Bitcoin

winkyincanada posted:

DrMark posted:

Yes, I have weighed the ownership vs rental conundrum and included the "carrying cost" of owning, which as you pointed out can be significant. There is also the mortgage interest deduction, which plays into the financials a little. But at present, it is a more than comfortable place to live for just me, although my desire to leave Charlotte at some point may win out; need the proper opportunity before "chucking it all".

However, I owned a small house while I was in pharmacy school, and ended up "upside down" in that post-2008, courtesy of the banking criminals. (Fortunately, I unloaded that headache a year ago.) And make no mistake, they are criminals no less odious than Al Capone. Being charitable, they are less criminal and more incompetent - hard to tease the 2 qualities apart. Read The Big Short if you haven't already. If you drive carelessly at high speed and ignore common sense driving rules, you may not have intended to kill anyone, but you are now still a criminal nonetheless when you do kill someone. (And in fact, you were before you ran the poor chap over). So many bank execs who should be in jail, but the US  "Justice" Department just couldn't seem to find anything to press charges on.

The deck is stacked against everyone, except the 1%. That is why they keep doing what they're doing because the rigged game is in their favor, and cheating carries no consequences.  Any benefit to the masses is almost "collateral benefit". But they have engaged in insanity to cover up their insanity, and the piper will be paid.

Here is a presentation (about 30 minutes) from an investment conference, that pretty well sums up where we are. He is a gold proponent, albeit not obnoxiously so (and not a "gold bug"), but more to the point he demonstrates the folly of where we are now. Mentions cryptos as well, and actually uses the Vancouver RE market in one example.

https://stansberrystreaming.co.../grant-williams.html

I don't think this link violates any forum rules.

We're in a dangerous place in the world economy, and this time is NOT going to be different. Pinning down the when is the tricky part...but if I could do that I would quit my job tomorrow.

I've read "The Big Short" (and seen the movie). I also recommend "Crash of the Titans". I have no love for bakers and financiers either. Banking has moved so far from the original simple principle of deferring consumption to provide for investment that it is unrecognisable. Trading for profit in a less-than-zero-sum high-speed market is just means of stealing the underlying assets, as are opaque derivatives and other complex financial engineering products. De-centralised transactions using block-chain may be able to short-cut and challenge the status quo, but I'm sceptical for a couple of reasons:

1) The current use of crypto seems to be almost exclusively a means of speculation. The degree to which the technology is being used to actually replace conventional transaction systems is trivial.

2) The underpinning "proof-of-work" authentication is egregiously inefficient by design. For these systems to become significant, they need to be much more efficient. A different mathematical authentication principal needs to be applied. Wasting huge amounts of energy and computing power just to run the computational systems is arguably more wasteful than paying the same costs to bankers. At the current trajectory, the block-chain craze will do major environmental damage to the planet if it becomes large enough. 

https://arstechnica.com/tech-p...nsumption-explained/

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake 

Bitcoin miners, speculators and traders are in many ways no different to bankers. They seek wealth through activities that have little or no intrinsic value. They are out to steal from the people who are actually doing worthwhile things.

When I'm feeling my most sceptical, I fear that Kevin and Simon are right, but that the accelerating rush to steal value by mining crypto will continue unchecked and precipitate an environmental collapse. All the efforts in energy efficiency and renewable energy will all crumble ahead of the crypto steamroller.

The West is falling behind Asia in terms of mass adoption.

Many cryptos are moving to Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work.

The damage done to humanity by the legacy banking system is many orders of magnitude greater than the potential environmental damage of blockchain.

I am a bitcoin speculator/miner and I am not out to "steal from people."  In fact, I am doing my best to keep as many bitcoins as possible out of the hands of the bankers. Saving humanity from bankers seems like a pretty worthwhile activity.

Kevin Richardson posted:

 

Many cryptos are moving to Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work.

 

Which ones?

DAT! DAT!

Look at that thing go!

winkyincanada posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

 

Many cryptos are moving to Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work.

 

Which ones?

Ethereum

Kevin Richardson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

 

Many cryptos are moving to Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work.

 

Which ones?

Ethereum

I'll admit to understanding even less about Ethereum than BTC.

winkyincanada posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

 

Many cryptos are moving to Proof of Stake vs Proof of Work.

 

Which ones?

Ethereum

I'll admit to understanding even less about Ethereum than BTC.

Ethereum is a  platform for decentralized/distributed applications based on smart contracts. Some believe ETH will be the "winner" in the long term.

Arrrggghhhh.... for sone reason my spellcheck is no longer working.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Ethereum is a  platform for decentralized/distributed applications based on smart contracts. Some believe ETH will be the "winner" in the long term.

Arrrggghhhh.... for sone reason my spellcheck is no longer working.

Yep, that's what I've read. But I still don't understand how it works nor why an ETH has any particular price (other than an expectation that someone will pay that for it in the future).

From a financial newsletter I get:

"Moore’s Law: Intel co-founder Gordon Moore realized early on that chip-based computing power would double every year for the foreseeable future.

Conceived in 2007, part of bitcoin’s value was the difficulty in solving the latter parts of its cryptographic math equation.

Solving each layer of the equation generates a reward. The reward is 12.5 bitcoins. There are only 21 million possible bitcoins. Known as “miners,” computers cracking the code have about 80% of the bitcoin so far.

Experts estimate the final bitcoin reward will come somewhere between the year 2100 and 2150. They’re wrong.

The advent of quantum computing power will render bitcoin’s cryptography meaningless. Based on my research, I’d guess the final equation on bitcoin’s blockchain won’t survive past 2020.

Intel has a 17-qubit chip in development. That’s enough computing power to map the human genome or crack the highest-level espionage encryption used today in minutes… maybe seconds. Google promises a 49-qubit chip soon. Then there’s the Chinese who treat this sector with the seriousness of the Manhattan Project. You can see where this is going…

The computers that “mine” for bitcoin equations have no other purpose. They’re application-specific integrated circuits—also known as ASIC hardware.

I know of one firm solving equations on the Ethereum blockchain. The company owns tens of thousands of limited-scope computers. They’re strung together with wires housed in racks. When they’re all running the facility sounds like a beehive.

These facilities consume a tremendous amount of electricity. They’re obsolete in months as newer, faster technology comes to market. What was difficult in 2007 is ubiquitous today. The complexity that helped create bitcoin’s value is no match for Moore’s Law."

Well if quantum computing somehow renders Bitcoin redundant, then that means most if not all computer, IT and digital security world wide will become redundant... which will be far more devasting to current mankind and the current world.... good bye internet banking for example...

i must admit we use quantum computing in my profession, and the technology is used to protect security integrity rather than being able to disrupt cryptography. 

Now distributed technologies technologies that use proof of work technologies with controlled inflation linked to increasing mining complexity, such as Bitcoin, rely on the assumed increased computing processor ability over time... the adoption of quantum computing is just part of that natural processing evolution.

Simon

Kevin Richardson posted:

Arrrggghhhh.... for sone reason my spellcheck is no longer working.

Throughout the length of this thread - how would you know?

A friend once defined an intellectual as someone who, while reading Finnegans Wake, turned two pages together - and noticed.

"riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passencore rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to tauftauf thuart peatrick: not yet, though venissoon after, had a kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all's fair in vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface."

DrMark posted:

From a financial newsletter I get:

"Moore’s Law: Intel co-founder Gordon Moore realized early on that chip-based computing power would double every year for the foreseeable future.

Conceived in 2007, part of bitcoin’s value was the difficulty in solving the latter parts of its cryptographic math equation.

Solving each layer of the equation generates a reward. The reward is 12.5 bitcoins. There are only 21 million possible bitcoins. Known as “miners,” computers cracking the code have about 80% of the bitcoin so far.

Experts estimate the final bitcoin reward will come somewhere between the year 2100 and 2150. They’re wrong.

The advent of quantum computing power will render bitcoin’s cryptography meaningless. Based on my research, I’d guess the final equation on bitcoin’s blockchain won’t survive past 2020.

Intel has a 17-qubit chip in development. That’s enough computing power to map the human genome or crack the highest-level espionage encryption used today in minutes… maybe seconds. Google promises a 49-qubit chip soon. Then there’s the Chinese who treat this sector with the seriousness of the Manhattan Project. You can see where this is going…

The computers that “mine” for bitcoin equations have no other purpose. They’re application-specific integrated circuits—also known as ASIC hardware.

I know of one firm solving equations on the Ethereum blockchain. The company owns tens of thousands of limited-scope computers. They’re strung together with wires housed in racks. When they’re all running the facility sounds like a beehive.

These facilities consume a tremendous amount of electricity. They’re obsolete in months as newer, faster technology comes to market. What was difficult in 2007 is ubiquitous today. The complexity that helped create bitcoin’s value is no match for Moore’s Law."

2020? If quantum computers are used in mining then the difficulty will automatically adjust to ensure new blocks are generated every 10 minutes. Also after every n blocks the mining reward is cut in half. Whoever wrote this does not understand the bitcoin protocol.

A quantum attack on the blockchain is a possibility but there is already a proposal for changing to a quantum resistant algorithm. 

Wasn't endorsing or refuting; just sharing something pertinent to the thread.

BTC tickling $20,000.

Another week gives us another ATH for Bitcoin $19,500 @ GDAX! LTC also holding strong just above $300.

Simon's recent 552 purchase got me thinking.... Im  going to be trading some coins for an upgrade to my HiFi. Nothing too exciting;  a new DAC and a ex dem 250DR. 

Adam Meredith posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Arrrggghhhh.... for sone reason my spellcheck is no longer working.

Throughout the length of this thread - how would you know?

A friend once defined an intellectual as someone who, while reading Finnegans Wake, turned two pages together - and noticed.

"riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passencore rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to tauftauf thuart peatrick: not yet, though venissoon after, had a kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all's fair in vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface."

 

In college I tried to read Joyce but.... damn....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsaU4-AUW2Y

If CNN gets anything right, it is purely by accident. CNN is a bigger fraud than cryptocurrency could ever hope to be.

Nothing but one of the propaganda arms of TPTB, Deep State, neocons, or whatever you want to call it.

Whatever Bitcoin or cryptos turn out to be, CNN, FOX, MSNBC et al will not have any meaningful input for the discourse. Pure infotainment trash. Their only value is in finding out what "they" want you to think.

DrMark posted:

If CNN gets anything right, it is purely by accident. CNN is a bigger fraud than cryptocurrency could ever hope to be.

Nothing but one of the propaganda arms of TPTB, Deep State, neocons, or whatever you want to call it.

Whatever Bitcoin or cryptos turn out to be, CNN, FOX, MSNBC et al will not have any meaningful input for the discourse. Pure infotainment trash. Their only value is in finding out what "they" want you to think.

I have no idea whether or not any of the so called crypto currencies will remain for any length of time, nor do I have any problem with people gambling their money as long as they don't commit themselves to losing more money than they can afford. I also have to admit that I find this thread quite illuminating for the most part, but I do have a huge problem with the premise put forward by one or two that the evil banking system across the globe needs to be brought down and the crypto currencies are just possibly the knights in shining armour that will carry out the glorious deed. 

However, the above post is just a little too surreal for me to absorb without comment. I had to google TPTB ('The Powers That Be' - at least I am familiar with this pretty innocuous acronym), 'Deep State' and 'neocons'. Even having looked them up, I don't pretend to understand the context in which the terms are used by a number of people. Do you have a future state of Government in mind to replace the Liberal Elite, the Deep State and the neocons, or would you just like to see our governments brought crashing down and hope beyond hope that something better will rise from the ashes replace them? Is any part of the 'conventional ' News Media worthy of respect, or are they all (like CNN, Fox and MSNBC) part of the propaganda arms of the Deep State and neocons?

What is the root of your scepticism, and is your scepticism centred wholly on TPTB and the media in the US, or do you believe it is a world wide phenomenon? I'd love to hear your viewpoint.

What you ask for would require a small (or maybe not so small) book to explain.

The media in the USA is now controlled by 6 corporations, whereas just 35 years ago it was over 50 companies.

A few examples, but that will be all because there is no way to explain it all in a forum post.

1) VW scammed the US environmental agency with their diesel car emissions, installing software that made it look like they were compliant. A scumbag move to be sure. Several execs were arrested, and one (a German citizen) sentenced. Total penalties were around $20 billion.

OTOH Wells Fargo bank opened accounts without customers’ knowledge, and charged fees on these accounts. This was a deliberate attempt to boost sales numbers. And just last month Wells Fargo was caught deliberately overcharging customers for exchanging foreign currencies. They made agreements to exchange currency at one low rate, and in some cases charged 26 times that amount.

They literally stole from customers. Guess how many executives went to prison? Zero. Wells Fargo paid $185 million in fines for the fake account scandal. The fact is Volkswagen and its executives made a very irresponsible move, which deserved punishment. But no one from Wells Fargo will go to jail despite intentional theft from customers. Seems like a double standard here when compared to U.S. treatment of the banking industry.

2) The entire financial crisis of 2008. How the f-bomb no one went to jail in that open scam is, incredible. I was going to say a mystery, but it isn't a mystery at all. The only decent piece of journalism on it that I saw was a 2 part Frontline, that left me wanting to reach through my computer screen and strangle Assistant US Attorney General Lanny Breuer - and his scumbag boss Eric Holder.

Now to the war machine, fully supported by the presstitutes.

3) WMD - a lie from the beginning that cost many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis their lives, including untold thousands of children. Thousands of dead US servicemen and women, and a price tag for the US taxpayer at around $2 trillion. The NYT beat the war drum as hard and as loud as they could, with garbage like Thomas Friedman leading the way. They never have retracted or apologized for what was willfully published as a lie.

4) The litany of lies regarding the war in Syria are too many too list. But here are a few

a) The lines of tanker trucks from ISIS-controlled oil fields delivering oil through Turkey to who knows where, providing ISIS with much-needed revenue. When Russian satellites exposed it, the US had to admit it was true - now given that our systems are WAY more advanced than the Russians, how did we not know? Simple answer. We did. But did our "free and open press" make a big deal about it? Nope - just ran a soft-peddled version of the story enough to say they covered it, and then pushed it off the news cycle as quickly as they could...look, Kim Kardashian got robbed!

b) Both saran gas attacks in Syria that the US press rushed to blame on the Assad government, have almost certainly been shown to be false flags from the US-backed "rebels", hoping to curry additional military support. Again, as soon as the holes in the narrative start to come out, the story dies a quick death, and once again, Boobus Americanus is none the wiser.

c) The US loves to bloviate about sovereign borders, but only when it suits their purpose. At this moment, we have a US military base INSIDE Syria. If you go to the UN, the person sitting there is from the Assad government. Irrespective of anyone's opinion about Assad, his IS the current standing government in that country, and we are there without permission. Crickets from the press, who don't acknowledge the base exists.

5) Russiagate - has to be the story with the record number of retractions, as the MSM (with CNN leading the charge) publish irresponsible stories that later turn out to be 100% false. Of course, who cares, the retractions are small and quiet, while the lie gets re-tweeted all over the place. Mission accomplished. Yeah, Russia interferes in our democracy. Plus, no one interferes in the politics of other countries more than the USA. No one. NGOs stirring up trouble all across the globe. In Hungary, Montenegro, and Croatia right now especially.

6) The kill numbers from our "targeted" (yeah, right) drone program are well known to be seriously downplayed. But who cares? I got my X-Box and new car. Besides, they're mostly brown, and they are all the way over there. Where the hell is the "free press" on this one? We are murdering innocents (including children) by the thousands.

7) The proxy war in Yemen run by the Saudis on our behalf. We sell them the weapons and blockade the coast. Seven million people are in danger of starvation because of US policy, and no one in the "free press" seems to be able to report this. If I sell you a gun and tell you to shoot someone, I am as culpable as you are. No difference. But no coverage either.

8) When we "liberated" Raqqa, the US gave safe passage out to over 4,000 ISIS members with their families AND THEIR WEAPONS. US press? Nothing. How do we know? Amazingly, the BBC actually reported this one.

I could go on, but I won't. If you are a reporter and do your job as it should, you will have a VERY short career in this country. Ditto if you are anti-war. Just keep feeding the war and money machine and you will do just fine. Rule number one in life is "follow the money".  Joseph Goebbels would be SO jealous.

I shouldn't have asked, and much as I'd like to, I won't respond for fear of moving this thread into 'DT' type territory. 

Hmack posted:

DrMark posted:

If CNN gets anything right, it is purely by accident. CNN is a bigger fraud than cryptocurrency could ever hope to be.

Nothing but one of the propaganda arms of TPTB, Deep State, neocons, or whatever you want to call it.

Whatever Bitcoin or cryptos turn out to be, CNN, FOX, MSNBC et al will not have any meaningful input for the discourse. Pure infotainment trash. Their only value is in finding out what "they" want you to think.

I have no idea whether or not any of the so called crypto currencies will remain for any length of time, nor do I have any problem with people gambling their money as long as they don't commit themselves to losing more money than they can afford. I also have to admit that I find this thread quite illuminating for the most part, but I do have a huge problem with the premise put forward by one or two that the evil banking system across the globe needs to be brought down and the crypto currencies are just possibly the knights in shining armour that will carry out the glorious deed. 

However, the above post is just a little too surreal for me to absorb without comment. I had to google TPTB ('The Powers That Be' - at least I am familiar with this pretty innocuous acronym), 'Deep State' and 'neocons'. Even having looked them up, I don't pretend to understand the context in which the terms are used by a number of people. Do you have a future state of Government in mind to replace the Liberal Elite, the Deep State and the neocons, or would you just like to see our governments brought crashing down and hope beyond hope that something better will rise from the ashes replace them? Is any part of the 'conventional ' News Media worthy of respect, or are they all (like CNN, Fox and MSNBC) part of the propaganda arms of the Deep State and neocons?

What is the root of your scepticism, and is your scepticism centred wholly on TPTB and the media in the US, or do you believe it is a world wide phenomenon? I'd love to hear your viewpoint.

 

 

 

Which part is problematic: banking system is evil or crypto will white knight humanity by taking down the banks?

Hmack posted:

I shouldn't have asked, and much as I'd like to, I won't respond for fear of moving this thread into 'DT' type territory.

That person of whom we shall never speak is a witless moron with no real bearing on any of this, other than he accidentally spoiled their little neocon party. He couldn't find his rear end with two hands and a flashlight, which is quite remarkable considering his head is stuck there all the time.

But the crypto thing will be denigrated for as long as they can, and then they will try to usurp/coopt or ban it, because without total control of the money supply they have essentially no control. It will be another step in the demise of the US Dollar, on its trip to its intrinsic value.

That is why China is starting a Petroyuan backed by gold, as an alternative to the Petrodollar system, which (the Petrodollar) is why the US doesn't have any problem with human rights violations when they occur in SA. (Corporate interests are such a relieving salve for such issues.) But that bromance is souring also, so look for the presstitutes to suddenly start making a point about the barbaric nature of the Saudis when the time is right, irrespective of the fact that it has always been that way.  You can be a bloodthirsty tyrant...but you must be OUR bloodthirsty tyrant.

I fail to see how such a volatile token can be useful as a currency at present. Maybe in a few years when people have lost interest in it as a way of making money it might have some utility.

Whoah! BCH! All aboard the ride!

Kevin Richardson posted:

....     Saving humanity from bankers seems like a pretty worthwhile activity.

 

Not in my name.