media converter to make a difference. I also swear our Roku’s look and sound better, but who knows. I’m not one to A/B things - just make the change and if it doesn’t sound worse, move on.
Interesting observation with the HDplex.- could explain in part why I also find different LPS-1 charging PSs to affect the sound when used with the mR.
Well, if you read that thread, John and Alex finally admit that what one is charging the LPS-1 does actually make a difference - it’s just that they didn’t have access to testing equipment that could detect that, but John Swenson has finally built a test rig and it does kick in and through the LPS-1, but only the high impedance noise.
I have to say it’s like a new stereo was delivered, all for the princely sum of $61 for a handful of adapters and some Home Depot plugs. Really over the moon with the sound now.
I may not have got all of the thread - may have to wander back over there and re-read/update!
Hi Charles,
I use small plastic project boxes with clip on lids.Labelled as a five pack of:
Plastic Electric Power Protector DIY Junction Box 100mmx60mmx25mm.
I bought the DC connectors via Amazon, I drilled suitably sized holes and attached them. The chap I bought the LTs from soldered on the connecting blocks on request. That meant I had to simply cut wires to length, screw them into the blocks and solder them onto the appropriate DC connector & test.
The LT are small, so they are held in place by the soldered wires.
Thanks for the reminder about the Swenson earthing loom (!). Set it up last night and tried it this morning. Definitely small differences, not sure if it is an improvement. HAS made me decide to spend some time and money sorting out my power arrangements. Just seen your recommendation to wire in the LPSUs - I do this in my HiFi by ruunning earthing cables back to my pre-amp, I'll try this with the LPSUs in the loft - I have an earthing point on my rack.
M